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In Reply to: RE: I caught Analog Scott out on two things. posted by Pat D on July 31, 2010 at 18:39:14
"Well, when you want to discuss an article, it behooves you to know who wrote it, what the title is, and what it said."
Really one has to know the title? No Pat, all one needs to know in this case were the relevant facts. I'll list them for you.
1. It was ABX DBTs
2. The results as reported were a null
3. Given the presence of a 50 watt OTL amp with the load presented by the speakers used this is a very unlikely result.
4. The methodologies were a mess.
5. One can not find any scrutiny of this test anywhere online by any objectivists despite being one of the highest profile tests of it's kind.
I knew those 5 points from memory and rereading the article confirms those points were accurately remembered. And that is all I needed to make my point in the OP.
"You showed no sign of knowing anything of the sort."
Then you can't read the signs Pat.
" As for the flawed methodology and unlikely result, you haven't shown either one,"
Really? What aren't you getting about the problem with a 50 watt OTL not giving a positive result with the speakers used?
>> though I happen to agree it could have been more sensitive.>>
Clearly if it missed the obvious differences one would hear with a 50 watt Futterman and a cheap SS amp from the 80s.
" But since you did not know the particulars of the article, you could not possibly show that the 1987 SR amp test is high profile, and that it has not been criticized."
That is some pretty piss poor logic there Pat. again I would point you to the five key point above. they are all that matter in this case.
"I cited a 1991 article in Stereo Review by E. Brad Meyer which showed audible differences existed between a SS amp and a tube amp, how audible depending on the speaker loads. Moreover, he showed why they sounded different."
And this does what other than support my assertion that the results of the 1987 ABX DBTs wrought unlikely results?
>> The second thing? It is as I stated: You tried to illustrate that some objectivists, unnamed and unquantified, questioned the results of a positive DBT for no good reasons.>>
No I did not try to do that Pat. Again I suggest you read the article I cited on meta-analysis since this explains my actual point rather than the one you seem to be imagining here. I never commented on *the content* of these two threads that scrutinized the ABX DBTs that wrought positive results.
Follow Ups:
You maintain a number of things about the 1987 test but have not established any of them. You haven't shown why we would expect the Futterman amp to sound different--though from what I have seen somewhere, it should sound different under some common circumtstances.
Also, we have only your word that is a high profile article.
META-ANALYSIS?
Since I have shown that Stereo Review published an article in 1991 by E. Brad Meyer showing that a tube and a SS amplifier were audibly different with a speaker load. I should also point out that Stereophile did a very poorly set up mass blind test between a tube and a SS amplifier with barely positive results which readers showed were somewhat ambiguous, but Banks and Krajicek ran a smaller but much better set up blind test using the same two amplifiers and achieved a much less ambiguous positive result. Since the results reported in the 1987 SR article have been superseded, one wonders why you think it is so important. You give no reason whatever why subsequent testers would want to reexamine that old article except for historical purposes.
METHODOLOGY
You complain that:
"4. The methodologies were a mess."
But you do nothing to establish that. The results could have simply statistical fluke for all you have told us.
Since you maintain that "the methodologies were a mess," you should be able to tell us what they should have done better, but you aren't saying. Until you do, your complaints about the methodologies are simply your unsupported opinion.
-Why do you think the result of part of the test comparing the tube amp to the SS amps achieved a null result?
-What should the testers have done to make the test more sensitive?
I'm only trying to teach you something about how to support your positions.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
When you have a counter argument to any of my points let me know.
And that's what I have shown. If you want to make your points, it's up to you to argue for them.
__
"Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not."---Flanders & Swann
and that is what I have shown. And these personal attacks prove you have no argument that i have no argument.
Score one for the argument that "This Will Never Be Resolved". ;)
i just wonder if he got the jokes.
Is there some form of measurement for the jokes? Has it been determined that the jokes are "get-able"? Evidence required. ;)
That made me laugh at 5 in the morning. But it was under sighted conditions so I don't know if I really laughed or imagined it
I keep wondering if people in South Central L.A take the time to DBT gunfire or if they just take cover.
There is an end. One can invoke the Kleene Star operator.
For more on this subject read the following:
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
...wishing for 10 beers and then all non-biased thought went straight out the window. :)
Thanks - this was quite good. lol
Godel Escher Bach is one of my favorite books, but it requires a lot of determination to make it all the way through, especially if you follow all of the serious parts in detail and work out the puzzles.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
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