 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
74.106.240.93
In Reply to: Another Sample Of An Audio Component That Doesn't Measure Well, But Sounds Great. posted by thetubeguy1954 on November 7, 2006 at 09:17:55:
From a technical point of view, there are DACs which measure considerably better in many respects. However, as to what is likely to be heard, most of them are OK, although in his review for Stereophile, linked below, JA does indeed think that some of the distortion may be audible:"However, the absence of an output low-pass filter means that the mix of 19kHz and 20kHz tones I use to test this performance aspect results in aliased tones being dumped back down into the audioband, which can be seen in fig.11. The audibility of this behavior is unpredictable, as it will very much depend on the music's spectral content. However, I do wonder if it is associated with the softness of the 4715's sound noted by AD."
So, despite your doubts, it seems that a technical explanation for some particular sonic features of the DAC is available. So, while it may not measure particularly well in some respects from a technical point of view (and I have to take JA's word for it), it does not seem to measure badly in ways which make it sound bad--it has received a Class B rating in Stereophile, though there is some disagreement about that from the staff.
So there is an ambiguity in stating that the DAC measures badly because there are two standards: one technical and one psychoacoustic. Many products measure well enough to sound quite good, even though there are ones which outperform them technically. The same considerations apply to other products such as many tube amps.
There are two fundamental goals for a sound system: 1) accuracy, and 2) pleasantness. It is not for me to tell anyone what the sonic goals of their system should be.
You consider such DACs to be more accurate to the real thing than other DACs you have used, which is your privilege, but you have not said you have actually done a live vs. recorded test, much less a controlled blind one.
JA mentions some other problems with the 47 Labs DAC and transport but they have to do with compatibility. It will sound rather bright on CDs with pre-emphasis, it is not notably low on jitter, and it has lower distortion into a relatively low input impedance, a rather unexpected result.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Follow Ups:
Hi Pat,I appreciate the civilness and informative nature of this reply of yours -- thanks! If I appeared to imply that I had doubts as to whether or a technical explanation was available for some particular sonic features of the Kusunoki-style I didn't mean to. The main reasons why I brought up the use of these types of DACs where:
1) I wanted to find another type of audio component, that like SET's do, usually measure poorly but sound "good" i.e. it replicates music that sounds more like live umamplified instruments should, than do many of the better measuring DACs!
2) I wanted to remove tubes and the idea that it was tubes euphonically coloring the music from the arguement/debate when discussing how can an audio component measure poorly yet replicate music accurately. I know the Zanden uses tubes but some of the Kusunoki-style DACs don't! So in my POV the Kusunoki-style DACs fit the bill precisely in that regard. They, like an SET, may not measure particularly well in some respects from a technically, yet despite that it does not seem to measure badly in ways which make it sound bad.
Where I believe we would have a major disagreement is in what actually constitutes the more accurate replication of live music. If I am understanding you correctly you'd say that the more accurate replication would come from an amp where essentially what goes in is what comes only +20dB. In which case a test-machine would be the final arbitrator of what is and isn't accurate. Wherein I'd say the more accurate amp would essentially be one that replicated live music more accurately as deteremined by the ear/brain combo, which NEVER mistakes live for recorded music or visa versa. In which case my ear/brain combo would be the final arbitrator. I know you and I will never agree on which of these constitutes the more accurate replication and that's ok! Different strokes for different folks, otherwise we'd all be listening to only tubed or solid state amps. I am in agreement with your assessment that it is not for us to tell anyone else what the sonic goals of their system should be.
Pat as far as your comment that I consider such DACs to be more accurate to the real thing than other DACs, this is again something I must apologize for if you feel I implied it, I didn't mean to imply that at all. I've never used or heard any of the Kusunoki-style DACs. So I do not know if I would find them to be more accurate in replicating what live music sounds like or not. It's so hard to try and discuss/debate on the internet. What I feel is perfectly clear, others read differently. I thought I was being quite clear when I said: So far IMHO SETs do that better than any other amplifier technology I've ever heard. But because of the: "it sounds more realistic, not it doesn't' it's euphonic colored" back and forth arguement that never goes anywhere but endless repitions of it sounds more realistic, not it's euphonic colored. I looked around for another example of this type of measure poorly yet replicate live music more realistically audio component and found it! Or at least I believe I have in the Zanden, 47lab, Audio Note use Kusunoki-style DACs. I was only trying to find another type of audio component that like SET's do, measure poorly yet have what many believe is a more faithful replication of live music. I trusted HP's judgement on this as I found that when I can audtion components he's reviewed I tend to agree with his opinion of it. I also trust the ears of Anthony Cordesman and Jon Valin.
Hell Don T's berating me for stating what he feels is the obvious, i.e. that my comments are my opinions, but as you know Pat in the past here others have berated me for not doing that very same! In their view because I didn't state it was my opinion I was stating it as a fact! It's quite difficult to know how others will interpet what's posted. That's why I always say ask questions if my postion isn't clear. I would have thought that because I never mentioned having listened to a Kusunoki-style DAC it would be clear I hadn't. I guess I was mistaken. So no haven't actually done a live vs. recorded test. I don't have the means even if I had one I could listen to-but I'd definitely trust my ears on the matter. I'd only do blind test to prove to non-believers I could tell a Kusunoki-style DAC from a non-Kusunoki-style DACs if and when I ever definitively stated I could.
As far as JA thinking on the unit, that some of the distortion may be audible, it will sound rather bright on CDs with pre-emphasis, it is not notably low on jitter, it has lower distortion into a relatively low input impedance, a rather unexpected result and there's some other problems with the 47 Labs DAC and transport but they have to do with compatibility. I'd trust HP's judgement anyday before JA's and HP states on pg 119 of issue 167 ...the Lab 47 Pi/Tracer, to my way of thinking, the very best CD playback system I've heard yet. Which only furthers the point I was attempting to make. Here's another different type of audio component and one which doesn't always use tubes acts like SET's do, which measures poorly yet replicates music that sounds more like live music than many other components that measure better do! So something other than the tubes are euphonically coloring the music must be going on.
Pat as I've said more than once here no one I know has ever mistaken live music for recorded or visa versa. Although the ear can be fooled it appears to be very relaible when determining live vs recorded music. What if we could find an open-minded sound engineer that would be willing to setup test equipment correctly. Do you think it's possible to get the test machine to determine there were no measurable differences between a live softly played guitar in a room and a recording of that guitar played in the same room? I do! What if we could fool a test machine into reporting the recording was indistinguishable from live musician? How much credence would you give measured tests then? What if at the very same time anyone listening always recognized the difference between the live music and the recording? Would you then believe the ear/brain combo was the more accurate of the two in recognizing live vs recorded music? Would designers then start to also give more credence and delve deeper into how the ear/brain combo determines live vs recorded music? I don't know, but the possibility of that excites me!
On another note I read something that might be of interest to you. Paradigm has upgraded their Signature series! The new models are getting beryllium-dome tweeters and cobalt infused aluminium mid/bass drivers. The cost increase is quite modest on the S8 the price changed only $200pr from $6500 to $6700. This might be an upgrade worth looking into "if" you're interested.
Good talking with you. Keep enjoying the music Pat -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
As it happens, I have actually heard a set of 47 Labs electronics, all placed on a small square board, which included CD transport, DAC, preamp, and amplifier functions, not to mention expensive cables. I presume it had the DAC in question. I didn't notice anything "special" about the sound. The speakers used were "only" Paradigm Reference Studio 40, v. 3, but they are pretty good speakers, though not quite to my taste, with excellent dispersion and a stable image, but having some mild colorations noticeable in the upper strings. IOW, they sounded like Studio 40, v. 3 speakers to me even with the expensive electronics.If you play pre-emphasized CDs without the de-emphasis compensation circuitry (it works automatically when needed on most players), they WILL sound bright on those CDs. Fortunately for 47 Labs owners, most CDs don't have it.
Manufacturers are likely to come out with new versions of their speakers from time to time. I'm still quite pleased with my Paradigm Signature S2 speakers (which I notice have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components) and we are not currently in the market for new main speakers.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Hi Pat,Well as you've heard the 47 Labs personally you're one up on me in that area. To you it didn't sound special and to Harry Pearson it's ...the very best CD playback system (he's) heard yet. I find the vast difference in your opinions to be quite interesting.
As I haven't heard the 47 Labs myself and I know my beliefs and preferences are closer to HP's than yours, I think I'll give more credence to his opinion. That's not meant as a slight to you in anyway. I've never auditioned any components and compared notes with you. However I've heard components HP has reviewed in the past and agreed more often than disagreed with his assessment of them. So that why his opinion gets more credence from me.
Perhaps to notice just how good the 47 Labs is would require having it in a system like the one HP did? HP was using the 47 Labs with Hanson Audio King speakers @ $60K (which HP said were in my paraphrase the superior of virtually every enclosure-type speaker which he's had experience with!) Burmester 04 preamp & 911 amps @ $44K, all Nordost Valhalla wires and Nordost's Thor power conditioner to boot @ GOD knows how many $K! The result? According to HP "...the results not quite literally, but almost---took my breath away."
As far as the Paradigm's I remembered awhile back you asked AJinFLA "How do the Summa and the Orion compare soundwise? They're quite different designs and people here who have heard either one say they're excellent." to which I said " "Pat why do you care when your Paradigm S2's have as you say smooth accurate response, excellent stereo imaging, deep bass response to below 20 Hz and more than adequate volume levels." Which started that whole giant fiasco between us when you responded "That's one of the silliest remarks you have made so far! I have to chuckle. It's quite obvious you are NOT familiar with my speakers, though in other threads you have had the gall to comment on them." because you missed where I said as you say and thought those were my opinion of the S2's when I was quoting your opinion of them from your remarks in Inmates Systems.
In any event not wishing to rehash that again, I knew you weren't looking for new speakers and appear quite happy with what you own. So I thought maybe you'd be interested in tweaking better performance from them. I said UPGRADE, not REPLACE. I thought you might wish to contact Paradigm about the possibilty of replacing your current tweeter & midbass with their new beryllium-dome tweeters and cobalt infused aluminium mid/bass drivers. As the cost increase is quite modest on the S8 the price changed only $200pr from $6500 to $6700. I cannot see how it could cost anymore than that to upgrade your tweeter & midbass as well. Heck if you get a chance go listen to the new version and if it does actually sound better a $200 investment might be well worth the improvement, no? Just thought this might be an upgrade worth looking into (I know I'd look into if Aliante made such an upgrade available for only $200) Believe it or not I was trying to help you not hurt you...
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
Strange that you take HP's word for the sound quality.Paradigm is upgrading some of its product lines, and I have heard rumours that the Signature Series is being upgraded. Are they in fact offering retroactive upgrades? You have not supplied any link. I am not aware that Paradigm has offered retroactive upgrades to their products in the past. It would probably be rather more involved than merely changing the drivers.
It is true that my system is wide range, with useful response to below 20 Hz, that is sounds smooth and neutral and provides excellent stereo imaging. It's true I think my main speakers are first class, along with some excellent speaker reviewers such as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider. But there are a number of speakers of interesting design I would like to audition including the Summa and the Orion. Why shouldn't I?
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Hi Pat,I don't know why you'd find it strange that I'd take HP's word for the sound quality of the 47 Labs component. I explained to you that in the past when I was able to audition components HP had reviewed, more often I agreed than disagreed with his assessment of those components. So considering that, chances are most likely I'd agree with his assessment again. It's not a 100% certainty, but it's more likely than not. Then of course one needs to consider that:
1) HP auditioned the component on a group of very well respected components
2) My beliefs and preferences in audio are closer to HP's than they are to yours.So yes I trusted HP's assessment of the 47 Labs component over yours. That of course could change if I heard it myself and disagreed with HP's assessment, but until that happens, I'll give his opinion the benefit of the doubt. That's really not much different than when you said I have to take JA's word for it, is it? You'll accept JA's word about how the 47 Lab measures, but it's strange if I accept HP's word about how the 47 Labs sounds? IMHO you're doing the same thing I am, just in a different area about the 47 Lab component.
====================================================================
Our differences beliefs and preferences in audio is brought into light by what you said in the last paragraph of your post. I don't personally believe your Paradigm Signature S2 speakers are first class. When I did a direct comparison with the Aliante Pinafarina Ones I found the Aliante's to be considerably better and I don't even believe the Aliante's are first class. Which is why I am restoring the RCA LC9A's!Now as far as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider being considered "excellent speaker reviewers" like you said they are. I have to tell you Pat that I have serious doubts in that area as well. If they really believe the Paradigm Signature S2 speakers are worthy of Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components list. I find their judgement to be quite suspect. Pat I understand there a degrees within a given Class of audio components, just like 90-100 is A in school. However in Stereophile's own words Class A components must have, which means this MUST define the Paradigm Sig. S2s, "The best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical considerations; "the least musical compromise. A Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing. Sorry but that doesn't describe the Paradigm Sig. S2s at all. I've heard the Paradigm Sig. S2, they're not a bad speaker, but they are hardly capable of producing the best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical considerations. They don't respresent the least musical compromise in speakers, nor did they replicate music wherein I didn't have to make a leap of faith to believe I am hearing the real thing either. Even the Aliante's were considerably better and I don't even think they should honestly be rated Class A. Not when there are other 2-way monitor-type speakers like the Magico Mini or some of the more expensive Sonus Fabers and that's only looking at monitor type. Think of how many floor standing speakers fit into this catagory as well and you'll see why I don't find the 2-way, monitor-type Paradigm Sig S2 worthy of being in Class A, even when the Restricted LF status is added.
Pat it's not meant as a slight, I'm not including my speakers here either. If you honestly believe your Paradigm Sig. S2s are capable of the best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical onsiderations and provide you with the least musical compromise of all speakers that are of restricted LF status, so be it! But if that's the case you must be fairly well convinced you're hearing live music when you turn your system on, because a Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing, or say JA says.
I am in 100% complete agreement that there are a number of interesting speakers designs out there. Like you, I would like to audition many of them. Like you said, Why shouldn't I? The the Summa doesn't intrigue me and the Orion would require too many extra amps, wires, etc for me to be seriously interested in them, although I'd still like to hear them someday. Pat I am only stating my opinion, please don't get defensive, ok? Like you or someone else here once told me, not agreeing with you is not the same as attacking you.
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
I've never heard the Magico Mini; I have heard the SF Cremona Auditor, which is a very nice speaker which I thought sounded very similar to the Paradigm Signature S2 but at twice the cost.My use of the Stereophile Recommended Components ratings was simply to point out that some eminent reviewers regard them as very good speakers, by no means mid-fi. I don't have to accept the hype that Stereophile gives said ratings and I don't.
I know that a number of live vs. recorded demonstrations have been done. John Dunlavy did them. McIntosh apparently did them quite regularly to the general public, and I think Quad did some, too. They apparently have been very impressive. Please note I said they were demonstrations, not DBTs. But a demonstration in a large room, say a concert hall, is not a demonstration in a home environment, which would have quite different acoustics.
I am little interested in any reviewer's purely subjective remarks about the sound quality of electronics, except for signal processors, unless supported by objective data.
Since speakers demonstrably do sound different, I take some interest in the evaluations even of purely subjective reviewers and of course, audiophiles.
As for speakers reviewers, I find that reviewers such as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall of AIG, Doug Schneider, Don Keele, Tom Nousaine, and Tom Lyle, like many of the same speakers I do. I note that all those include significant measured data in their reviews.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Hello Again Pat,I too have not yet heard the Magico Minis, but they seem to be getting nothing but praise from those who have heard them. I have to admit I'd really like to hear the Magico Minis if I could. I have not yet heard the SF Cremona Auditor, however I was told by a person visiting my home and by the person who sold me the Aliantes, the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar. If that's true and I don't know if it is then I have a good idea of what the Sonus Fabers sound like.
Pat when you say you've heard the SF Cremona Auditor, which you thought sounded very similar to the Paradigm Signature S2 but at twice the cost. Was this subjective judgement made in a side-by-side comparison or soley based on having heard both speakers at different times, on different systems in different locations?
As you know I compared the Aliantes (which I've been told sound very much like the SF Cremona Auditor) and the Paradigm Signature S2s side-by-side in the same room on the same system. Although I didn't think the Paradigm Signature S2s were a bad, they definitely aren't close to being in the same league as the Aliante's. If the Aliante's are Class B in Stereophile-speak then I'd rate the Paradigm Signature S2s as Class C. As I stated before although I haven't heard the SF Cremona Auditor personally "IF" they sound anything like the Aliantes do, I could never say I have heard the SF Cremona Auditor, which is a very nice speaker and I thought sounded very similar to the Paradigm Signature S2 but at twice the cost, without laughing. However as that is YOUR subjective opinion and I cannot fault it as that, even though I disagree with it completely as stated.
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
No, unfortunately they were in different dealers' showrooms as so often happens when shopping, but both were well set up well away from the walls and driven by solid state amplifiers. I was using very familiar program material. Like the S2, the SF Cremona Auditors seemed to have no obvious colorations or anomalies in their sound other than the lack of deep bass, which I remedy with a subwoofer. It would be nice to be able to compare speakers directly but that is very often difficult to arrange, especially when one is traveling.I have been trying out my speakers with something closer to near field listening. The place my wife prefers them is not quite the best with some material, but I can move them forward when I want and this seems to work very well with the few recording with which I have tried it, mostly orchestral, I think, as vocals work well in either placement.
I should point out that I have nothing against tubes with the right speakers for them. The reasons I don't want them tend to be related to reliability, cost, consistency, and compatibility. With good solid state amps, I can be pretty sure that the frequency response I get from the speakers in the store will be very like their FR at home. There are also speakers that sound a lot better with solid state, the SF Concerto Grand Piano, for example, and a much lesser speaker, the Usher X-719 (which I didn't really like all that well anyway). Having an accurate, powerful amplifier with a low output impedance effectively removes a variable and once I get the speakers in the house, I don't have to shop around for an amp that makes them sound right. I think most speakers are designed with a low source impedance in mind, though there are some exceptions.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I think your comparison of the SF Cremona Auditors & your Paradigm Sig S2 is unfair. Thus the conclusion you arrived at, i.e. "I have heard the SF Cremona Auditor, which is a very nice speaker which I thought sounded very similar to the Paradigm Signature S2 but at twice the cost." is suspect at best. Why do I feel that way?
When one is attempting to subjectively evaluate the differences in a given component, whether it's a speaker, amp, CDP, interconnect etc. It necessary to keep EVERYTHING constant, except the one component you're attempting to subjectively evaluate. Thus if the room, amp, preamp, CDP and wires all remain the same and only the speakers are changed it's a good bet that any differences heard are then attributable to the speaker. This is precisely what I did when comparing the Paradigm Sig S2s to the Aliante Pinafarina Ones. However when the evaluation of two different speakers is done in different rooms, using different amps, preamps, CDPs and wires. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to know, what differences heard are then attributable to just the speaker. Thus any conclusion reached like stating that speaker A sounds very much like speaker B but at 2X the cost, loses any credibility as well. There are just too may differences to attribute accurately which are a result of the speakers being different.
So although I believe you when you state, after you hearing the SF Cremona Auditors in a completely different room (a dealers' showroom) with different solid state amplifiers and probably different wires and CDP or TT, that you thought the SF Cremona Auditor, sounded very similar to the Paradigm Signature S2. I'd have to express being shocked if you felt that was a fair or accurate evaluation. The use of very familiar program material is hardly a remedy to the many problems raised in doing a fair and accurate speaker evaluation under such circumstances.
To your credit you admit it would be nice to be able to compare speakers directly, which I agree is very difficult if not impossible to arrange, especially when one is traveling. So I believe you're expressing your opinion based strictly one what you heard, knowing full well it wasn't a fair or accurate evaluation. I hope the day arrives when you get to make a direct comparison in your own home, between the SF Cremona Auditors or another 2-way monitor-type speaker of that caliber & your Paradigm Sig S2s. I'd be curious of your assessment of the two different speakers under those circumstances.
On another note, I understand your stated reasons for not wanting tubed amps, i.e. being related to reliability, cost, consistency, and compatibility. There was a time when some of the reasons were reasons I didn't own a tube amp as well. The idea that from the moment I first turn it on, the tubes are slowly but surely degenerating bothered me quite a bit. However once I heard a really good tube amp that all changed. Why? because once I listened to a good tubed amp (and just like with solidtstate, not all tubed amps are made equally well) I heard them get the gestalt of live music i.e. fuller, more realistic tones, the lifelike presence of the musicians and their instruments, an airer more three dimensional image and a wider deeper soundtstage that even the best solidstate amps lacked. The best analogy I can give you is this a solidstate amp projects an illusion of music thats like the best photograph you can imagine. Whereas a tubed amp projects an illusion of music thats like the best hologram you can imagine. It's just closer to the truth and so much so, that I no longer cared that the tubes are degenerating from the moment thet're first turned on. I went so far as to buy 6 prs of Bendix 6900 tubes & 10 prs of Mazda "chrome-plate" 6189 tubes, which should last the lifetime of my amp. Of course I'll still need some 845 tubes and I want the new 845M "metal-plate" ones of course.
It was really nice talking with you Pat. This was the best and most informative series of posts I've ever had with you. I'm looking forward to more of the same in the future...
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
Room effects dominate below 300-400 Hz or so. In this case, the speakers were in fairly good sized rooms well away from the walls, as I said, so the acoustics were similar. This does not necessarily mean they will sound the same in the room at home. So it was relatively easy to assess what the speakers can do, whether they have a smooth response, whether any colorations stick out, whether the dispersion is even, whether there are diffraction problems, what sort of image they can project, and so on.I normally expect the differences in sound between suitable SS amplifiers (or others with a low output impedance), CDPs, interconnects, and cables to be minimal.
You heard the Paradigm S2 using your tube amp. So it is probable they did not sound the same as with a SS amp. Whether you prefer tubes with them is up to you.
I did hear the SF Cremona Auditor, you haven't, but are relying on someone else's word for it. I thought they and the S2 were about equal in sound quality and sounded quite similar, within the limits of long term acoustic memory (hours). It was my audition for my purposes and with a view to spending my money, so really doesn't matter whether you think it fair or not. But then we seldom can shop under ideal conditions. It would have been extremely difficult to get both speakers at home for a home trial, there being no SF dealer near. Stereophile puts the SF Cremona Auditor in Class B Retricted LF, but that is apparently another reviewer's opinion, whereas JA reviewed the S2.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,You state that room effects dominate below 300-400 Hz or so. I don't know if that's the correct frequency or not when room effects dominate.
TG54 From what I've read, I'd state when put simply: The basic rule for sound dispersion is that those sound frequencies with wavelengths longer than their source diaphragm spread out in all directions, whereas frequencies with shorter wavelengths than the diaphragm are beamed forward. Because low frequencies always have relatively long wavelengths, their sound will almost always spread out evenly in every direction. (The only real exceptions are with dipole panel speakers and full-range horns, both of which are relatively rare special cases.) and The basic rule for rooms is that the boundaries -- walls, ceiling, and floor -- will either absorb or reflect the soundwaves that strike them. The ratio of reflection to absorption will vary according to a number of factors, from the type of surface covering to the way the room was built. The reflection ratio will be much higher at low than at higher frequencies. But whether this starts at 300-400Hz or lower I don't know.
==============================================================
Next Pat you stated: In this case, the speakers were in fairly good sized rooms well away from the walls, as I said, so the acoustics were similar.TG54 So from what you say, I take it you have your speakers setup in a fairly good sized room, well away from the walls and with acoustics that were very similar to a dealers showroom? Care to define your rooms dimensions? I'd like to know what you consider a fairly good sized room to be. I find it a fairly interesting thing that you believe the acoustics were similar considering how poorly most dealers showrooms sound.
===================================================================
This does not necessarily mean they will sound the same in the room at home.TG54 Pat it's almost an absolute certainty they will not sound the same in the room at home as they did in a dealers showroom. This is actually one of the most common things people complain about, i.e. just how different the component purchased sounds in their room at home as opposed to how it did in a dealers showroom. Furthermore it's very probable that your room at home is most likely differently shaped, differently sized and has different reflective/absorbative traits on the walls, ceiling and floor than the dealers showroom, etc. That I'm absolutely amazed that you believe it was relatively easy to assess what the speakers can do! You who always want verification of others claims via DBT's are claiming to be able to do easily what even Subjectivists don't claim is easy, but rather almost impossible.
==================================================================
I normally expect the differences in sound between suitable SS amplifiers (or others with a low output impedance), CDPs, interconnects, and cables to be minimal.TG54 Of course you know I disagree with that belief 100%.
==================================================================
Pat stated I heard the Paradigm S2 using my tube amp. So it is probable they did not sound the same as with a SS amp. Whether you prefer tubes with them is up to you.TG54 I'm sure it didn't sound the same on my Mastersound as it would on a solidstate amp, but so what? I, at the very least, compared the Paradigm Sig S2, to the Aliante Pinafarina Ones which are similar in design, in the same exact room, using the same exact amp, CDP and wires. So the only thing that changed were the speakers. IMHO it was a much more fair and accurate evaluation of what the 2 speakers can or cannot do. Again I say, your conclusions are suspect --- at best!
===================================================================
Pat continues with I thought SF Cremona Auditor and the S2 were about equal in sound quality and sounded quite similar, within the limits of long term acoustic memory (hours). It was my audition for my purposes and with a view to spending my money, so really doesn't matter whether you think it fair or not.TG54 Pat in the scheme of things my subjective opinions are as valid as yours. In that context my opinion that the "evaluation" of the two speakers was unfair and inaccurate matters as much as yours does. So unless you believe my Aliantes are considerably superior to the SF Cremona Auditor (which I suppose is possible, but I considered them equals of the SF Cremona Auditors) when I performed my evaluation of the Paradigm Sig S2 vs Aliante PF Ones the Alaintes were an all-around better speaker and noticeably so.
===================================================================
TG54 Pat if you honestly believe that the Paradigm Sig S2 belongs in Class A (Restricted LF) which Stereophile defines "The best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical considerations; "the least musical compromise. A Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing." Then my friend you really do need to get out a lot more to: 1)listen to a lot of live unamplified music and 2) to audition some honest contenders for a speaker that might possibly be considered capable of musical presentation wherein you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing. One that comes to mind is the Kharma Mini Exquisite @ $45K. Although a floorstander it's similar to the S2 in that it]s a 2-way and uses only a 1" concave diamind tweeter & a 7" ceramic mid/woofer. That speaker might honestly be a canidate for Stereophiles Class A (Restricted LF) but your Paradigm Sig S2's and my Aliantes definitely aren't! No matter what JA or any other reviewer says...Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
I gave you a link to a White Paper by Dr. Floyd Toole but it seems to work only intermittently for some reason. The article in question is the last one on the list. His research is where I got the 300-400 Hz figure from, but please note I have not said the room has no effect above that. I link to a page where you can link to the list of White Papers. The last one is the most relevant.Why you are bringing in absorbtion rates at this point I can't say. This has to do with the waves traveling different paths interfering with each other in the bass and lower mids, producing an uneven response for the listener. Oh well, maybe if you look at Dr. Toole's graph.
Both show rooms were big enough that the speakers were 8 feet or more from the side walls, which is plenty, so the only near reflections were from the floor. As well, I only said I could get an idea of what the speakers "can" do (I heard them do it, after all!), not what they will do at home in a smaller acoustic. And, if a dealer is not willing to provide a reasonable placement for the speakers, then I will go elsewhere. But if a speaker isn't smooth, neutral, and wide dispersion in a decent set up in a show room, then it won't have those qualities at home. Trust me.
I haven't heard your speakers and know very little about them. Just going by what you say, I presume they are very good speakers. I'm wondering how you can assess the SF Cremona Auditor if you haven't heard them.
TG54
"Pat if you honestly believe that the Paradigm Sig S2 belongs in Class A (Restricted LF) which Stereophile defines "The best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical considerations; "the least musical compromise. A Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing."Again, I told you already that I do not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components. I suppose I'll just have to telling you that, although so far it hasn't had any effect. Stereo isn't real, it's an illusion, it's not the real thing. But Stereophile did put the Paradigm S2 in their Class A Restricted LF--I had no influence on their decision to do so. So they must think highly of it. You don't have to agree with them.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,You asked me: I'm wondering how you can assess the SF Cremona Auditor if you haven't heard them.
I know I informed you I had been told the Aliantes sound very much like the SF Cremona Auditor. IIRC I also mentioned it was the man who sold me the Aliantes who told me that. So yes I trusted another person's judgement, very much like you want me to trust yours. What I didn't tell you then, because I didn't want to appear like I was disparging your speakers, was that the man who sold me the Aliantes compared them directly to the SF Cremona Auditor, in the same room, using all the same components. After doing that he actually prefered the Aliantes Pinafarina Ones at that price point, so he bought them.
Does that mean I'd agree 100% with his opinion? I don't know, like you said I haven't personally heard SF Cremona Auditor. However the sonic characteristics he ascribed to the Aliantes is basically what I am hearing here as well. So we appear to "hear" the same things and chances are I'd agree with his assessment of the SF Cremona Auditor too. Then I have to weigh his opinion against yours, a person, who hears different things than I did when I compared the Paradigm Sig S2 to the Aliante Pinafarina One and who also doesn't believe the same things I do about differences in amps, wires etc. So in that case I'll err on the side of caution and agree with the person who hears what I hear and believes what I believe.
===================================================================
Pat as far as your comment of: Again, I told you already that I do not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components. I suppose I'll just have to telling you that, although so far it hasn't had any effect.Yes Pat you will have to keep repeating that as long as you keep mentioning Stereo-Review-Phile's Class A (Restricted LF) status of your speaker over & over again like you do as seen in these posts of yours...
1) I'm still quite pleased with my Paradigm Signature S2 speakers (which I notice have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components)
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25680.html2) It's true I think my main speakers are first class, along with some excellent speaker reviewers such as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25691.html3) Stereophile puts the SF Cremona Auditor in Class B Retricted LF, but that is apparently another reviewer's opinion, whereas JA reviewed the S2.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25813.html4) ...my speakers judged by Stereophile to be Class A Restricted LF! You must be going by price and age because you can have no other objective basis for such an assessment.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25698.htmlSomeone who boasts about Stereophile's status of their speaker in their posts is hardly the actions of a person who does not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components like you are now professing. So YES Pat I suppose you'll just have to telling me that. For your actions belie your words and keep them from having your desired effect. In any event this isn't meant to discredit you, but rather to explain why when you state you do not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components, I have trouble accepting those words from you at their face value.
Keep enjoying the music & have a Happy Thanksgiving -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
You take a bunch of texts and read things into them that are not there. It seems to be just the way you are.Stereophile gives ratings. I point out at what level they put some products. The point is that while you and morricab may think my speakers to be mid-fi, there are other very knowledgeable and experienced people who think they are very near the top. Let's put you and morricab in the scales on one side and John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider in the other tray . . . . hmmmm! In any case, I would not buy a speaker based on anyone's recommendation.
You utterly fail to notice the implication when I pointed out that JA reviewed my speakers but apparently another reviewer did the SF Cremona Auditor, whereas I would have rated it with mine and some others. Such ratings have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Nothing I have said logically requires me to accept Stereophile's rating system (which I don't), their descriptions of the ratings (which I don't), nor their reliability. Reviewer's opinions about speakers are helping for making an audition list, that's all.
TG54
"So yes I trusted another person's judgement, very much like you want me to trust yours."Where have I said I wanted you to trust my judgment about sound quality? Citations, please.
TG54
"Yes Pat you will have to keep repeating that as long as you keep mentioning Stereo-Review-Phile's Class A (Restricted LF) status of your speaker"LOL. It apparently just bugs you that my speakers got a Class A Restricted LF rating in Stereophile and yours haven't.
But let's look at the context in which both of you referred to my speakers as mid-fi, which makes your motives suspect. Both of you have called my speakers mid-fi to argue against my opinions on testing for the audibility of small differences. Technically, you employed the circumstantial ad hominem fallacy. But of course, your remarks about the quality of my equipment do nothing to prove that you can detect all the differences you claim to be able to detect.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,You seem to be getting quite defensive as this thread continues. If you continue in that vein we may need to stop conversing on this topic.
I don't believe I am making up opinions and motives for you. Instead I read what you say and write comments based on my understanding of what you said. You in turn are doing the exact same thing with me for I don't seem myself making up opinions and motives for you, yet that's your "impression" of what I am doing! Pat you claim "(I)take a bunch of texts and read things into them that are not there." When all I did was call you to the carpet for what you said. For Example:You can claim " I do not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components." but when you constantly remind others (as I pointed out) that:
1) I'm still quite pleased with my Paradigm Signature S2 speakers (which I notice have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components)
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25680.html2) It's true I think my main speakers are first class, along with some excellent speaker reviewers such as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25691.html3) Stereophile puts the SF Cremona Auditor in Class B Retricted LF, but that is apparently another reviewer's opinion, whereas JA reviewed the S2.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25813.html4) ...my speakers judged by Stereophile to be Class A Restricted LF! You must be going by price and age because you can have no other objective basis for such an assessment.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25698.htmlYour actions belie your denial. Your defense is Stereophile gives ratings and you point out at what level they put some products. Is like someone caught swimming in the deep end of a pool and claiming they cannot swim, they just walk in the water. "IF" you honestly don't accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components, why use it at all in regards to your speakers? You seem to want it both ways Pat. You want to deny you accept Stereophiles hype, yet you also want to mention Stereophile rates your Paradigms as Class A (Restricted LF), sorry but you cannot have it both ways. So to claim Nothing I have said logically requires me to accept Stereophile's rating system (which I don't), their descriptions of the ratings (which I don't), nor their reliability and then constantly mention how Stereophile rates your speaker as Class A (Restricted LF) seems a bit hypocritical to me. In fact you even stated: My use of the Stereophile Recommended Components ratings was simply to point out that some eminent reviewers regard them as very good speakers, by no means mid-fi. (which means you are attributing value to the reviews as you're using them to as "proof" that some eminent reviewers regard them as very good speakers.) Thus it's obviously not all hype as you would have us believe you believe. But then you attempted to distance yourself by stating: I don't have to accept the hype that Stereophile gives said ratings and I don't. Pat the reality is if you use a rating you are applying some significance to them, otherwise you wouldn't use them because they are worthless. But then again it seems to be just the way you are.
==================================================================
Pat you asked me: Where have I said I wanted you to trust my judgment about sound quality? Citations, please.I'll readily admit you never specifically said trust my judgement. However IMHO you implied you wanted to your judgement to be trusted when you said "Strange that you take HP's word for the sound quality."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25691.htmlIn fact even morricab saw it that way, for he responded to that remark with this: "Why is this strange, Pat? Let's see, take the advice of one of the most respected names in all Audioland or PatD with his strictly midfi setup? Yep, you are right I guess we should go with your assessmnt that its nothing special."
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25696.html
Now maybe you didn't mean to imply you wanted to be trusted but at least two of us believed that's what you meant.
=====================================================================
Now this really is funny Pat. Out of the blue you come to the mistaken conclusion that it apparently just bugs me that your speakers got a Class A Restricted LF rating in Stereophile and mine haven't. You seem to forget that #1) I did a side-by-side comparision in which the Aliante Pinafarina Ones easily bested your Paradigm Sig S2s and #2) None of my components (with the exception of my Audio Analoge Puccini) have been reviewed by Stereophile or Absolute Sound. So Pat if it really bothered me, like you're suggesting, I could have just as easily bought a different $8.3K integrated amp or $5K CD player that either Stereophile or Absolute Sound had reviewed. Instead, like always I trusted my own ears and judgement. I believe the fact that I didn't purchase components they reviewed proves that unlike you I honestly don't care about Stereophiles or Absolute Sound's ratings.
====================================================================
Finally Pat you state: But let's look at the context in which both of you referred to my speakers as mid-fi, which makes your motives suspect. Both of you have called my speakers mid-fi to argue against my opinions on testing for the audibility of small differences.Pat you seem to believe that morricab and I called your speakers mid-fi soley to argue against your opinions on testing for the audibility of small differences. I'm afraid that this is ONLY your opinion and a mistaken one at that! I called your speakers mid-fi (in the past--not in this thread) because that's what I believe them to be, period. I've compared them with the Aliantes which easily bested them all around! The differences were hardly small and very audible. I was trying to be nice but as you are wording your defense like this it needs to be correctly addressed. As I told you before if I accepted Stereophiles standards then yes, IMO the Aliantes should be Class B and your Paradigms would be Class C. As your Quad preamp/poweramp are hardly world class components, it's quite possible you wouldn't hear the amount of difference I heard between the Aliantes and the Paradigms on my system. Also considering you compared the Sonus Faber vs the Paradigms in different rooms with different equipment I'd call that subjective comparison highly suspect at best. If you're happy and believe it's valid, so be it, but I disagree with your opinion.
===================================================================
Pat I find it quite humorous that YOU now want to turn this topic to a different subject. For now as a final means of defense you're stating: But of course, (my) remarks about the quality of your equipment do nothing to prove that I can detect all the differences I claim to be able to detect!Look who is now trying to convert this into an Objective vs Subjective debate... YOU! Just because I disagree with your subjective assessment of the Sonus Fabers vs your Paradigms, you now want to twist this debate so that you can be correct at all costs. I guess when all esle fails one must run to what they know protects them best! But I won't fall into your cleverly laid trap. I don't do Objective vs Subjective debates anymore and you know that.
Nowhere were we discussing Objective vs Subjective listening in this entire thread. But now out of the blue you claim I must prove I can detect all the the differences I claim to be able to detect! However to that I say Pat your remarks about the quality of the SF equipment do nothing to prove that you can detect any of the differences, or similarities you claim to be able to detect when comparing the Sonus Fabers vs the Paradigms in different rooms on different components. Thus your subjective opinion is suspect at best.
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,It's quite obvious you're slipping back into your shuck & jive mode. For example of what I mean by that I see that you are now claiming in defense of your stating more than once that Stereophile rates your speakers as being Class A (Restricted LF) while also claiming you do not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components, that all you're doing is taking Stereophile's ratings & then pointing out at what level they put some products. However the reality is if you didn't believe the hype, you wouldn't be using Stereophile's ratings to provide proof of your speakers capabilities, because you'd know it's just hype!
The truth is at first I enjoyed debating with you Pat. Unfortunately just like every other time I've debated you intelligently & civilly, you start becoming defensive and then revert to your Objective vs Subjective mode of defense.
Pat as I told you before I won't allow you to lure me into another one of your Objective vs Subjective debates. Up until you started this Objective vs Subjective mode of defense we had been debating strictly our subjective opinions of what we heard. In your case it was of the Paradigm Signature S2 vs SF Cremona Auditor and in my case it was of the Paradigm Signature S2 vs Aliante Pinafarina Ones. Subjectively I found the Paradigm Signature S2's to be upper mid-fi at best and if one were to use Stereophile's rating system, I'd say the Paragigm Signature S2 was perhaps deserving of a Class C (Restricted LF) rating at best. That's precisely why I didn't buy a pair of them in mint used shape, even though the seller only wanted $600 for the pair!
Pat if you'll go back and re-read our posts in this thread it was YOU, not me and who started calling your components mid-fi. I was trying to be nice and not disparage your equipment. In fact the only reason your speakers were brought up in the first place was I because I was trying to inform you that Paradigm had upgraded their Signature series! I knew you liked your speakers and thought perhaps you'd be interesting in applying the new upgrades of beryllium-dome tweeters and cobalt infused aluminium mid/bass drivers to your speakers. As the cost increase was quite modest at only $200pr, I thought this was something worth looking into, as it would most likely improve their performance. To this suggestion of mine you replied: A) I'm still quite pleased with my Paradigm Signature S2 speakers and B) you mentioned how you noticed they have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components, for one of four times.
In an effort to show I wasn't attempting to disparage your speakers I responded that I thought this might be an upgrade worth your investigating. I also told you that I'd look into this upgrade as well "if" Aliante made such an upgrade available for the Pinafarina Ones only $200. Believe it or not I was trying to help you not hurt you Pat.
===================================================================
Then you tried provoking me by making comments about me as opposed to talking about the topic at hand with remarks like:1) LOL. It apparently just bugs you that my speakers got a Class A Restricted LF rating in Stereophile and yours haven't (If anyone should be ROTFLOL it's me. You know I told you previously I didn't buy a pair of mint, used Paradigm Sig S2 for $600 because the Aliantes so easily bested them. I also told you I could have purchased components on Stereophile's RC list but CHOSE not to! It apparently just bugs you that my speakers, so easily bested your Stereo-Review-Phile Class A Restricted LF rating speakers so easily! Perhaps JA should make a Class A+ Restricted LF just for the Aliantes?)
2) Nope! At this point I can read you like a book. (Nope! apparently you can't)
3) You keep on making up opinions and motives for me. I thought you were giving that up... (Pat when I read your posts I can only "see" what those words mean to me, just like you can only "see" what my words mean to you! Whereas you believe I am making up opinions and motives for you, I believe I'm stating the only logical conclusion that can be reached from your actions and words. "If" I'm wrong in my conclusions than it's no more wrong than your conclusion that I am making up opinions and motives for you!
====================================================================
You need to try sticking to the topic Pat, which was our subjective opinions. Just because you get caught doing something like, telling us that:1) You do not accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components.
2) Then mention at least 4X how Stereophile rates your speakers as Class A (Restricted LF)
A) I'm still quite pleased with my Paradigm Signature S2 speakers (which I notice have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components)
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25680.htmlB) LOL. It apparently just bugs you that my speakers got a Class A Restricted LF rating in Stereophile and yours haven't.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25863.htmlC) Stereophile puts the SF Cremona Auditor in Class B Retricted LF, but that is apparently another reviewer's opinion, whereas JA reviewed the S2.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25813.htmlD) ...my speakers judged by Stereophile to be Class A Restricted LF! You must be going by price and age because you can have no other objective basis for such an assessment.
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25698.html3) Then claim: Stereophile gives ratings. I point out at what level they put some products.
When the reality is your purpose is to defend your speakers with proof that morricab and I are mistaken in our belief that your speakers are mid-fi! For in your own words "...there are other very knowledgeable and experienced people who think they are very near the top." Thus you use the rating these "knowledgeable and experienced people" provide, even though you claim it's hype! So apparently hype is proof to you? What I find Funniest about all this, is when I've made mention of reviews in the past you attempted to berate them, but now you want these reviews to count because they are used to give your speakers Class A status and are written by "knowledgeable and experienced people!" Pat if anyone here has ever wanted to have his cake and eat it too, it's you. You're like a double-agent.
The truth is I'm sorry it upsets you so much that I don't find your speakers to be better than I do. To me they weren't worth $600pr, GOD knows what you paid for them. I can see you're starting to take this too personally, so I'm going to let this go, before you try to involve me in either a personal attack on each other or an Objective vs Subjective debate.
In any event, you don't know the slightest bit about me and if you believe you can read me like a book. I'd equate that remark of yours as being made from someone who read the War & Peace comic book and then claiming they knew the actual full length book in it's entirety. Trust me you don't know me at all...
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
yet you compare it to both your speakers and my speakers! I at least did hear the SF Cremona Auditor and the Paradigm Signature S2 in similar acoustic circumstances. I have been wise enough not to compare your speakers with anything since I haven't heard your Aliante speakers.I seem really to get under your skin--but then, so do a lot of other people. Sounds like a personal problem to me. You have so many buttons it's almost impossible not to push some of them.
As for the circumstantial ad hominem argument you make and continue to make, you started calling my system mid-fi back in September for the precise purpose trying to discredit my opinions on audio.
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=prophead&m=22735
In other words, you were using a circumstantial ad hominem argument, a recognized logical fallacy. You continue to do so.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I see your now back to the ad hominem defense Pat. GOD it just eats at you that I find your speakers to be mid-fi doesn't it? Please cite where I have directly stated I've heard or compared the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor to ANY other speaker! You can't because I haven't. What I specifically told you Pat was "I have not yet heard the SF Cremona Auditor, however I was told by a person visiting my home and by the person who sold me the Aliantes, the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar. If that's true and I don't know if it is then I have a good idea of what the Sonus Fabers sound like.
As you well know the ONLY direct comparison I made was of the Aliantes Pinafarina Ones vs the Paradigm Signature S2s side-by-side in the same room on the same system, that's all I've ever told you I did Pat. I also mentioned when you asked me this question: I'm wondering how you can assess the SF Cremona Auditor if you haven't heard them? That I had been told the Aliantes sound very much like the SF Cremona Auditor. IIRC I also mentioned it was the man who sold me the Aliantes who told me that. So yes I trusted another person's judgement. Why would I do that? Well for a couple of reasons:
1) The man who sold me the Aliantes compared them directly to the SF Cremona Auditor, in the same room, using all the same components. After doing that he actually prefered the Aliantes Pinafarina Ones at that price point, so he bought them. Does that mean I'd agree 100% with his opinion? I don't know, like you said I haven't personally heard SF Cremona Auditor.
2) The sonic characteristics he ascribed to the Aliantes is basically what I hear as well. So as we appear to "hear" the same sonic characteristics in the Aliantes, I believe the chances are I'd agree with his assessment of the SF Cremona Auditor as well.
3) Then I had to weigh his opinion against yours, a person, who heard different things than I did when I compared the Paradigm Sig S2 to the Aliante Pinafarina One. A person who also doesn't believe the same things I do about audio components and wires etc.
So I decide in that case to err on the side of caution and agree with the person who hears what I hear and believes what I believe. Now Pat please cite for me where I've stated that I've compared the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor directly with either the Aliante Pinafarina Ones or your Paradigm Signature S2's, if you can. But I know you can't because I didn't.
=====================================================================
I appears what really gets your goat Pat is that in a direct comparison of my Aliante Pinafarina Ones vs your Paradigm Signature S2's, I found the S2s to be sadly lacking and not worth even the $600pr asking price used. Now THAT'S definitely what I'd call a personal problem. Why you'd even care what I think of your speakers, especially if you honestly believe what you claim "It's true I think my main speakers are first class..." is completely beyond me. But Pat you also have so many buttons it's almost impossible not to push some of them, even when I'm being civil and truthful. I'm sorry about that, I really am. As I've told you at least 3x now, I'm not trying to hurt you, but rather I wanted to help you. That's why I mentioned the possible upgrade being available for your speakers. If you're happy with them, that's wonderful for you! Now there's a chance you can further improve apon the sound you like so much.
==================================================================
I'm more than a bit surprised that in defense of your choice of this speaker of which you think so highly of and I consider to be mid-fi, you want to start bring up comments I made about your system back in September. As you well know I'm trying to address people differently now, so why you'd want to dredge up the past is beyond me. Unfortunately even in doing so you mistakenly believe it was for the precise purpose trying to discredit your opinions on audio. Pat when will you realize that ones opinions cannot be discredited because they are only opinions. So there's no right or wrong to them, thus how can they be discredited?However if and when one starts to state that they believe their speakers are first class like you did here. "It's true I think my main speakers are first class..." and then that person uses an appeal to authority by adding that "...some excellent speaker reviewers such as John Atkinson, Andrew Marshall, and Doug Schneider." agrees with their assessment as if that provides "proof" that their opinion is correct. Like you did here:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/25691.html
Then that's a bit different. The comment now becomes more than just your opinion. Because now you're using Stereophiles placement of your speakers in Class A (Restricted LF) as a defense of your belief. Now it's being stated as more than just an opinion, but now it's being stated more like a fact of which you can verify is true by providing proof via the words of some "knowledgeable and experienced people!" as you called them. But even if it remains solely your opinion it's one I disagree with 100% after doing a direct comparison of the Aliantes Pinafarina Ones vs the Paradigm Signature S2s side-by-side in the same room on the same system.
So Pat if anyone here is making an ad hominem argument, it's you and your appeal to authority or argumentum ad verecundiam, in the defense of your opinion. You're also mistaken when you claim I've done anything more than come to my conclusion that the Paradigm Signature S2s are mid-fi speakers based on a direct comparison to Aliantes Pinafarina Ones. If this opinion of mine bothers you so much, why not let it go? After doing my direct comparison, I'm not about to change my mind about the Paradigm Signature S2.
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
You even claimed that if the SF Cremona Auditor, which you haven't heard, was in Class B, then my Paradigm Signature S2 speakers would be in Class C.Very bad form for a subjectivist.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,Get a firm grip on the reality that I find your Paradigm Sig S2's to be mid-fi speakers, not even worth $600 pr in mint used shape. Once you get a firm grip on that concept, let it go, because what my opinion of your speakers is shouldn't matter to you at all!
Pat I've noticed you're reverting back to typical behaviour i.e. ignoring everything I say in my posts and only discussing addressing the points you raise and want addressed. Now as far as you attempting to make my placing the SF Cremona Auditor, which I haven't heard, in Class B & your Paradigm Signature S2 speakers, which I did hear, in Class C appear as some sort of bad form of subjectivism, I'd say your reading comprehension skills seem to be diminishing. As I've clearly explained how and why I did that. Your acting as if I haven't is an obvious faux pas on your part.
I quite plainly told you more than once I have not heard the SF Cremona Auditor. I also told you, I was told by a person visiting my home and then by the person who sold me the Aliantes, the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar. If that's true and I don't know if it is, then I have a good idea of what the Sonus Fabers sound like.
Pat can you follow this so far? Is not please re-read it, if you can continue on. Now taking that one step further if I were to use Stereophile's rating system I'd place my Aliante Pinafarina Ones in Class B. So it just follows that if the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar, I'd also place them in Class B as well. I've quite plainly & clearly stated this placement in Class B of the SF Cremona Auditor is based soley on the assumption that if the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones sound more alike than dissimilar, then I'd have a good idea of what the Sonus Fabers sound like!
Could that be a mistaken opinion on my part? YES! But as it based on info from others who've heard both the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones speakers and felt they were quite similar and NOT apon my having personally having heard the SF Cremona Auditor. It's based apon comments I've read about the SF Cremona Auditor and it's based apon knowing which of those traits the Aliantes share and lastly it's based apon having owned the Aliantes for over 4 years now. So yes I feel ok having made that placement, while candidly admitting how I came to the conclusion.
How many times do you need to be told that? Geesh Pat my opinion of your speakers appears to be really disturbing you. Let it go, let it go, let it go...
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
You explanations of how you evaluated the SF Cremona Auditor simply don't hold water. You haven't heard them but only know two people who have.It seems that you, a subjectivist, are willing to take all sorts of people's word the sound quality of equipment (i.e., Harry Pearson, visitors, dealers), whereas I, whom you consider to be an objectivist, do not, but rely on my own listening.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,Unlike you it doesn't bother me if you approve or disaprove of my beliefs. Additionally I don't have to justify my opinions. I'm actually a bit surprised that you feel anyone would have to justify their opinions on audio. I've never claimed this opinion was an indisputable fact, did I? So why do you feel I have to justify my opinion? I know I don't feel that way! I do however like to explain how I've reached my opinions. Others can than read what I've written and give my opinion as little or as much consideration as they choose to.
I believe the SF Cremona Auditor should be a Class B (Restricted LF) "if" one is using Stereophiles rating system. I then explained clearly & intelligently how that I reached that conclusion when I've never actually heard the SF Cremona Auditor speaker!
1) Based on info from others whose ears I trust, unlike yours who ears I don't trust. (These people I trust heard both the SF Cremona Auditor & the Aliante Pinafarina Ones speakers and felt they were quite similar.)
2) Based apon comments I've read about the SF Cremona Auditor. (These comments were from reviews, comments posted by SF Cremona Auditor owners etc.)
3) Based apon my knowing which traits the Aliantes Pinafarina One & SF Cremona Auditor both share. (Having owned the Aliantes for over 4 years now, I can easily determine what traits they share with the SF Cremona Auditor based on 1 & 2 above.)
So yes I feel ok having reached my opinion of the SF Cremona Auditor although I haven't personally heard it. But I quite candidly admit how I came to the conclusion. But for some strange reason that really bothers you Pat. I'm so sorry Pat. I didn't realize you allow my opinions to have such an dramatic impact on you. Remember what I've told you before Pat? It's just my opinion so if you don't agree with it let it go, let it go, let it go... You'll be a lot happier that way.
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
Actually, I don't dispute the rating you give of the SF Cremona Auditor as I think it is a very fine speaker. I would rate it with my own, which Stereophile puts in Class Restricted LF. Buts you evaluate it without having heard it, based on hearsay. It's the same as if you wrote a review without having heard the product, or reviewed a theatre performance you did not attend.I have to laugh when you talk about "my knowing which traits the Aliantes Pinafarina One & SF Cremona Auditor both share." You have never heard the SF Cremona Auditor and have never said anything intelligible about its "traits." It's hilarious. You really don't know anything about its sonic traits. It's like the fundamentalists who complain about movies and art they've never seen.
As I have said before, you are entitled to like whatever speakers you want. Your taste in speakers is evidently different from mine. I don't care whether you like my speakers or not, but the only reason you have ever brought them up was to bash my opinions in audio and I simply point out your bad logic, something you don't want to improve. IOW, you think that my audio opinions are no good because you don't like my equipment, which is a clear non sequitur and employs a type of the ad hominem fallacy known as circumstantial.
Now, it's the same fallacy when you reject my audio evaluations because you don't like my audio philosophy, which you term "objectivist," even though I don't accept Ayn Rand's philosophy. Now, I don't reject people's opinions on the sound of speakers because they happen to be subjectivists, or democrats, or republicans, or . . .
So, all round, I am clearly a better subjectivist than you are because I listen to speakers before giving others an opinion on how they sound, whereas you often rely on hearsay.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I've explained numerous times why I felt comforatble doing what I did. You don't agree, so be it. Now let it go...
Thetubeguy1954
That says it all.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
If a man can look at himself in the mirror and be comforatble with who he sees and what that person has done, yes it's OK! You see the reality is I don't have to account to you or anyone else Pat. So as long as I'm comfortable with what I've done. Then like you said Hey, it's OK!Thetubeguy1954
PS Pat: Like the Oracle said to Neo "Gee I'd have thought you'd have fiqured that out by now."
.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,It's a known fact that most children hear better than adults do. Perhaps this childs reaction to hearing your beloved Paradigm Signature S2s is a good example of what they're really good for? Click on the link and read for yourself...
Funny part is this owner, like you has an overly high opinion of these speakers (perhaps he's never heard better?) He wants $575 for a very damaged pair of Paradigm Signature S2s.
The man who was trying to sell me his mint used pair of The Paradigm Signature S2s for $600 had a more realistic idea of their actual worth. He told me: "The Paradigm Signature S2s actually sound really good, until you put them side by side with some of the better monitors like your (my) Aliantes, Talons or the Sonus Fabers. Then their faults are painfully obvious and unfortunately all you ever seem to hear from that point on."
Hey a used pair of Aliante Pinafarina Ones are selling for $2799 on Audiogon as we speak!
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1170185210:^)
Thetubeguy1954
Your taste in speakers is of little interest to me. If you like tube amplifiers, that's fine with me. If you want to waste your money on expensive interconnects and speaker cables, that's fine with me, too.You forget, I used to own Quad ESL-63s.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I could just as easily state that you don't discuss logically also! I loved debating in my youth, but people don't debate here. One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them. However when I do that with you you get upset.
Like you I find your taste in speakers is of little interest to me. If you like solid state amplifiers, that's fine with me. If you want to believe it's a waste of money buying expensive interconnects and speaker cables, that's fine with me, too.
As far as you having owned Quad ESL-63s in the past. I'm not sure if you ever told me that or not. In any event I didn't remember or know that. However the fact that you went from Quad ESL-63's to Paradigm Signature S2s says enough to me!
I don't want to argue with you Pat. I've told you a few times now to LET IT GO, but it appears you'd prefer to keep it going...
Thetubeguy1954
"One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them."Ah yes! Instead of talking about the subject matter, attacking the person or his circumstances rather than talking about audio. Quoting out of context and changing the meaning. But then I already knew that. Nice to see you admit it--although you probably hadn't realized you did.
"However the fact that you went from Quad ESL-63's to Paradigm Signature S2s says enough to me!"
Again illustrating how little you know room effects.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,In response to my statement: "One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them." You replied: Ah yes! Instead of talking about the subject matter, attacking the person or his circumstances rather than talking about audio. Quoting out of context and changing the meaning. But then I already knew that. Nice to see you admit it--although you probably hadn't realized you did.
Which quite obviously shows me you aren't really reading my posts! If you had you'd see how sadly mistaken this reply of yours is. I use a person's own words against them to talk about the subject matter. Unfortunately as is often the case, when a person's own words are used to defend a POV that's in disagreement with their own belief system they feel attacked, like they're being quoting out of context or that quoting them somehow changes the meaning of what they've said, like you apparently do.
This is precisely what happened when I quoted directly word for word your comments about your speakers in Inmate's Systems, which I've noticed you've since changed! You even attacked what I said as being false UNTIL you realized I was quoting you. That's why I said, "One of the best technics in debating is to use a person's own words against them." People will often say conflicting statements, or criticise their own words UNTIL they realize it is their own words. Then like you did here they'll cry in defense I'm being quoted out of context and you're changing the meaning of what I said. But that's NOT what I've done! In fact I'll often give a link to the person's complete post so their words can be read in context. So no Pat, I'm not admitting to anything like you've said I have. Sorry but you are sadly mistaken.
Also Pat you need to realize as opinions are involved many times when discussing audio and differing POVs. The person and their circumstances are as much involved because the person and their circumstances effects their opinions. Thus it's as germane to the discussion as is the actual audio topic. If we were discussing using only facts and no opinions, I might in that case agree with your belief that the person and their circumstances is not germane to the topic being discussed.
I find your reply: Again illustrating how little you know room effects. to my statement of: "However the fact that you went from Quad ESL-63's to Paradigm Signature S2s says enough to me!" to be a perfect example of a Circumstantial Ad Hominem which I'm sure you know is "Circumstantial: A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opponent is offered as evidence against the opponent's position."
Pat when I was talking about replacing Quad ESL-63's with the Paradigm Signature S2s I was not speaking of room interactions in any way. I was speaking about exchanging Quad ESL-63's which many consider to be a world-class speaker for Paradigm Signature S2s which outside of Stereophile, many consider to be upper mid-fi or lower hi-fi at best. My opinion on that matter in no way reflects on what I know about speaker/room interactions. Thus is the reason your statement is a Circumstantial Ad Hominem.
Now Pat when I consider that you've made that speaker exchange, along with your opinions of wires and solid state audio components, it says enough to me!
Keep enjoying the music -- Thetubeguy1954
It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows. - Epictetus
You seem to consistently fail to realize that it doesn't matter to the subject matter whether an ad hominem is true or not."I use a person's own words against them to talk about the subject matter."
Do you even realize how silly that statement is? You just said "against them" and then propose this is somehow to talk about "the subject matter." You have again illustrated what I said.
Then, you go on again against me, rather than saying something about audio:
"I was speaking about exchanging Quad ESL-63's which many consider to be a world-class speaker for Paradigm Signature S2s which outside of Stereophile, many consider to be upper mid-fi or lower hi-fi at best."
So? Incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial. What my system is or whether I have a system at all doesn't prove anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are. And since that's the sole reason you have brought up your opinions of my system (and morricab, who is much nicer than you, also uses this invalid argument), it really is a circumstantial ad hominem--not that you seem to be above using straight ad hominems, which morricab tends to avoid, I think.
One could just as easily say that "many" didn't like the Quad ESL-63 so well and that "many" think the Paradigm Signature speakers are top drawer superb--including the folks at Soundstage and AIG, who, like Stereophile, also do fairly extensive measurements. It might interest you to know that the late Richard C. Heyser did his usual set of measurements and developed some special ones for the Quad ESL-63, and was not all that impressed with them overall, including in his listening. I happen to like them a lot. It's bad enough to use an ad hominem, and even worse when it's false!
I am again wondering whether you have actually heard the Quad ESL-63 (you don't say you have) or are just relying on third party reports.
"Now Pat when I consider that you've made that speaker exchange, along with your opinions of wires and solid state audio components, it says enough to me!"
You continue to reiterate that you are arguing against a person rather than his position, and that you use ad hominems instead of supporting your own position and proving that you can hear what you claim you can. In other words, you argue against the person rather than dealing with audio.
My remark about you not knowing much about room acoustics was to show that you actually have no idea why I changed from the Quads to forward radiating speakers. It's an inference which might be incorrect (though I doubt it), but not a circumstantial ad hominem.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,I'm discovering it's impossible to hold both an intelligent and civil debate with you. While I can see you're intelligent you're doing everything you can to prevent me from remaining civil with you. For you continue to choose to make personal jabs at me such as morricab, who is much nicer than you or or your remark about me not knowing much about room acoustics. Neither of these comments are germane to our discussion.
From the beginning I told you Pat this was all just opinions, don't take it personal, let it go, let it go, let it go but you couldn't and wouldn't. It appeared to just eat at you that I didn't hold your speakers in high esteem. Or perhaps it bothered you that even at $600 for a mint used pair I turned my nose at them? You started to change in tone from the moment I said: "On another note I read something that might be of interest to you. Paradigm has upgraded their Signature series! The new models are getting beryllium-dome tweeters and cobalt infused aluminium mid/bass drivers. The cost increase is quite modest on the S8 the price changed only $200pr from $6500 to $6700. This might be an upgrade worth looking into "if" you're interested." You replied by stating you were still quite pleased with your Paradigm Signature S2 speakers which is a good thing. But the defensiveness showed up when you mentioning you noticed they have attained Class A Restricted LF status in Stereophile's Recommended Components and again when you said we are not currently in the market for new main speakers. Even though I specifically said UPGRADE not REPLACE, your walls came up and the tone of thread changed from that point on.
In any event even when I told you Pat it's only my opinions let it go, let it go, let it go you constantly had to have the last thing to say. Once you get like that Pat you revert back to blaming me for using ad hominems and then you start to distort the truth ever so slightly like when you claim: "What my system is or whether I have a system at all doesn't prove anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are." You make this statement as if I've stated differently. Where did this assumption come from Pat? As usual you constantly read way deeper for hidden meanings in what I've said. Please cite where I said that what your system is or whether you have a system at all proves anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are! You cannot because I did not!
As we continue reading this last response of yours you become a mindreader and start divining the reasons I say what I do! For Pat you claim: "And since that's the sole reason you have brought up your opinions of my system." This is just blatantly false Pat. First your assumption that I believe what your system is or whether you have a system at all proves anything either way about the audibility of wires, audible differences among amps, or how good various products are is completely false and something you made up. So your conclusion that it's the sole reason I have brought up my opinions of your system is equally false. It's just one more example of you infering and implying things I've never said or meant Pat! Yet nowhere in this thread was I the one who started mentioning any opinion about your system as a whole. Fact is if you go back and re-read the entire thread you'll see Pat it was you and not me and who started calling your components mid-fi. Your a clever littele trickster Pat. I personally don't care if you use Radio Shack wires, CD Player, speakers, amps etc. In fact I'm surprised you don't considering your opinions on the the audibility of wires and the audible differences among amps.
I refuse to take this as personally as you are and won't resort to your methods of personal attacks (although I have in the past) such as your comments on morricab being nicer than me or your remark about me not knowing much about room acoustics. You have no idea what I do or don't know and you never ask, you always prefer to just infer & imply incorrectly.
However it is my opinion that we need to end this for a myriad of reasons:
1) Our POVs on the audibility of wires are completely opposite and we'll never come to an agreement so what's the purpose in a continued debate on this topic?
2) Our POVs on the audiblility differences among amps are opposite and we'll never come to an agreement so what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic either?3) Your trading Quads ESL-63 for Paradigms Signature S2 mini-monitors isn't what I'd call a logical move or upgrade. Of course you completely disagree with my opinion so once again and we'll never come to an agreement so what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic?
4) Pat if you honestly believe that the Paradigm Sig S2 belongs in Class A (Restricted LF) which Stereophile defines "The best attainable sound for a component of it's kind, almost without practical considerations; "the least musical compromise. A Class A system is one for which you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing." Then I believe you really do need to get out a lot more to: 1)listen to a lot of live unamplified music and 2) to audition some honest contenders for a speaker that might possibly be considered capable of musical presentation wherein you don't have to make a leap of faith to believe you are hearing the real thing. Your defense is that even though you boast about Stereophile's Class A status of your speaker over four times in this thread alone that doesn't mean you accept the hype that goes with Stereophile's descriptions of their ratings for Recommended Components. Furthermore you state that your mentioning 4X about Stereophile's ratings of your speakers doesn't logically requires you to accept Stereophile's rating system (which you claim don't while constantly mentioning your speakers Stereophile Class A rating), their descriptions of the ratings (which you don't while constantly mentioning your speakers Stereophile Class A rating), nor their reliability is just another example of your being an Audio Politician Pat, i.e. saying one thing while meaning another. Thus we'll never come to an agreement about this so what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic?
I see no intelligent reason for continuing this with you Pat. So go ahead and make one last response so you'll have the last word, I don't care. It's quite obvious that civility and intelligently debating differing POV is wasted apon you.
Thetubeguy1954
Where did I ever say that changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade? Come on now, show me where!! So I DEFY you to do so!!! As I have said (and proved), you constantly make up opinions for me. Q.E.D.N.B. You totally misunderstand what an ad hominem attack is. It's not just saying something unpleasant about you. I can't help it if you don't act as nice as morricab does. That's just too bad, but I don't attack your opinions based on that. But that's what you do: you attack my opinions based on nothing relevant: whether you like my speakers is irrelevant to whether they are true, whether you like my system or even whether I have a system is irrelevant to whether they are true. So you DO use ad hominem attacks, and you attack my system and even attack me for precisely that reason: you want to discredit my opinions.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat,No matter what you say after this I'll NOT respond because your back to your dirty little tricks.
I NEVER said you claimed that changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade! Learn to read Pat! What I specifically said word-for-word was: 3) Your trading Quads ESL-63 for Paradigms Signature S2 mini-monitors isn't what I'd Did you see that Pat? I used the word I'd, thus it's my opinion, I didn't say what you'd hence it's not something you said, a logical move or upgrade.
Now as I know you'd completely disagree with my opinion once again and we'll never come to an agreement, what's the purpose in a continued debate on the topic? There is none!
Yet you make up something I didn't say i.e. (You) sa(id) that changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade? And then you have the nerve to challenge me to show you where I said the statement you completely made up in Pat's audio fantasy land!! So now I DEFY you Pat to show where I said that was your opinion and not mine! As I have said and once again proved, you constantly make up things I've supposedly said that just aren't true. I'm trying to avoid calling you a liar again but you're getting pretty close to it with this new fantasy statement Pat.
Just like I've stated before in the link you provided, Pat this post you've just made has got to be another one of the most off-base, illogical responses I've ever seen on AA. Once again you 're attributing things to me I didn't say, mean or believe. I've never said that you stated changing to the Paradigm Signature S2 was an upgrade, that thought ONLY exists in your head and only in Pat's weird audio world. What I said was: trading Quads ESL-63 for Paradigms Signature S2 mini-monitors isn't what I'd call a logical move or upgrade.
Just go on and continue to play your childish games Pat. Continue to feel like you know the truth, but rest assured you don't. I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to and at least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do. Because yes IMO your system isn't as capable as many others I've heard. I'm not claiming it's crap, it's just there's much better out there.
With that this discussion is over, no matter how many more fantasy comments you want to attribute to me that's aren't true, I'll not waste one more second discussing with a person who makes up at will comments I haven't said and then demands I show him proof of things I didn't say in the first place. Pat you need help, it obvious you are taking this way to personally and I don't wish to remain involved in this matter any longer...
Bye, Bye Pat. Thetubeguy1954
That's what it meant in context, you try to rip your own statements out of their context when challenged how silly they are. Are you admitting that you were making comments which were irrelevant to the discussion?And since you have no idea of the reasons for the change from electrostatics to forward radiating speakers, it is really silly of you to put forward an opinion as to whether it was a "logical" change. You have utterly no basis for it and seemingly cannot imagine why anyone would do so.
Your earlier remarks on a supposed upgrade of the Paradigm Signature S2 indicated you thought that I could have my speakers upgraded to a newer version for around $200. I've never known Paradigm to do that. You have absolutely no basis for this statement and as usual, you provided no link. I have simply pointed out that it was probably a little more complicated than changing the drivers and that there is no evidence that Paradigm is offering upgrades to the first model and that one would probably have to purchase the new model to get it You are imagining a difference in tone based on that. But you seem to regard almost anything that proves you wrong as a change in tone.BTW, have you heard the Quad ESL-63, or are you simply relying on its reputation?
TG54
"I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to and at least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do. Because yes IMO your system isn't as capable as many others I've heard. I'm not claiming it's crap, it's just there's much better out there."There we go again, with two main fallacies this time. The first is the circumstantial ad hominem, to try to counter my audio philosophy by making remarks about the quality of my system. But, no matter how you cut it, it's a fallacious argument, and your continued iterations. Such remarks about me do nothing to prove you can hear what you claim you do.
Second, you personalize, which is probably the more vicious fallacy. I and some others have pointed out that apparently NO ONE has proved they can hear the differences between wires suitable for high fidelity use in normal applications. For example, Richard has been asking for such proof on the net since 1996, but so far it hasn't been forthcoming and of course, you have provided none, either, only a fatuous promise you would IF you did a controlled DBT. My dealer tried to use the same argument, that he's sure he *would* be able to hear the difference between interconnects and speaker wires in a DBT. Totally worthless statement as data! All that is required is to prove you or anyone can hear such differences, whether or not we can hear it or not.You try to personalize to me, and try to maintain I am trying to impose my limitations on everyone else--you're hardly the first to come up with such silliness and you won't be the last. But it is a misrepresentation and one which I believe is quite deliberate.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
"Strange that you take HP's word for the sound quality."Why is this strange, Pat?
Let's see, take the advice of one of the most respected names in all Audioland or PatD with his strictly midfi setup? Yep, you are right I guess we should go with your assessmnt that its nothing special.
I have heard all the 47labs gear from the relatively cheap Shigaraki to the top line transport and DAC. Their cd products at least are extremely good. The amps...I find them a bit dry sounding.
I heard the 47 Labs electronics in a store owned by a friend of mine, and the best speakers he had on hand were the Paradigm Reference Series Studio 40s. Now, the Studio 40 measures quite well, throws a nice, stable image, but shows some mild colorations on massed strings and other things. It's not my cup of tea, but its bigger brothers, the Studio 60 and Studio 100 have been placed in Class B in Stereophile's Recommended Components.Your reaction to my assessment that I didn't notice anything special about the sound of the 47 Labs electronics is rather strange. It's simply a subjective report such as you, other subjective reviewers, and all sorts of audiophiles and music lovers provide on this and other sites, which you don't complain about. The sound was quite good, actually, except that Studio 40s aren't quite my cup of tea. I didn't notice anything to distinguish it from other CDPs--but then I guess I didn't have any CDs with pre-emphasis! Now, if HP or you or someone else were to show they could detect the difference in a controlled DBT, that would be fine--and JA has provided data to indicate likely reasons for such audible differences, and they haven't got anything to do with being more accurate!
Ah yes, the unsupported remarks about my "strictly midfi setup," with my speakers judged by Stereophile to be Class A Restricted LF! You must be going by price and age because you can have no other objective basis for such an assessment.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
And you get 20 hz out of 'em? What does Stereophile consider full range???As for your subjective opinion of the sound, that's fine - I haven't heard the 47 Labs - and I believe you. Your point about not simply taking a reviewers word is personally brough out by both my respect for Art Dudley's ears on the one hand and on the other hand his embrace of Lowther-based horn loaded loudspeakers which I find to be the most horribly colored and offensive "high end" loudspeakers on the planet. Now do I believe Art loves them? Sure I do, just as I believe HP loves the 47 Labs and just as I believe they did nothing for you. In my case, taking people at the word doesn't mean I agree with them. It only means I believe they hear what they report.
My sytem does go down to 20 Hz and below but then I have a subwoofer.As for the rest of your post, I think I agree with most of it. People do have different subjective reactions to various pieces of equipment, but that doesn't mean they can actually identify any sonic differences in the equipment. Maybe they can and maybe they can't. Now, Harry Pearson may love the 47 Labs DAC but it remains to be proven whether he can actually hear the difference between it an numerous others. And if he can, JA's measurement may indicate why. He thinks some of the anomalies in its performance may be audible.
Most speakers could be differentiated in a controlled DBT, but even so, knowing what speaker it is tends to have a greater impact on evaluations than the actual sound. Usually, the first thing I read through in Stereophile's speaker reports are the measurements--and I can say the same of speaker reports in Sound & Vision, Soundstage, and Audio Ideas Guide [unfortunately, they all have different ideas as to how to measure and display the results!]. Of course, I might on occasion be looking up something else, such as the price or dimensions, but generally, the first thing I seek are the measurements and the commentary thereon. Certainly, Art Dudley seems to have different tastes in speakers than I do.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
> My sytem does go down to 20 Hz and below but then I have a subwoofer. <I missed the subwoofer fact... and I don't read Stereophile.
> Most speakers could be differentiated in a controlled DBT, but even so, knowing what speaker it is tends to have a greater impact on evaluations than the actual sound. <
The speakers he uses would be easy to pick out from just about anything else. His love of these types of speakers really defines the concept of subjectivism for me. When people claim to be after the same thing in building an audio system and the sounds from different speakers are so diverse, it certainly helps the belief that people hear things differently. And that's why it's NOT hard for me to believe that people hear differences in components that science says they shouldn't. A stretch perhaps... but go listen to some Lowther based speaker systems. If you like your Paradigms (and I thought they sounded good during the brief time I heard them), it might make you wonder as it did me.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
