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In Reply to: No, but you compare the SF Cremona Auditor to other speakers! posted by Pat D on November 29, 2006 at 15:00:49:
Pat,Get a firm grip on the reality that I find your Paradigm Sig S2's to be mid-fi speakers, not even worth $600 pr in mint used shape. Once you get a firm grip on that concept, let it go, because what my opinion of your speakers is shouldn't matter to you at all!
Pat I've noticed you're reverting back to typical behaviour i.e. ignoring everything I say in my posts and only discussing addressing the points you raise and want addressed. Now as far as you attempting to make my placing the SF Cremona Auditor, which I haven't heard, in Class B & your Paradigm Signature S2 speakers, which I did hear, in Class C appear as some sort of bad form of subjectivism, I'd say your reading comprehension skills seem to be diminishing. As I've clearly explained how and why I did that. Your acting as if I haven't is an obvious faux pas on your part.
I quite plainly told you more than once I have not heard the SF Cremona Auditor. I also told you, I was told by a person visiting my home and then by the person who sold me the Aliantes, the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar. If that's true and I don't know if it is, then I have a good idea of what the Sonus Fabers sound like.
Pat can you follow this so far? Is not please re-read it, if you can continue on. Now taking that one step further if I were to use Stereophile's rating system I'd place my Aliante Pinafarina Ones in Class B. So it just follows that if the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar, I'd also place them in Class B as well. I've quite plainly & clearly stated this placement in Class B of the SF Cremona Auditor is based soley on the assumption that if the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar, then I'd have a good idea of what the Sonus Fabers sound like!
Could that be a mistaken opinion on my part? YES! But as it based on info from others who've heard both the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones speakers and felt they were quite similar and NOT apon my having personally having heard the SF Cremona Auditor. It's based apon comments I've read about the SF Cremona Auditor and it's based apon knowing which of those traits the Aliantes share and lastly it's based apon having owned the Aliantes for over 4 years now. So yes I feel ok having made that placement, while candidly admitting how I came to the conclusion.
How many times do you need to be told that? Geesh Pat my opinion of your speakers appears to be really disturbing you. Let it go, let it go, let it go...
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
Follow Ups:
You explanations of how you evaluated the SF Cremona Auditor simply don't hold water. You haven't heard them but only know two people who have.It seems that you, a subjectivist, are willing to take all sorts of people's word the sound quality of equipment (i.e., Harry Pearson, visitors, dealers), whereas I, whom you consider to be an objectivist, do not, but rely on my own listening.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,Unlike you it doesn't bother me if you approve or disaprove of my beliefs. Additionally I don't have to justify my opinions. I'm actually a bit surprised that you feel anyone would have to justify their opinions on audio. I've never claimed this opinion was an indisputable fact, did I? So why do you feel I have to justify my opinion? I know I don't feel that way! I do however like to explain how I've reached my opinions. Others can than read what I've written and give my opinion as little or as much consideration as they choose to.
I believe the SF Cremona Auditor should be a Class B (Restricted LF) "if" one is using Stereophiles rating system. I then explained clearly & intelligently how that I reached that conclusion when I've never actually heard the SF Cremona Auditor speaker!
1) Based on info from others whose ears I trust, unlike yours who ears I don't trust. (These people I trust heard both the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones speakers and felt they were quite similar.)
2) Based apon comments I've read about the SF Cremona Auditor. (These comments were from reviews, comments posted by SF Cremona Auditor owners etc.)
3) Based apon my knowing which traits the Aliantes Pinafarina One & SF Cremona Auditor both share. (Having owned the Aliantes for over 4 years now, I can easily determine what traits they share with the SF Cremona Auditor based on 1 & 2 above.)
So yes I feel ok having reached my opinion of the SF Cremona Auditor although I haven't personally heard it. But I quite candidly admit how I came to the conclusion. But for some strange reason that really bothers you Pat. I'm so sorry Pat. I didn't realize you allow my opinions to have such an dramatic impact on you. Remember what I've told you before Pat? It's just my opinion so if you don't agree with it let it go, let it go, let it go... You'll be a lot happier that way.
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
Actually, I don't dispute the rating you give of the SF Cremona Auditor as I think it is a very fine speaker. I would rate it with my own, which Stereophile puts in Class Restricted LF. Buts you evaluate it without having heard it, based on hearsay. It's the same as if you wrote a review without having heard the product, or reviewed a theatre performance you did not attend.I have to laugh when you talk about "my knowing which traits the Aliantes Pinafarina One & SF Cremona Auditor both share." You have never heard the SF Cremona Auditor and have never said anything intelligible about its "traits." It's hilarious. You really don't know anything about its sonic traits. It's like the fundamentalists who complain about movies and art they've never seen.
As I have said before, you are entitled to like whatever speakers you want. Your taste in speakers is evidently different from mine. I don't care whether you like my speakers or not, but the only reason you have ever brought them up was to bash my opinions in audio and I simply point out your bad logic, something you don't want to improve. IOW, you think that my audio opinions are no good because you don't like my equipment, which is a clear non sequitur and employs a type of the ad hominem fallacy known as circumstantial.
Now, it's the same fallacy when you reject my audio evaluations because you don't like my audio philosophy, which you term "objectivist," even though I don't accept Ayn Rand's philosophy. Now, I don't reject people's opinions on the sound of speakers because they happen to be subjectivists, or democrats, or republicans, or . . .
So, all round, I am clearly a better subjectivist than you are because I listen to speakers before giving others an opinion on how they sound, whereas you often rely on hearsay.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I've explained numerous times why I felt comforatble doing what I did. You don't agree, so be it. Now let it go...
Thetubeguy1954
That says it all.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
If a man can look at himself in the mirror and be comforatble with who he sees and what that person has done, yes it's OK! You see the reality is I don't have to account to you or anyone else Pat. So as long as I'm comfortable with what I've done. Then like you said Hey, it's OK!Thetubeguy1954
PS Pat: Like the Oracle said to Neo "Gee I'd have thought you'd have fiqured that out by now."
.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,It's a known fact that most children hear better than adults do. Perhaps this childs reaction to hearing your beloved Paradigm Signature S2s is a good example of what they're really good for? Click on the link and read for yourself...
Funny part is this owner, like you has an overly high opinion of these speakers (perhaps he's never heard better?) He wants $575 for a very damaged pair of Paradigm Signature S2s.
The man who was trying to sell me his mint used pair of The Paradigm Signature S2s for $600 had a more realistic idea of their actual worth. He told me: "The Paradigm Signature S2s actually sound really good, until you put them side by side with some of the better monitors like your (my) Aliantes, Talons or the Sonus Fabers. Then their faults are painfully obvious and unfortunately all you ever seem to hear from that point on."
Hey a used pair of Aliante Pinafarina Ones are selling for $2799 on Audiogon as we speak!
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1170185210:^)
Thetubeguy1954
Your taste in speakers is of little interest to me. If you like tube amplifiers, that's fine with me. If you want to waste your money on expensive interconnects and speaker cables, that's fine with me, too.You forget, I used to own Quad ESL-63s.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I could just as easily state that you don't discuss logically also! I loved debating in my youth, but people don't debate here. One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them. However when I do that with you you get upset.
Like you I find your taste in speakers is of little interest to me. If you like solid state amplifiers, that's fine with me. If you want to believe it's a waste of money buying expensive interconnects and speaker cables, that's fine with me, too.
As far as you having owned Quad ESL-63s in the past. I'm not sure if you ever told me that or not. In any event I didn't remember or know that. However the fact that you went from Quad ESL-63's to Paradigm Signature S2s says enough to me!
I don't want to argue with you Pat. I've told you a few times now to LET IT GO, but it appears you'd prefer to keep it going...
Thetubeguy1954
"One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them."Ah yes! Instead of talking about the subject matter, attacking the person or his circumstances rather than talking about audio. Quoting out of context and changing the meaning. But then I already knew that. Nice to see you admit it--although you probably hadn't realized you did.
"However the fact that you went from Quad ESL-63's to Paradigm Signature S2s says enough to me!"
Again illustrating how little you know room effects.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,In response to my statement: "One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them." You replied: Ah yes! Instead of talking about the subject matter, attacking the person or his circumstances rather than talking about audio. Quoting out of context and changing the meaning. But then I already knew that. Nice to see you admit it--although you probably hadn't realized you did.
Which quite obviously shows me you aren't really reading my posts! If you had you'd see how sadly mistaken this reply of yours is. I use a person's own words against them to talk about the subject matter. Unfortunately as is often the case, when a person's own words are used to defend a POV that's in disagreement with their own belief system they feel attacked, like they're being quoting out of context or that quoting them somehow changes the meaning of what they've said, like you apparently do.
This is precisely what happened when I quoted directly word for word your comments about your speakers in Inmate's Systems, which I've noticed you've since changed! You even attacked what I said as being false UNTIL you realized I was quoting you. That's why I said, "One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them." People will often say conflicting statements, or criticise their own words UNTIL they realize it is their own words. Then like you did here they'll cry in defense I'm being quoted out of context and you're changing the meaning of what I said. But that's NOT what I've done! In fact I'll often give a link to the person's complete post so their words can be read in context. So no Pat, I'm not admitting to anything like you've said I have. Sorry but you are sadly mistaken.
Also Pat you need to realize as opinions are involved many times when discussing audio and differing POVs. The person and their circumstances are as much involved because the person and their circumstances effects their opinions. Thus it's as germane to the discussion as is the actual audio topic. If we were discussing using only facts and no opinions, I might in that case agree with your belief that the person and their circumstances is not germane to the topic being discussed.
I find your reply: Again illustrating how little you know room effects. to my statement of: "However the fact that you went from Quad ESL-63's to Paradigm Signature S2s says enough to me!" to be a perfect example of a Circumstantial Ad Hominem which I'm sure you know is "Circumstantial: A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opponent is offered as evidence against the opponent's position."
Pat when I was talking about replacing Quad ESL-63's with the Paradigm Signature S2s I was not speaking of room interactions in any way. I was speaking about exchanging Quad ESL-63's which many consider to be a world-class speaker for Paradigm Signature S2s which outside of Stereophile, many consider to be upper mid-fi or lower hi-fi at best. My opinion on that matter in no way reflects on what I know about speaker/room interactions. Thus is the reason your statement is a Circumstantial Ad Hominem.
Now Pat when I consider that you've made that speaker exchange, along with your opinions of wires and solid state audio components, it says enough to me!
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
You seem to consistently fail to realize that it doesn't matter to the subject matter whether an ad hominem is true or not."I use a person's own words against them to talk about the subject matter."
Do you even realize how silly that statement is? You just said "against them" and then propose this is somehow to talk about "the subject matter." You have again illustrated what I said.
Then, you go on again against me, rather than saying something about audio:
"I was speaking about exchanging Quad ESL-63's which many consider to be a world-class speaker for Paradigm Signature S2s which outside of Stereophile, many consider to be upper mid-fi or lower hi-fi at best."
So? Incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial. What my system is or whether I have a system at all doesn't prove anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are. And since that's the sole reason you have brought up your opinions of my system (and morricab, who is much nicer than you, also uses this invalid argument), it really is a circumstantial ad hominem--not that you seem to be above using straight ad hominems, which morricab tends to avoid, I think.
One could just as easily say that "many" didn't like the Quad ESL-63 so well and that "many" think the Paradigm Signature speakers are top drawer superb--including the folks at Soundstage and AIG, who, like Stereophile, also do fairly extensive measurements. It might interest you to know that the late Richard C. Heyser did his usual set of measurements and developed some special ones for the Quad ESL-63, and was not all that impressed with them overall, including in his listening. I happen to like them a lot. It's bad enough to use an ad hominem, and even worse when it's false!
I am again wondering whether you have actually heard the Quad ESL-63 (you don't say you have) or are just relying on third party reports.
"Now Pat when I consider that you've made that speaker exchange, along with your opinions of wires and solid state audio components, it says enough to me!"
You continue to reiterate that you are arguing against a person rather than his position, and that you use ad hominems instead of supporting your own position and proving that you can hear what you claim you can. In other words, you argue against the person rather than dealing with audio.
My remark about you not knowing much about room acoustics was to show that you actually have no idea why I changed from the Quads to forward radiating speakers. It's an inference which might be incorrect (though I doubt it), but not a circumstantial ad hominem.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I'm discovering it's impossible to hold both an intelligent and civil debate with you. While I can see you're intelligent you're doing everything you can to prevent me from remaining civil with you. For you continue to choose to make personal jabs at me such as morricab, who is much nicer than you or or your remark about me not knowing much about room acoustics. Neither of these comments are germane to our discussion.
From the beginning I told you Pat this was all just opinions, don't take it personal, let it go, let it go, let it go but you couldn't and wouldn't. It appeared to just eat at you that I didn't hold your speakers in high esteem. Or perhaps it bothered you that even at $600 for a mint used pair I turned my nose at them? You started to change in tone from the moment I said: "On another note I read something that might be of interest to you. Paradigm has upgraded their Signature series! The new models are getting beryllium-dome tweeters and cobalt infused aluminium mid/bass drivers. The cost increase is quite modest on the S8 the price changed only $200pr from $6500 to $6700. This might be an upgrade worth looking into "if" you're interested." You replied by stating you were still quite pleased with your Paradigm Signature S2 speakers which is a good thing. But the defensiveness showed up when you mentioning you noticed they have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components and again when you said we are not currently in the market for new main speakers. Even though I specifically said UPGRADE not REPLACE, your walls came up and the tone of thread changed from that point on.
In any event even when I told you Pat it's only my opinions let it go, let it go, let it go you constantly had to have the last thing to say. Once you get like that Pat you revert back to blaming me for using ad hominems and then you start to distort the truth ever so slightly like when you claim: "What my system is or whether I have a system at all doesn't prove anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are." You make this statement as if I've stated differently. Where did this assumption come from Pat? As usual you constantly read way deeper for hidden meanings in what I've said. Please cite where I said that what your system is or whether you have a system at all proves anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are! You cannot because I did not!
As we continue reading this last response of yours you become a mindreader and start divining the reasons I say what I do! For Pat you claim: "And since that's the sole reason you have brought up your opinions of my system." This is just blatantly false Pat. First your assumption that I believe what your system is or whether you have a system at all proves anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are is completely false and something you made up. So your conclusion that it's the sole reason I have brought up my opinions of your system is equally false. It's just one more example of you infering and implying things I've never said or meant Pat! Yet nowhere in this thread was I the one who started mentioning any opinion about your system as a whole. Fact is if you go back and re-read the entire thread you'll see Pat it was you and not me and who started calling your components mid-fi. Your a clever littele trickster Pat. I personally don't care if you use Radio Shack wires, CD Player, speakers, amps etc. In fact I'm surprised you don't considering your opinions on the the audibility of wires and the audible differences among amps.
I refuse to take this as personally as you are and won't resort to your methods of personal attacks (although I have in the past) such as your comments on morricab being nicer than me or your remark about me not knowing much about room acoustics. You have no idea what I do or don't know and you never ask, you always prefer to just infer & imply incorrectly.
However it is my opinion that we need to end this for a myriad of reasons:
1) Our POVs on the audibility of wires are completely opposite and we'll never come to an agreement so what's the purpose in a continued debate on this topic?
2) Our POVs on the audiblility differences among amps are opposite and we'll never come to an agreement so what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic either?3) Your trading Quads ESL-63 for Paradigms Signature S2 mini-monitors isn't what I'd call a logical move or upgrade. Of course you completely disagree with my opinion so once again and we'll never come to an agreement so what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic?
4) Pat if you honestly believe that the Paradigm Sig S2 belongs in Class A (Restricted LF) which Stereophile defines "The best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical considerations; "the least musical compromise. A Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing." Then I believe you really do need to get out a lot more to: 1)listen to a lot of live unamplified music and 2) to audition some honest contenders for a speaker that might possibly be considered capable of musical presentation wherein you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing. Your defense is that even though you boast about Stereophile's Class A status of your speaker over four times in this thread alone that doesn't mean you accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components. Furthermore you state that your mentioning 4X about Stereophile's ratings of your speakers doesn't logically requires you to accept Stereophile's rating system (which you claim don't while constantly mentioning your speakers Stereophile Class A rating), their descriptions of the ratings (which you don't while constantly mentioning your speakers Stereophile Class A rating), nor their reliability is just another example of your being an Audio Politician Pat, i.e. saying one thing while meaning another. Thus we'll never come to an agreement about this so what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic?
I see no intelligent reason for continuing this with you Pat. So go ahead and make one last response so you'll have the last word, I don't care. It's quite obvious that civility and intelligently debating differing POV is wasted apon you.
Thetubeguy1954
Where did I ever say that changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade? Come on now, show me where!! So I DEFY you to do so!!! As I have said (and proved), you constantly make up opinions for me. Q.E.D.N.B. You totally misunderstand what an ad hominem attack is. It's not just saying something unpleasant about you. I can't help it if you don't act as nice as morricab does. That's just too bad, but I don't attack your opinions based on that. But that's what you do: you attack my opinions based on nothing relevant: whether you like my speakers is irrelevant to whether they are true, whether you like my system or even whether I have a system is irrelevant to whether they are true. So you DO use ad hominem attacks, and you attack my system and even attack me for precisely that reason: you want to discredit my opinions.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,No matter what you say after this I'll NOT respond because your back to your dirty little tricks.
I NEVER said you claimed that changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade! Learn to read Pat! What I specifically said word-for-word was: 3) Your trading Quads ESL-63 for Paradigms Signature S2 mini-monitors isn't what I'd Did you see that Pat? I used the word I'd, thus it's my opinion, I didn't say what you'd hence it's not something you said, a logical move or upgrade.
Now as I know you'd completely disagree with my opinion once again and we'll never come to an agreement, what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic? There is none!
Yet you make up something I didn't say i.e. (You) sa(id) that changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade? And then you have the nerve to challenge me to show you where I said the statement you completely made up in Pat's audio fantasy land!! So now I DEFY you Pat to show where I said that was your opinion and not mine! As I have said and once again proved, you constantly make up things I've supposedly said that just aren't true. I'm trying to avoid calling you a liar again but you're getting pretty close to it with this new fantasy statement Pat.
Just like I've stated before in the link you provided, Pat this post you've just made has got to be another one of the most off-base, illogical responses I've ever seen on AA. Once again you 're attributing things to me I didn't say, mean or believe. I've never said that you stated changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade, that thought ONLY exists in your head and only in Pat's weird audio world. What I said was: trading Quads ESL-63 for Paradigms Signature S2 mini-monitors isn't what I'd call a logical move or upgrade.
Just go on and continue to play your childish games Pat. Continue to feel like you know the truth, but rest assured you don't. I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to and at least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do. Because yes IMO your system isn't as capable as many others I've heard. I'm not claiming it's crap, it's just there's much better out there.
With that this discussion is over, no matter how many more fantasy comments you want to attribute to me that's aren't true, I'll not waste one more second discussing with a person who makes up at will comments I haven't said and then demands I show him proof of things I didn't say in the first place. Pat you need help, it obvious you are taking this way to personally and I don't wish to remain involved in this matter any longer...
Bye, Bye Pat. Thetubeguy1954
That's what it meant in context, you try to rip your own statements out of their context when challenged how silly they are. Are you admitting that you were making comments which were irrelevant to the discussion?And since you have no idea of the reasons for the change from electrostatics to forward radiating speakers, it is really silly of you to put forward an opinion as to whether it was a "logical" change. You have utterly no basis for it and seemingly cannot imagine why anyone would do so.
Your earlier remarks on a supposed upgrade of the Paradigm Signature S2 indicated you thought that I could have my speakers upgraded to a newer version for around $200. I've never known Paradigm to do that. You have absolutely no basis for this statement and as usual, you provided no link. I have simply pointed out that it was probably a little more complicated than changing the drivers and that there is no evidence that Paradigm is offering upgrades to the first model and that one would probably have to purchase the new model to get it You are imagining a difference in tone based on that. But you seem to regard almost anything that proves you wrong as a change in tone.BTW, have you heard the Quad ESL-63, or are you simply relying on its reputation?
TG54
"I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to and at least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do. Because yes IMO your system isn't as capable as many others I've heard. I'm not claiming it's crap, it's just there's much better out there."There we go again, with two main fallacies this time. The first is the circumstantial ad hominem, to try to counter my audio philosophy by making remarks about the quality of my system. But, no matter how you cut it, it's a fallacious argument, and your continued iterations. Such remarks about me do nothing to prove you can hear what you claim you do.
Second, you personalize, which is probably the more vicious fallacy. I and some others have pointed out that apparently NO ONE has proved they can hear the differences between wires suitable for high fidelity use in normal applications. For example, Richard has been asking for such proof on the net since 1996, but so far it hasn't been forthcoming and of course, you have provided none, either, only a fatuous promise you would IF you did a controlled DBT. My dealer tried to use the same argument, that he's sure he *would* be able to hear the difference between interconnects and speaker wires in a DBT. Totally worthless statement as data! All that is required is to prove you or anyone can hear such differences, whether or not we can hear it or not.You try to personalize to me, and try to maintain I am trying to impose my limitations on everyone else--you're hardly the first to come up with such silliness and you won't be the last. But it is a misrepresentation and one which I believe is quite deliberate.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
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