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In Reply to: 45 parafeed SET vs. 845 transformer-coupled PP posted by Kurt Strain on June 11, 2000 at 12:53:37:
Of course this is a simplification, but if you look at the wider picture, the rave responses to tubes like the 10 and 45 are going in the same direction as less output. Is there any possibility that we are simply hearing the benificial effects of less amplification factor?
Hi Andy,Power and Amplification factor are unrelated. The 45, 2A3 and 300B all have a low Amplification factor (around 3.5 - 4) while the VT-25/10 has a higher Amplification Factor (8). The well reknowned WE437 which makes a nice 1.5 Watt single Valve Amp (or the VT-Omega/6S45PE) has a huge Amplification Factor (42 or 52 respectively).
Looking further and comparing internal structures of Valves I find that the more delicate the internat stuctures in a valve, the more delicate the Sound.
Comapring the Inductrial Strength Anode, Cathode and Grid on an 845 to the insides of a 45, WE437A or 6S45PE shows dramatic differences. I believe here we hear the same effects as with transistor Amplifiers.
The best sounding Trasistor Amp's I have come across all have low power, use single pairs (or single) modest power output Transistors. All else for more power sounds worse.
The other side is also drivability. The 45 needs 100 V Peak-Peak for full output, the 845 in excess of 300 V Peak-Peak. This maens Driver Circuits for the 845 need to have more gain and more Voltage Swing ability. At the same time they need to deliver more current due to high capacitance and grid current.
This basically means that a simple 1.5 Watt with a 45 is very easy to design and get to work well. On the other hand 845's are hard work, very hard work and at the same time even at their best do not sound all that good. That is just the way life works.
It is a really simple rule and seems to work reliably for all Amp's Se-Valve, PP-Valve and Transistors:
The higher the output power the worse the sound, given equal skills of the designer.
So basically, you can have good sound or (relatively) high power, never however both.
Ciao Thorsten
> This basically means that a simple 1.5 Watt with a 45 is very easy
> to design and get to work well. On the other hand 845's are hard
> work, very hard work and at the same time even at their best do not
> sound all that good. That is just the way life works.I'd agree with the statement about the 845 being hard to design with, but I'm (obviously) going to take issue with the statement about them not sounding good. Which 845 amp failed to impress you? I know you
liked the Bel Canto over the Cary 805 and loved the Ongaku , so it can't have been any of those? :-).-Joe.
Hi there,The Ongaku does not use the 845.
I have heard both Cary and Bel Canto 845 Amp's. Neither one really is on my "I like this" list. If you ABSOLUTELY need the power, they are both possible solutions with my take being that the Bel Canto has a better pwoer Delivery and bandwidth, also better transparency (note - this is NOT the integrated version with that f&%$ing Op-Amp & Silicon Volume control).
As I have also worked with friends on a variety of 845/813/211 Amplifiers (SE & PP) I must note again, the 845 does not sound very good as output Valve. If you do not need the additional Power, but if the Amp is played on a suitable high sensitivity speaker, non of the above valves offer a sound that can be compared to either 300B or 2A3, all of them sound very substantially worse.
Later T
I always enjoy reading your posts and I've learned a thing or two from them. I'm not sure if you realise this, but your opinion carries quite a lot of weight. It bothers me that you dismiss a whole range of SETs out of hand, when you have not compared like with like in the same setup at the same time.I can understand you might be enthused after listening to all those lovely low power triodes (I wish I could have been there myself), but if you didn't A/B with an 845 based amp in the same system at the same time and you're relying on a dealer demo, or demo of someone else's system from quite a while ago, then I don't think it's fair to state that 845s sound bad in comparison. You can do immense damage with off-the-cuff statements like that.
You know better than I, that the output tube is only one component in a system. The circuit design, component quality, driver stage, OPT, Power supply, yadda, yadda, yadda; are all vitally important in shaping the sound of an SET amp. The application is as importnat as the compoents used, if not more so.
I'm sure it's possible to build a bad-sounding 845 based amp, just as I'm sure it's possible to build a bad-sounding 300B or 2A3 amp. The output tube by itself does not dictate whether the amp will sound good or otherwiuse and it's false to claim that just because an amp uses Tube X it can't sound good. Also the partnering speakers have a HUGE effect on how an SET amp will sound (as you well know). How can you reasonably compare SET amps driving different speakers? I would not be able to do that.
> The Ongaku does not use the 845.
Indeed, it uses 211s. I should have been more specific. Still, the few comparisons I have found between the 211 and 845 in the same amp favor the 845 as being harmonically richer and more dynamic. Does this make the 211 a worse tube and the Ongaku a worse amp then my Bel Canto? Of course not! It's all in the application.
I'm going to try some NOS 211s. If they don't sound as good to me, I can say that, in my amp, the 211s THAT I TRIED did not sound as good to me as the 845. But I'm not about to assume that the 211 is in general a worse sounding tube, period, or can never be made to sound good. Such generalizations would be both unwarranted and misleading without extensive listening tests in differnt circuits within the same system context.
> note - this is NOT the integrated version with that f&%$ing Op-Amp &
> Silicon Volume control).There you go with your generalizations and silly biases again! How do you know if you haven't listened to it seriously in a known system over an extended period?
-Joe.
Hi there,> I'm not sure if you realise this, but your opinion carries quite
> a lot of weight.It shouldn't really. The main answer is "go listen for yourself"
> It bothers me that you dismiss a whole range of SETs out of hand,
> when you have not compared like with like in the same setup at the
> same time.No, I have however worked EXTENSIVELY with all the valves under question and have a number of Examples of all comparably good to close the best possible PP and SE Amp's with these valves (845, 813, 211, 300B, 2A3). Morover, I have at least participated in the design of several Amp's using these valves.
This gives a range of experience that I believe allows me a reasonable judgement.
And I have had the Chance to hear the Ongaku and Baransu side by side driving Wilson Audio Watt3/Puppy2.... There was no comparison. On all but poer the Baransu was streets ahead.
> I can understand you might be enthused after listening to all those
> lovely low power triodes (I wish I could have been there myself),
> but if you didn't A/B with an 845 based amp in the same system at
> the same timeThat we did not. But I had more than one chance to compare 845/211/813 based Amplifiers against 300B/2A3 based Amplifiers. And rest assured, most of these where at the very least VERY WELL designed and executed.
There is a clear specific Sound to the 845, also to the 813. The 211 sounds a lot different, but all these Valves loose out on detail, immedicay and toanl balance against lower powered DHT based Amplifiers. Who knows, perhaps if we build an 845 Amp to produce only 4 - 6 Watt it will sound better than one designed for full power? But why bother if we can a 300B Amp instead?
> and you're relying on a dealer demo,
I rely on many sources, not only a single one.
> You know better than I, that the output tube is only one component
> in a system. The circuit design, component quality, driver stage,
> OPT, Power supply, yadda, yadda, yadda; are all vitally important
> in shaping the sound of an SET amp.Correct. Nevertheless, certain Valves have their inherent sound. This is certainly true for 2A3, 300B, 845, 211, 813, EL34, KT66, KT88, 6550 to name but a few. And this charateristic comes through, regardless of Amp design, PP vs SE, use of negative feedback or not.
> I'm sure it's possible to build a bad-sounding 845 based amp,
Yes. I'm less sure that it is possible to build one that can match the better 300B Amplifiers in timbral accuracy and immediacy, as well as detail and delciacy.
> Indeed, it uses 211s. I should have been more specific. Still, the
> few comparisons I have found between the 211 and 845 in the same amp
> favor the 845 as being harmonically richer and more dynamic.I do agree on this. The 211 has a quite "steely" cound.
> There you go with your generalizations and silly biases again!
Again, I heard of them side by side. The dgradation of sound in the "integrated" Version was apalling.
Later T
PS, due to my work on Friends systems, I know at least four very different Systems quite intimatly.... I even often take the more portable items from me or them around for a trip into several or all of these systems....
is enjoyment of the music. If the music is not enjoyable, what does anything else matter?We're not going to agree on this. I think the 845, as used in my amp, has greater dynamics, faster transient response, better bass, more extended and cleaner treble and flatter and truer frequency response and better image focus and soundstage than low power SETs I've heaed.
We might as well argue about what the best shade of Green is :-).
I think different output tubes do some things well, other things less well. There is no ideal tube. no ideal amp, no ideal speaker. You just have to try and choose the one that suits your tastes best and will drive your speakers of choice.
> > > note - this is NOT the integrated version with that f&%$ing Op-Amp
> > > Silicon Volume control).
> >
> > There you go with your generalizations and silly biases again!
>
> Again, I heard of them side by side. The dgradation of sound in
> the "integrated" Version was apalling.I'm at a loss to explain what you heard, except that if the amp had the standard issue Yugo POS 12AX7s, then it will sound less than stellar. Or it wasn't properly broken in. Did you try it with NOS 12AX7s or 5751s? There is a big improvement. Anyway, that's not how I heard it, or how I hear it. I have learned with all gear that I need to listen to it extensively for at least 2 weeks after proper break-in before coming to any conclusion. I find short term and dealer demos in foreign systems to be worse than useless.
> And I have had the Chance to hear the Ongaku and Baransu side by
> side driving Wilson Audio Watt3/Puppy2.... There was no comparison.
> On all but poer the Baransu was streets ahead.Just goes to show, there are no certainties in life :-).
-Joe.
Hi there,I just looked it up. Your Speakers. Maggies. No wonder.
Let me say it again like this:
"If YOU NEED more power than what is available from a 300B (this implying the use of Speakers of less than 92db/W/m Sensitivity having 8 Ohm or greater impedance in a modest size room) the 845 or 211 is a possible option."
Let me also note that my personal system clocks in at > 102db/W/m....
Now, with maggies I'd be strongly suspicious of any Amplifier having less than about 40 REAL Watts (and that is the Bel Canto) for reasonable listening.
As for the Amp's I heard, they where both stock, broken in, next to each other and running Cabasse Baltic/Stromboli (the eyes with their Subwoofers - I hope I got the names right). They where both well warmed up. The Poweramp was run with a Wadia's Control, the Integrated with it's silicon junk inside, the Wadias (I think 830) fully turned up.
The effect was most dramatic, the Integrated lost much of the soundstaging and detail abilities of the poweramp, turned agressive and in generall I had not thought much of the Poeramp, but the integrated was a lot worse.... Compared to a simple 300B Amp (like my own) on the same Speakers the Bel Canto lacked detail, immediacy and generally sounded veiled. There was more power available, but this was only noticable at very high volume levels.
Later T
> I just looked it up. Your Speakers. Maggies. No wonder.
>
> Let me say it again like this:
>
> "If YOU NEED more power than what is available from a 300B (this
> implying the use of Speakers of less than 92db/W/m Sensitivity
> having 8 Ohm or greater impedance in a modest size room) the 845 or
> 211 is a possible option."Well, yeah. It's more than just power, though. The fact that I wanted to drive Maggies had quite a lot to do with it, but believe me, if it hadn't also sounded damn good, as well as being loud enough, the amp wouldn't have stayed. I'm hardly likely to say "Gee. it sure is loud enough, although it sounds like doo-doo, but here's my $5k anyway". If all I wanted was LOUD I would have bought a 500W/ch SS PA Amp!
> The effect was most dramatic, the Integrated lost much of the
> soundstaging and detail abilities of the poweramp, turned agressiveYou've got me scratching my head again. "Agressive, lost soundstaging"? Nope can't relate to that at all, sorry. Sounds like it was broken, or there was some other problem in the chain. My amp just sits there and purrs like a pussycat. It does an audible vanishing act with the Maggies (which is pretty impressive considering they aren't exactly the most precise at imaging).
> and in generall I had not thought much of the Poeramp,
So, why would you recommend it, if you weren't impressed by it?
That puzzles me. Come on, Thorstem admit it, you DID like it at the time, it won't kill you :-).Anyway, enough, already. What I really wanted to know was how well the Baransus drove those Watt/Puppies?
Cheers, you've been a good sport.
-Joe.
Hi there,> So, why would you recommend it, if you weren't impressed by it?
Simply because for a 845 Amp it was quite good.
Please note that I can distinguish different levels of quality even in gear I strongly dislike on a fundamental level (Pannel Speakers of all sorts, CD-Players, Transistor and Push-Pull Amplifiers to name a few).
However, I have not heard ANY Amp using the 845 that I would live with on an extended basis, only one with a 211 (and even there I'd go with flying colours for the 300B Version).
However, I have a number of 845 Amp's that where not just not very good, but instead where DREADFULL. Compared to these the Bel Canto sounds quite nice. It is matter of the relative and absolute standing.
Basically, for what it is the Bel Canto Amp (without the Cirrus Logic CS3310 Volume Control) is a solidly build piece of Kit that makes pretty much the best out of what is available. That makes it worty for recommendation AS an 845 Amp for those who need the Power.
This is not saying that it is an Amplifier that can be recommended under all conditions and in every context. If you don't need the Power from the 845, there are Amp's out there that are MUCH better AND cheaper.
Clear now?
Later T
> Please note that I can distinguish different levels of quality even
> in gear I strongly dislike on a fundamental level (Pannel Speakers
> of all sortsWell, I would rather listen to a panel, electrostatic or full-range ribbon than the distortions and colorations of dynamic drivers in a box, any day of the week. The final piece of the puzzle will be to upgrade the Maggies to a medium efficiency (90dB/w or better) full- range ribbon. A low power SET would exclude the possibility of trying this kind of speaker.
-Joe.
Tjanks for clearing up your position. I appreciate a lare triode is not gong to be everyon;es cup of tea. But an awful lot of what you hear depends on the speakers you mate an SET amp with. I don't like talking about them in isolation, Just my POV.> If you don't need the Power from the 845, there are Amp's out there
> that are MUCH better AND cheaper.Cheaper? Yes. Better? Well, that's your opinion, and I have nime which is somewhat radically different.
-Joe.
Hi there,BTW, I did not say that 845 Amp's have no right to exist. If you need more than the 6 - 10W a 300B can produce because you insist on using speaker with low sensitivity (and as a result often high distortion, high amounts of compression and low transparency) then this is all you CAN get.
But if the power is not needed and both Amplifiers are well designed there is not even a comparison between a 300B and an 845 Amp....
The Difference (IMHO) is much larger than the 300B vs. 45 difference. And that one is close to "night & day"....
Later T
I quote Charlie Kittleson (Vacuum Tube Valley, Issue 9, Spring 1998) from his article VTV Listening Tests: 211/845s and 10K SE Transformers:"The larger 50-watt triode SE amplifiers have more power and realism than the majority of 300B amplifiers, based upon opinions expressed during listening tests at VTV. For the audio enthusiast who simply must have the most compelling sound, 211/845 amps are the way to go."
I don't think VTV use horns in their listening tests, but I suspect that there are some audiophiles who would prefer a 211/845 amp to a 2A3 or 300B, even on horns.
This is going back a ways in time, but don't forget about the original SET shootout that was published in TAS many years ago. The Komuro 845 was considered by the reviewer to be hands-down the best sounding amp in all regards. It was compared to a variety of 300B, 2A3, and triode wired pentode amps, all within the context of one system (same source, same speakers, etc). IMO, the 845 is the ultimate triode.
Andy,I'm glad you brought this up. I have 300B amps driving 104dbw speakers
and probably never use more than 1 watt. Sounds good to me.Point: Maybe by using very efficient speakers the power tube is not
working very hard and the result is sweeter sound.Flames?
Is'nt there something at the Klipsch web site that addresses this subject?
No Ed,This was just theoretical musing. But it seems to me that if the tube is not working hard, it should sound better. There was a thread that
discussed using solid state with Klipsch. Some SS amps are designed to
come into their own at about ten watts, below this they are very distorted and sound VERY bad with efficient speakers.
Most solid state amps are biased with enough current that the first watt or two is pure class A. Some like Parasound can put out 10-15w of class A before switching over to AB. Class A of tube or solid state is the most pure sound the amp will run in. If a SS amp sounds better at 10w output its just because its plain louder, because it is not in class A at higher outputs.
les if you want flames... you have got to try harder than that...how about...
with more efficient speakers, your output tube needs to swing less total voltage, therefore is operating as a more linear device?, and could the possible trend towards lower power tubes have anything to do with the added second order distortion that comes from swinging those extra volts masking other problems in the playback system?
hook, line and sinker are in the water now....
a few years back when this concept was proposed to me, i scoffed... i had a firm grasp on this whole tube thing, and i knew better... today, it seems i know far less than i thought i did then... and like the rest of us... am floundering looking for answers... but on a certain level the above comments sure seem to make a lot more sense.
just something to think about
dave
Dave,I think I agree completely. I am not a technician, but thought that when a tube is operated below max output it would sound better as it
is operating in a more linear fashion. In other words, if you want more power switch to a different triode and do not try to get a
'normal' 300B to beg for biscuits.
Not always true. But very often the case. Why? I think it's because big crowds of electrons get cranky and act up. Fewer electrons are just more easy to control than big crowds of them.
Kurt
With Euro 2000 engrossing football fans in Europe, your theory of "easier crowd control" is sounding very plausible. What do you do with hooligan electrons, incidentally?
to prevent them from making it to the game... er, plate.
Heath
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