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Hi everyone, what do you think, are some of the greatest rock drummers? Please share your thoughts, I will post mine after reading yours. ThanksKhalid(Cal)
Follow Ups:
Clinical my arse! His playing is intense and varied, with great range and emotion. THE best, technical most clockwork drummer to ever beat on skins.
just kiddin about Ringo!!!
;^)I seen Bonham Live ... and he carried ZEP ... which was difficult to do considering the 'swings' in tempo and amount of random 'jamming' the band tended to do when having fun onstage. He and Jones were incredibly tight - giving plant & page the foundation to do their thing!!!
Peart was excellent live too - but RUSH concerts sounded very rehearsed and controlled compared to Zeps jammin good times.
There are lots of good, even great drummers, but i believe that the true test is when you see them perform live!
TBone
TBone,
My thoughs are the same.
Pearl is very complex, and subtle.
Other extreme, Bomham played with pure power. His drum rolls are like cannon shots.
Nice fit for their bands; Pearl would have been overwhelmed by Zep's sheer power, and Bonham would have dominated Rush. Nice synergy beween the drummers and their bands.KP
While there are others, Charlie alway seems to be the best drummer to me. On the great Stones songs Charlie holds the songs together. His drumming is never in the background and always lets the others, Keith in particular, have the freedom to let off the riff from hell.His phrasing of the beat is impeccable. If you were to hear any of drum tracks apart from the the rest of the band, you would know what song was being played. That, to me, is his greatness.
Agreed. And he's got the good sense to not believe there is a need to take a solo to prove it.Bob
The beat must constantly drive but not be boring or used as a solo platform, which many drummers tend to do! The last 5 or so years Charlie has finally received his just desserts and is considered by many IN the business to be THE rock drummer of all time!If you want to strip the Stones down to their essence, lead guitar not withstanding -the greatness of the Stones is Jagger Richards Watts. Then fill in nearly any top lead and bass, you would still have the Stones!
nt
..I just figured Ry Cooder may have been considered a great rock guitarist even though he hasn't touched rock in a while.
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Ginger Baker
Power, timing, finesse--Mick does it all. This is a guy who knows pretty much all there is to know about rock drumming. One listen to ANY Fleetwood Mac record will bear this out, quickly.
Have always thought the same. Mick is a very smart drummer with a great imagination.
text? nada.
Earl Hudson
Some are not as personality oriented as others
NT
.
Isn't this question like asking which car is the best car? What rifle is the best rifle? What amp is the best amp? OK so here we go.
There are 2 rock drummers that come to mind which most on the thread would agree. They are John Bonham of Led Zeppelin and Neil Peart of Rush. But what sets them apart from the others? My opinion is that they were allowed by the band and the music to exhibit their abilities. Would Bonham have been as good if he had played with Heart or Jethro Tull? This is not meant to demean these 2 groups but to make a point. Would we think the Beatles so great if Peart had been their drummer. My point is that ever so often you get the right ingredients (band members) that has that magic (kinda like putting together the right components). And when that happens you get the full potential of each piece. This is the case with LZ and Rush.
Bonham and Peart are on opposite ends of the spectrum however. Bonham is actually a slow drummer who is also explosive. When I tell people that they usually look at me as if I'm crazy. But it is true. I know because I play his style and can play most of LZ's music with proficiency. His timing is often lagging about 1/32. He is off top dead center but it goes with the music and gives it style. Bonham is a master of the bass drum and most of his speed is produced by hand and feet (triplets) of which very few if any other drummer uses.
Peart on the other hand is all hands (about 3 or 4 of them I think). He is quick, precise and awsome. he is everything that Bonham is not and vice versa. It would have been very interesting to have seen them play off each other.
However it should be realized that no drummer makes it to the professional level without being good. There are many who have the potential but not the music to exhibit their talent. Some are also limited by the band who want a drummer to be little more than a timekeeper. Some of these bands could possibly go on to better things if they would turn their drummer loose. But many don't want to share the spotlight.
Now if you are judging a drummers ability based on a solo then Tommy Aldridge may get my vote for the greatest drummer. If you have any doubts than listen to his solo on Black Oak Arkansas "Live Raunch N Roll" last track entitled Up and then tell me anyone ever did any better.
I was a drummer for a few years and followed drumming many more. From the drummers that I talked to and read interviews about, I'd say that if a vote were taken Neil Peart would probably end up at the top of this list. I don't think he would "win" by many votes, but "win" he would. And I'm not just talking about a popularity contest here -- I'm talking about real drummers. What most amazes me about Peart is that he is always learning, changing, adopting, rearranging, inventing, etc. This is not to say that other drummers don't do this, but they don't do all of these things to the degree that he does. Even with his ability, and I believe natural and learned with him is a 50-50 split, he still believes he has much farther to go. How many drummers out there wish they had even half of his ability -- and he's still "in the learning process"? By the way, any Dave Weckl fans?
ASD
I'd forgotten about Tommy Aldridge, mainly because I hated BOA with a passion. How a guy with Aldridge's tremendous chops and inventiveness ever wound up backing an inbred oaf like Jim Dandy Mangrum is one of life's little mysteries.
And what was it about Jim Dandy that you disliked so much? FWIW I saw the concert where Aldridge did that solo. Awesome
Saw BOA on "In Concert" or some such back in the mid/late 1970s, or at least so sez my hazy memory. I could not believe Aldridge's solo -that was one thing I remembered.As for Jim Dandy: Something about that cemenr-mixer voice, that crazed expression and his general backwoods weirdness made me think of Deliverance, but with longhairs. He could have used a pair of compression shorts, too.
Jimmy Chamberlin
Fock John Bonham & Neil Peart.fp (drummer)
I saw Blondie a few years back, around the time of that horrible come-back album. The band wasn't too hot anymore, but Clem Burke (although an obvious Moon-wannabee) still kicked some serious a$$!
And he wore a T-shirt with that red, white & blue The Who 'mod' logo. Cool!
I second Bun E. Carlos. I checked out Cheap Trick in that same venue (Melkweg a.k.a. Milkyway, Amsterdam) around the same time and he was awesome - just like the rest of the band.
Surre-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-nder!
Robert
Keith Moon.When I was in high school there were two schools of thought: Keith Moon and John Bonham (well there were also some weirdos who said Neil Peart, but we mostly just humored them). The thing that finally pushed me over to the Keith Moon side was the re-release of the Who's Live at Leeds album. Moon played the drums like they were the lead instrument. That guy was lightning in a bottle.
If want to hear an unusual but fantastic but of drum work, get the album "Drum Battle". On it Gene Krupa and Buddy Rich go back and forth, rocking like mad, totally oblivious to the fact that everyone else on the album is playing jazz.
n
Maybe not a great 'un, but a darn good 'un. The way he always smoked in time with the beat was pretty cool.
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*
Damon Che: Don Caballero's incredibly moody, brutal, driving, amazingly skilled drummer. I've had pretty much everything on stage thrown at me (well, at the crowd, but I was in front usually) at one point or another by him. And sometimes he's a fun guy to hang out with. Kind of.John McEntire: Drummer for The Sea & Cake, as well as rotating to just about every instrument in Tortoise and recording just about everyone under the sun. Very deft, light touch on the drums, very tasteful. Something you don't find in rock very much.
Rey Washam: Member of Lard, Scratch Acid, Didgits, Rapeman (and recently of Ministry I hear?). I liked him with Rapeman the best. Absolutely punishing but virtuosic. If you like late 80's chicago post-punk, get the Rapeman album (if you don't already have it). If you're an Albini fan, you know what I'm talking about.
Christian Vander..Ginger Baker...Robert Wyatt..John Bonham...Terry Bozzio... B.J.Wilson....Mickey Hart...Spencer Dryden...Max Weinberg..Mick Fleetwood..Tony Williams...Carmine Appice....in no particular order...just some of my fave picks....Mark
nt
Was it Carl Radle who played in Derek and the Dominoes? He gets my vote for single drummer. for double billy and micky. and more: Santana et al.
Carl Radle played bass.
nt
Moon was great, undoubtedly, but to say no one can touch him is a strong statement, when in fact, there are many rock technical drummers that could blow him away. Palmer, Bruford, and Peart come to mind.
Keith didn't have chops like Palmer, Bruford or Peart. However, "chops" ain't what drumming is all about (being a professional drummer myself, I feel qualified to make this statement). Moon's drumming had heart, soul, warmth, life, bottom and balls. He MADE that band's sound ... witness the dull, thin sound emanating from that band after his untimely demise - Kenny Jones was completely lifeless.For all their chops, neither Palmer, Bruford nor Peart could sound anywhere close to Keith. Their sound is hypertechnical and mechanical. In their playing, you can hear every drum lesson they ever had.
Of all the rock drummers I have heard, only 2 others made the kind of impact on their band that Keith did - I'm referring to Ringo and Bonzo. But, even then, Keith rules because he played with such panache, personality and creativity.
its what elevates good music too GREAT music.
Music is only about technique to some people. I am not one of them. Moon had more personality & style than the three of them combined cubed, sez I. (That's a strongly held opinion) He may have been an obnoxious drunk, but when it came to playing, I don't think they could've shined his shoes no matter how much 'better' they were on paper.
I once met someone who thought Phil Collins was a better drummer than Keith Moon.Seriously.
...to him, that's all that matters. In a subjective thread, no one person's opinion is 'better' than another's. Still, it's fun to debate, isn't it?I hope the guy's receiving professional help?
Accepted. You make a valid point. I guess there are different things people listen for in drummers, and different 'personalities' create different stylings.
Wasn't he also present on Derek & the Dominoes? He was a great session drummer. A young Michael Shreve wasn't bad.
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nt
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N/T
nt
Bobby Caldwell on the Captain Beyond albums is about as good as I have ever heard. I think Chester Thompson of Zappa and Santana bands is outstanding.drobo
Former Sugar drummer Malcolm Travis? He was so damned precise that he sounded like a drum machine. Granted, that's not exactly a glowing endorsement of his talent, but the guy certainly had timing, if nothing else.
Bonzo Rules ! Reading Chris Welch's book on him finally sets the record straight. Just another drunk drummer, he wasn't !!!Hal Blaine and Clem Cattini should get honorable mentions as two of the best Journeyman Drummers!!!!
Watch 30 years of maximum R&B the Who video movie....just him doing Happy Jack solidifies it. No drummer jazz , rock , etc ever had those chops.Will
If you think that drumming is as much about touch as it is timing (as I do) than Moon is not that great. He had one touch: hard. If you like forceful, hard driving drums then Keith is your man. However if he were a subwoofer we would call him a one note sub. I can't think of any particular song or album where I would compare his abilities to the likes of a Bonham or Peart. If someone can give me an example I'd be glad to listen. This is not to say he was'nt a good drummer. Actually I don't think you can get to the professional level and be bad. But it is to say he was not great. It's interesting how death has a tendancy to elevate someones ability in the public eye.
nt
I think he had a rather keen sense of dynamics, which was a lot of what separated him from others & kept him from being just a drunken lunatic pounding the skins. He had soul, something the overplaying Peart could never hope for, and I give him the nod over Bonham because I think he was more unique & had a style that I've rarely heard before or since. Examples? I think they're pretty self-evident in most of the Who's major works. I never thought of him as just a hard hitter & a spin of Quadrophenia or Who's Next will back that up, I believe.
I concur. I have known and played in bands with a couple of exceptional drummers. Both have said that Moon constantly did things that were so difficult and outside the box that his style is simply not replicable. Listen to those accents at the end of the synthesizer break in "Won't Get Fooled Again." The way Moony punctuated things was so unique and out there that I can see why jazzers appreciated him. And as a pure power drummer, he was exceeded only by Bonzo.
First let me say that as a kid growing up in the 60's I listened more to Zep, Sabbath, Grand Funk, Iron Butterfly, etc than I did to The Who. If memory serves me, they made their name by playing fast, loud and smashing their equipment at the end of the set. I had Live at Leeds and currently have Who's Next. I haven't listened to it in a while but will do so today.
My reason for not including Moon as great are as follows. I don't believe he had as much dynamics (touch) as J has noted. Most of the Who's music is straight forward R&R music with Moon's rolls done in straight 4/4 hand over hand style. Bill Ward of Sabbath has a similar style. Moon uses this hand over hand roll throughout many of the songs that I am familiar with whereas Ward uses it for fill. If you like that style (technique) that is fine. But I don't think it aspires to greatness any more than the drummer that played "Wipe Out". They are of the same style (hand over hand straight forward).
From what i remember The Who's music is pretty much straight forward 4/4 R&R music with little or no time change, pause, inversion or trick timing that is found in Zep or Rush. Moon may have been able but the music doesn't show it. (See my post "another rant..." for explanation)
Sorry, couldn't resist since we're bringing jazz into it now..:P
You need to get out more.Keith was a spirited cat for sure, but there's litereally THOUSANDS of drummers with more skills.
Peace.
"Hatred does not cease by hatred at any time. Hatred ceases by love. This is the eternal law."
--The Buddha
"Thousands of drummers with more skills" than Keith? No way. I defy you or anyone to name any drummer who could replicate Keith's playing. That's why The Who sucked, big time, after Keith's self-induced demise. I've never heard anyone, including Bonzo (who was probably Keith's next best competitor) able to create the sonic scenery that Keith did. Certainly, no one could or can re-create his parts verbatim.If you mean "chops" in the sense of whether Keith could do single, double and triple paradiddles in sequence, you may have a point. But, that stuff is meaningless. Keith was one of, if not THE most, creative and energetic rock'n roll drummer of his or any other generation.
Just responding to " "No drummer jazz , rock , etc ever had those chops."Soul, creativity, etc. can't be compared IMO. I'm just saying there's LOTS of guys with more chops. That's all.
Peace,
Dave
"Hatred does not cease by hatred at any time. Hatred ceases by love. This is the eternal law."
--The Buddha
"""Keith was a spirited cat for sure, but there's litereally THOUSANDS of drummers with more skills.""""
HUH? You are on crack.Will
Skills maybe, but genius no. As others above said, in rock music, Moon rules. In fact, his name used to come up quite often among jazz drummers. There was usually a tone of awe attached.
I hate it when other people start grousing about other's threads, but c'mon you guys:Yeah, John Bonham, Ginger Baker, Keith Moon... all great drummers.
Yeah, Bill Bruford, Neil Peart, Stewart Copeland... all great drummers.
Yeah, Carl Palmer, Cozy Powell, no duh- whatever. Kind of predictable, no?Everybody knows these are great drummers, but what's the point of discussing it? How about enlightening us to some musicians that are less universally acknowledged? How about a drummer that really shines, that's not already enshrined in the FM-Classic-Rock-Channel-Drummer Hall of Fame?
Stepping down now, thanks for your indulgence.
Cheers!
BenPS. How about that Rey Washam and Bill Rieflin? Drum Monsters along the Alien Jourgenson/Steve Alibini axis.
nt
nt
Rudd plays basic drumming. He is a 'monotone' drummer, and should not even be up here on these boards. The question was who are the best drummers. I love AC/DC, but to say Phil Rudd compares with the best is like saying a Yugo compared to a Porsche 911 Turbo!
Rudd IS a basic drummer, that's very true. But playing a straight "in the pocket" 4/4 with impeccable timing is probably the toughest part of drumming. Anybody can play a ton of fills, but staying in the pocket and playing for the tune as opposed to showing off is tres difficult. Rudd is one of the best at what he does. Listen to AC/DC stuff after he left the band ... IT SUCKED! The drumming was atrocious and there was no concern for how the tune "sounded" from a drumming perspective. Rudd is solid, dependable, and puts it down like nobody else. He's no Keith Moon (my drumming hero) or Bonzo, but he lays it down and keeps it "there." That's the hallmark of a fine musician.
Your 2 posts seem to be contradictory. On the one hand you are defending the greatness of Keith Moon who was anything but strictly in the pocket, and now you are defending Phil Rudd's greatness for being in the pocket. You say "Anybody can play a ton of fills". Well what does Moon do but play a ton of fills and use it as his style. So if anyone can do it as you say, where is his (Moon's) greatness? You also say "playing a straight "in the pocket" 4/4 with impeccable timing is probably the toughest part of drumming." No that is not the toughest part. It is the basic part. If a drummer doesn't have timing, he lacks the #1 qualification for the job. I speak as one who has played drums for 30 yrs. with professional experience as well.
Randy> I can sure relate to the traffic director aspect of playing. Anyone who has played drums in a band has experienced it. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it. It is our job to keep it moving steady. I can also understand why you would think that Bonzo was sloppy, but you must consider the music he was playing was much more complicated than the Who's stuff. Not that much 4/4 for Zep. Plus it fits emotionally in the song.
I don't understand your and J's absolute contempt for Peart. Seems to me that to deny him would be like denying Gene Krupa or Buddy Rich.
J, you talk about overplay that you find annoying in many drummers. This is the way I hear Moon. Though I don't find it annoying, I do find it distasteful. I wish he would do something different from time to time.
In essense I believe we may be looking for 2 different things in a drummer. Both of you have talked a lot about playing "in the box" which leads me to believe that you see the drummer as strictly timing. Though I believe he is in charge of the timing I also believe the music might be enhanced if he were let out of the box occassionally. To me Zep is a prime case for this. Please see my post "another rant..." for further clarification of my thoughts. I have enjoyed the interaction. You have made your cases clear. We have different opinions on Moon and Peart. However if we were to get together for a listening session it would be my priviledge to put on some Who and Zeppelin and just enjoy the music. That is what it is really about anyway
Wishing you the best
Artemus
nt
one of the few times I find him to play "tasty." :-)Ciao,
R
Artemus,Moon's style enhanced the group 'cuz he played for the tune. Even though he was a "busy" boy, he (like Rudd) was cognizant of what was going on around him and he never got in the way of the song or detracted from it. He was very deliberate in working out his parts, yet he was able to be spontaneous within the context of his part and the tune.
Rudd is similar, only he's far from busy. He plays a straight 4 without getting in the way ... his fills (to the extent he ever has any) are simple and direct. He, like Moon, is very deliberate in working out his part.
We disagree that playing in the pocket is the most difficult part. Since we are both pros with a lot of experience, you've no doubt played with musicians (especially bass players) whose timing sucks and who are either speeding up or slowing down while you try to keep it solid and together. In those situations (and I think there are many of them) you really have to concentrate and direct traffic by laying it down and keeping it there. Otherwise you have a situation where it's either off to the races or a funeral procession. As a general proposition, it's GOT to be solid and metronome-like; that takes a ton of concentration regardless of whether you have superior, innate time. That's why I think Rudd is so great. He's always "there" and you don't notice him. With the exception of Moon (for reasons previously stated), I subscribe to the maxim that "less is more."
Also, Moon had the luxury of Entwhistle who, for all his creativity and multiple runs, was solid as a rock as far as time. Even Keith screwed up occasionally by coming out of the fill too soon or too late. But, Entwhistle remained solid. Bonzo, too, had a similar situation with Jones - I think Bonzo was an extremely sloppy player, although his greatness in coming up with licks is undeniable. He certainly didn't have that annoying, hypertechnical/mechanical sound of Peart, Bruford or Palmer.
In sum, Moon and Rudd are similar in their approach to drumming, they just execute it differently. The tune comes first. IMHO, they may be at opposite extremes, but their styles are not mutually exclusive.
Regards,
Randy
"annoying and hypertechnical"?!See why music is so highly subjective! Peart's style may be annoying and hypertechnical to YOU but to ME (and countless others) it is masterful and engaging on both a mental and aural level. To each his or her own. I happen to enjoy both Moon and Peart's artistry.
I respect what Peart, et al. can do, it's just not to my taste and I find it lacking soul. You're right about all this being subjective, but that's just part of the fun of threads like this. N'est ce pas?Regards,
Randy
The Who was a rare bird in that it was a band whose music was enhanced by Moon's stretching out & he might just be the only drummer I've ever heard who had the correct combination of taste & skill to get away with what I usually think of overplaying without burdening the songs with showoffy nonsense. I hear other drummers overplay & it just makes me angry, but Moon's stylings never bothered me. Same with Entwhistle, whose approach to bass playing is counter to mine, yet what he did worked for me. Many have tried to emulate him, but to my ears most have failed because--and as a drummer you should be able to relate to this--bass & drums are, or should be, at least to my way of thinking, RHYTHM INSTRUMENTS. To my ears Rudd will always be 'better' than Peart because he didn't showcase his technique at the expense of AC/DC's simply structured, straight-ahead rock songs. Peart's drumming fits Rush, but I always found their compositions to be completely overloaded & since I think prog rock's basically a big pile o'poopy I don't waste the time to consider what great musicians they may be. The material is so counter to my tastes I couldn't care less what level the playing's on. Give me Ringo, Mo Tucker, Jody Stephens, Charlie Watts, Moon, and, yes, Bun E. Carlos (who leaned a little too closely to the side of technique, yet didn't ruin Cheap Trick with look-at-me I-can-do-this overplaying) any day of the week over charlatans like Peart.
Drums front and center, where they belong.
nt
Ben,There is a guy who plays for Styx now who is incredible. His name is Todd Shuereman (or something like that).
On their live video they put out a few years ago, he was new to the band after the death of John Panozzo.
I was very impressed with his skills behind the kit. And I had never heard of him before.
Pretty impressive!
Dave
Good point, Ben Brill. Seeing as how the best drummers are always at least a little bit crazy (some more so):Frank "I Play the Drums" Funaro
Kyle Melancon (strips nude, runs out into the audience, and plays tables, floors, and bar tops)
the guy in the Surfaris who played "Wipeout" (c'mon now, I bet nobody knows his name without looking)
Will Rigby (maybe not obscure enough, but must be mentioned)
Keith Moon.
Would also add Martin Chambers, Clem Burke.
definitely - Clem absolutely ruled in Blondie. He should have replaced Moony in the Who rather then Kenney Jones. I'll second Bonham, Bruford, Peart adn C. Palmer. And add Phil Collins (back on the early Genesis albums), Keith Moon, Can's Jaki Liebezeit, Porcupine Tree's Chris Maitland and Pip Pyle (Hatfield & the North, Gong, Natl Health, and zillions of other Brit progressive and fusion bands).
He didn't make it in the Ramones, now, did he? Not a horribly damning criticism, but something to take note of nonetheless.As Darius has opined many times before, there is a pox on the cult of musician-based rock music.
If there was a better rock drummer than Keith Moon I haven't heard it.
If there was a worse rock drummer than Neil Peart I damn sure haven't heard it.
I didn't check out all the posts yet but in what I saw I failed to see any mention of Ringo or Charlie Watts. Hmmm...
No Clemmy Ramone, eh?But listen to "Dreaming" from Eat to the Beat. Sublime. I saw Blondie waaaay back when (1978) and Burke was amazing. Sort of a cross of Moon and Carl Palmer. Judging by the Blondie live special on VH-1 a couple of years back, Clem has lost none of his chops whatsoever, and "Dreaming" was taken even faster than the record.
When Richie Ramone quit in mid-'87 Clem was tapped to replace him. I'm sure it had more to do with style than competency--Clem was indeed a fine skin-pounder--but he was unceremoniously dumped after a couple of gigs & Marky was brought back into the band instead. The things I read about this seemed to indicate that Clem was very into being the Ramones' drummer but that he sought to bring an image to a chair in a band that already had one.
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minutemen and fIREHOSE.
Bongwater and Shockabilly.
Khalid(Cal),While not in any real order...
Neal Peart
John Bonham
Bill Bruford (?rock?)
Terry Bozio (?Rock?)
Carmine Appice
Steve Smith
The Linn Drum Machine (just joking!)
Simon Phillips
Stewart Copeland
...to name a fewEnjoy the Music (Moby "Play" right now),
Steven R. Rochlin
"see myself in the pouring home
see the light come over now
see myself in the pouring rain
i watch hope come over mehere we are now, going to the east side
i pick up my friends and we start to ride
ride all night, we ride all day
some may come and some may stayhere we are in the pouring home
i watch the light man fall the comb
i watch a light move across the screen
i watch the light come over mehere we are now going to the west side
weapons in hand as we go for a ride
some may come and some may stay
watching out for a sunny day where there'slove and darkness and my sidearm
hey, elanhere we are now going to the north side
i look at my friends as they start to ride
ride at night we ride all day
looking out for a sunny dayhere we are now going to the south side
i pick up my friends and we hope we won't die
ride at night, ride through heaven and hell
come back and feel so well."
Simon Phillips...WOW!!! 801 LIVE, an incredible live album!How cum nobody's mentioned Mickey Dolenz??
On a more serious note, Ringo Starr would lose a battle of the sticks with most of these guys, but with the Beatles he was ALWAYS right where he needed to be. What more should a drummer be?
My sentimental fave, Keith Moon.
For staying in the groove it's hard to beat Al Jackson (Booker T and the MGs).
[nt]
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