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In Reply to: Re: "IF there is an effect that is large enough to be heard (as in altering the acoustic signal entering your ears..." posted by geoffkait on April 18, 2007 at 10:56:39:
HiI see your point, I was assuming the need to prove, or not, “if” cables have a direction by comparison of each end. What goes on in ones personal head is an individual thing.
The PEAR work, not the “prospectus sounding” reports showed that some minority percentage of the population, was able to “influence” the results of otherwise random events, at a magnitude that exceeded statistical probability.
Yet, when the identical studies were undertaken the correlation which had been found was now nearly gone. There may be other cases like cold fusion where the presence of skeptics seems to spoil the party like a brown floater in the punchbowl.If one were designing equipment to be optimal and had the bux to do it like they do in larger market areas, one would have a large number of skilled listeners to audition an A vs B comparisons in its development.
“Enough” people would average out the small percentage that “PEAR” effects the actual operation of the gear (which produces the pressure going into ones ear).
Limiting the test to one where there is no knowledge and no expectation of which is which (what a or b is), the result is only based on what one hears as in discerning only from the pressure in ones ears.
In these kinds of tests, with ones eyes closed too, one doesn’t detect the presence or absence of colored paper under a lamp or aligned screw heads on the equipment, magic marbles, magic knobs and such because they are not related to the pressure in your ears.If speaker wire is “directional” or has an impact on what comes out, it has to alter the signal “somehow”. That makes before and after different enough to hear and then, also large enough to be heard as a signal produced across the conductor, which drives a second speaker.
Best,Tom
Follow Ups:
A paper discussing various aspects of the PEAR and Giessen experiments can be found at:http://www.metapsychique.org/Does-psi-exist-and-can-we-prove-it.html
HiUnfortunately I have lost contact with the customer that knew some people doing the research so I hadn’t read any of the conclusion papers or heard anything in years.
I was surprised to find they had closed though given what they seemed to have found "back then".
I suppose it is appropriate that the whole thing is even more complicated and fuzzy, like they say “not reproducible”.
Some quotes from that paper that actually do sound like high end hifi:“Dealing with psi anomalies scientifically therefore requires that I already believe in the existence of these anomalies if I want to obtain positive and significant results.”
“If psi exists, and I believe it, psi will also acting in the skeptics attempt to obtain evidence for the non-existence of psi.”
So, lets say you were the designer, your task to design an amplifier or speakers etc that will be sold to unknown people.
You have no idea what they think or like or what kind of music they will play.
Do you design based on engineering things that are reproducible every time or things that depend on the user having a particular pre-disposed (favorable) mindset?
Do you design a speaker to mentally evoke the strongest emotional reaction (in its appearance, physical complexity / weight / cost) or do you focus on reducing the myriad of invisible acoustical flaws they have?Keep in mind, what ever psi effect there is, it is small enough to evade conclusive detection / quantification even now.
Best,Tom
Actually, now that you mention it, the organization that's taking over the work of PEAR plans, among other things, the "Establishment of an acoustics research laboratory to explore the psycho-physiological effects of room shape, lighting, color, sound, electromagnetic fields, air qualities, etc. in the design and creation of propitious working and living environments."~ Cheers
"Their expectations, hopes, fears, belief and disbelief are selfreferential, they act as self-fulfilling prophecies (Watzlawick, 1985)."Applying to audio, now we can see believers in tweaks will hear differences and disbelievers will not. It is the belief system that has not been taken into account heretofore.
This should end all further dispute.
put to bed the theory that disbelievers simply can't hear and have crap systems.
those hands have been overplayed.OTOH, what about disbelievers in the principle "belief influences physical reality." By disbelieving, do they negate it?
That's pretty similar to the concept that if you invite a disbeliever over to listen to your hi fi, his negative "influence" will hurt the sound that *you* hear. But these things are hard to prove hehe
I had intended to comment on Belt products/concepts when I referenced PEAR publications/experiments. While directionality of wire may be an interesting subject, I did not intend to comment on it.The way I read the information published since the Giessen group's replication of the earlier PEAR experiment is that, while the 2nd experiment is contradictory, the subject is far from closed. From what I've read, there can be unknown and/or subtle factors at play in these types of experiments including, but not limited to, the "belief bias" of the experimentors. I suspect we'll have to wait for more definitive tests.
See Jeromelang's comments on the audible effect of removing video tapes from his room as that sort of thing represents the type of "Beltian" phenomenon I had in mind
~ Cheers
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