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In Reply to: Re: Speaking of generalizations, I think we have both touched some truths. posted by Mark (S-D) on May 30, 2001 at 04:46:14:
Hi Mark, reading this thread has put my head in a spin.So what you are asking, not what necessarily people have responded with, is which of the 71a, 45 and 300b has which qualities, and once you know the answer to that question you will go ahead and work with the output tube of choice operating it to the best of your ability?
I haven't heard the 71a, but Jonathan Noble likes it even better than the globe 45, and I like his opinion always. But then you are seriously restricting available power.
The 45 I find more natural transition from it's lovely mids to a better high frequency realism as compared to 300b which too has lovely yet not believable midrange and compressed less believeable high frequency, once one has the benefit of hearing tubes that do that so much better such as the PX4 the 45 and the Svetlana SV811-10. One soon tires of the 300b. Not saying it can't be worked with or doesn't have it's place, but other tubes give you the realism of presentation with little external support. I did like the Western Electric 300b though and wouldn't bother with any other from my limited experience but all I've heard are VV, JJ, and Golden Dragon to compare against it.
However if you are in need of the power I would have to say you should consider the Western Electric 300b.
Now I seem to remember from other posts that you are against high voltages so you are limiting your choice to these tubes that are readily available. Don't forget the PX4 and PX25 with the proviso that you'll have to pay good money and future problems securing replacements are guaranteed. The advantages of these types are that like the 45 over the 300b they continue that lovely midrange into the higher registers.
Some say they are better at base too. As I don't have good base reproduction from my Lowthers I can't comment, all the above tubes can support the pathetic base of my Lowthers (50hz).
Follow Ups:
Hello,-- Hi Mark, reading this thread has put my head in a spin.
So what you are asking, not what necessarily people have responded with, is which of the 71a, 45 and 300b has which qualities, and once you know the answer to that question you will go ahead and work with the output tube of choice operating it to the best of your ability? --Yes, that is exactly what i will aim to do, and what i was trying to find out.
-- I haven't heard the 71a, but Jonathan Noble likes it even better than the globe 45, and I like his opinion always. But then you are seriously restricting available power. --A 45 would probably do better in my system, yet maybe a 71A would work just fine. My speakers are not super efficient. They are only 94db compared to speakers in the 99-103db range i usually see 71A'a used with. However, i have never listend past 94db at home. Usually, i listen at moderate levels.
-- The 45 I find more natural transition from it's lovely mids to a better high frequency realism as compared to 300b which too has lovely yet not believable midrange and compressed less believeable high frequency, once one has the benefit of hearing tubes that do that so much better such as the PX4 the 45 and the Svetlana SV811-10. One soon tires of the 300b. Not saying it can't be worked with or doesn't have it's place, but other tubes give you the realism of presentation with little external support. --
Since you have heard these and put the 45 in the same league as the PX4 in the midrange/treble quality the 45 is what i will use. The added power over the 71A may become useful sooner or later.
-- I did like the Western Electric 300b though and wouldn't bother with any other from my limited experience but all I've heard are VV, JJ, and Golden Dragon to compare against it. --
If i could afford WE 300B's, i'd get the PX4's :-)
-- However if you are in need of the power I would have to say you should consider the Western Electric 300b. --
I'm not too worried about power.
-- Now I seem to remember from other posts that you are against high voltages so you are limiting your choice to these tubes that are readily available. Don't forget the PX4 and PX25 with the proviso that you'll have to pay good money and future problems securing replacements are guaranteed. The advantages of these types are that like the 45 over the 300b they continue that lovely midrange into the higher registers. Some say they are better at base too. As I don't have good base reproduction from my Lowthers I can't comment, all the above tubes can support the pathetic base of my Lowthers (50hz). --
Maybe one day i can get a chance to hear those PX4 and PX25 tubes. Too much for me at the time.
Your response has solved a lot of questions regarding tube choices. Thanks for all the descriptions of those tubes.
-Mark
The 300B is still the King of direct heated tubes IMHO.Do you have experience with any of these triodes?I do,with the exception of the px4 and px25.I like all these tubes but in the long run I prefer the tone of the 300B.I don't think the 300B has a tubby sound at all,to me it's one of the most refined and mature tubes ever built.There is good reason for it's wide spread use.Do not take this post as negativly,because I mean it to have postive note.
I can't remember if it was you, but someone suggested I listen to the WE 300b, which I duly did and I was truly impressed. It seems reading below that Mark has need of three tubes in all, so I'm sure as there isn't really a competitor to the 300b that's 10 or 12 watts amongst the ones under discussion I'm sure it'll fit into his plans somewhere, I suppose he'd be tempted to go for the midrange driver and many would recommend that, but I'd say the 45 for the money does that better than the sub WE standard 300b's and he stated already he can't afford the WE, or would rather buy the PX4/25 at that money. I'm not too sure about that, perfect condition PX series don't come up very often, one major UK valve dealer gets about 3 a year and has a waiting list a mile long, at least the WE is a new tube and he can be more confident in longevity and replaceability. But maybe the sub WE 300b's for the base section?Mark has a very unusual request to most people here I'd say, certainly to me with one speaker per side, DHT SET isn't usually about tri amping, but good luck to him, maybe someone else out there has done this?
Regards
Paul Barker
-- The 300B is still the King of direct heated tubes IMHO.Do you have experience with any of these triodes? --I have heard the 300B, but in a valve-state type circuit. The sound was not too good untill i made it a all tube circuit. The tone was very warm and "pillow" sounding which i did like. The valve-state setup made the sound more "solid state dynamic", losing the "tone". (these were Tesla 300B's btw, not the classic WE)
-- I do,with the exception of the px4 and px25.I like all these tubes but in the long run I prefer the tone of the 300B.I don't think the 300B has a tubby sound at all,to me it's one of the most refined and mature tubes ever built. There is good reason for it's wide spread use.Do not take this post as negativly,because I mean it to have postive note. --
What don't you like about the 45 compared to the 300B?
Is the 45 "toneless"? What would you describe each tubes strong and weak points? I am actually tri-amping so i could use tube A on the bass, tube B on the mids and tube C on the treble. Using similar design ideas with each amp.thanks,
-Mark
Are you really heartset on triamping?I personally think this mucks up the sound but to each his own.Now 45 vs 300B.I've goofed with both these tubes for a while and they both are excellent.I think that the 45 is more detail orientated and the 300B is better all around.I've had some fun with adjusting the operating points on both tubes,with the 45 not changing much in signature but the 300B changing very nicely.I've run the 300B at 330v(270vgk)and running 20ma,10K load and I thought it sounded excellent at these points.I currentlty run my 300B's at 340v(280vgk) and with 40ma on the plate.They sound great and should last a long time at these points(Valve Art nickel plates,no WECO's as they are too exspensive for me).As for the others I thought the 71A sounds a little 2a3ish and I don't mean that in a positive way.The 811A I don't have a lot of experience with but from what little I have heard it came off as being a little sterile sounding.
-- Are you really heartset on triamping? --Yes. My drivers require 4th order filters and attenuation.
Passive does not sound as good to me with my drivers, mostly the midrange.-- I personally think this mucks up the sound but to each his own. --
Your talking about the different sonic signatures of each amp creating a tone imbalance correct?
I could always use the same or very similar amps. What system have you experimented with using multiple amps?
Did you compare the multi-amped speaker with the same amps vs different amps? Where were these speakers crossed at?-- Now 45 vs 300B.I've goofed with both these tubes for a while and they both are excellent.I think that the 45 is more detail orientated and the 300B is better all around.
I've had some fun with adjusting the operating points on both tubes,with the 45 not changing much in signature but the 300B changing very nicely. --Does the 45 tube have mids like the 300B or does it give up warmth for detail? I have heard the 45 tube described as "gutless" by a lot of people, so i assume its not too good below the lower midrange. Is this what you mean by the 300B being better overall?
Do you think the 300B's strong points are the lower mids and bass?
-- I've run the 300B at 330v(270vgk)and running 20ma,10K load and I thought it sounded excellent at these points.I currentlty run my 300B's at 340v(280vgk) and with 40ma on the plate. They sound great and should last a long time at these points(Valve Art nickel plates,no WECO's as they are too exspensive for me). --
Thanks for sharing. I'd like to run my 300B's that way also to preserve tube life. Previously i was running them at 450V i think it was.
-- As for the others I thought the 71A sounds a little 2a3ish and I don't mean that in a positive way.The 811A I don't have a lot of experience with but from what little I have heard it came off as being a little sterile sounding.--
Thanks! 45 and 300B seem to be what i'd like to use then based on everyones comments.
thanks,
-Mark
Warning Mark, the 300b operated like that is great, I used to do that also, but it's then way under power so don't use those operating points if you're looking for 8 to 10 watts for your base driver.Paul Barker
Bi,Tri amping.I never tried it at home(I use a single full range driver per channel),but I have heard it at other places.The sound just isn't coherent to my ears but take that with a grain of salt and salsa dip.If you like a "clear" sound with tone look at the 845.I run em low,real low but they sound awesome and are easy to drive.This is the one tube I have that I probaly like more than the 300B.The 801 is also an awesome tube.
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