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In Reply to: You make no effort to understand what's being said. posted by Pat D on August 24, 2006 at 12:05:34:
Pat D, I asked you to please explain to me once and for all in a clear & precise manner what your beliefs on wires are! You act as if you're being clear in your responses when you are NOT being clear at all and IMHO you are being deliberately vague!You claim "(I) neglect the term "under some circumstances" for some reason. But I don't neglect that at all. In fact I specifically asked you "Do you or do you not believe that wires effect the sound of a system audibly? If they do how, why and when do they?"
Pat did you notice "...If they do how, why and when do they?" That's my attempt to get you to explain what "under some circumstances" are in a clear and precise manner, so I can understand what you mean and believe!
If these "under some circumstances" you speak of are not what we audiophiles/music lovers encounter at home in our systems then your just making another vain attempt at playing audio politician again. So once and for all state what your beliefs are on wires in a clear and precise manner, or are you afraid to let us know what you really believe?
Follow Ups:
You've made no attempt to find out "under what circumstances." It's just been black and white, all or nothing with you. I know some circumstances not all of them.Find some cables that are outside the matching criteria in the link below (established by DBTs) or some other good reasons and I will believe you. Otherwise, I want a DBT. I don't know how I can be clearer than that.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D, you're still playing games. You're claim I've made no attempt to find out "under what circumstances" is. As you well know I believe wires "sound" different when installed in different audio systems. So why would I need to know what "under what circumstances" means to anyone but YOU? Only YOU can answer that question.So how did you reply to my question? You said; "I know some circumstances not all of them." As I now understand you, YOU believe under some circumstances wires can sound different, but you only know what some of those "under what circumstances" are, correct? Ok, that's fair enough!
I believe from statements you've made in the past such as; "No, it's proven that there are audible differences between some speaker cables under some circumstances" and "THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE PROBABLY NOT THINGS YOU WOULD WANT FOR SERIOUS LISTENING AND WEREN'T WITH 10 foot SPEAKER CABLES." (emphasis by thetubeguy)that it's quite clear you want to use obscure some example of wire use that most likely would NEVER be encountered in a typical audiophile/music lovers use of wire, in defense of your postion that you never said ALL wires! When you stated "Now where did I say that wire never makes any difference or that it cannot make a difference?" (Taken from this post of yours http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/21839.html )
This supports my previous statements that your real postion on wires is, that differences between 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are ordinarily audible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits, are inaudible.
That could be re-said as 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of wires are not audibly different "IF" it's a 3 foot interconnect at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge & the equipment is functioning correctly! That is essentially ALL typical audio wires. Yet when I say "ALL" you act like an audio politician, get all insulted, act like I don't understand what I'm speaking about and cry out "Now where did I say that wire never makes any difference or that it cannot make a difference?"
Your true beliefs were displayed when you said, "Strange that even staunch believers can't prove they hear differences between cables in sensible set ups." (Taken from this post of yours http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=prophead&n=21176&highlight=thetubeguy1954&r=&session= ) Your true beliefs are displayed when you demand Subjectivists PROVE they hear differences in wires. Your true beliefs are displayed when you say like you did above; "Find some cables that are outside the matching criteria in the link below (established by DBTs) or some other good reasons and I will believe you. Otherwise, I want a DBT."
Your true beliefs are when wires are used as they'd be encountered in a typical audiophile/music lovers use of wire, in their audio system, i.e. 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are inaudible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits, and that's essentially ALL wires and I don't know how I can be clearer than that!
Pat you are still playing games. You know when we are discussing we are discussing audio as the typical audiophile/music lover encounters it! Otherwise next time when we're comparing tubed amps to soildtstate amps, I'll use some cheap transitor radio as my example of a solidstate amp and it's typical specs and behaviors. That's basically what you did above with your wire example.
"Not proven" is NOT equivalent to "can't happen."
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat that has got to be the most off-base, illogical response to a post I've ever seen on AA. First and foremost how you can call that an intelligent response to the post a wrote, could ONLY exist in your mind.You attribute things to me I don't say, mean or believe. I've never said that "not proven" is the equivalent to "can't happen." that thought ONLY exists in your head and only in Pat's weird audio world.
Truth be told you've NEVER clearly & precisely ever explained what YOU really believe about wires. Instead you always point to others articles, papers and posts! Can't you articulate your beliefs? If not then perhaps you don't even really know what you do believe or maybe you're afraid to tell us what you really believe.
Play your childish games Pat. Continue to feel like you know the truth, but rest assured you don't. I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to today in Inmates Systems. At least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do.
That's your main silliness. What difference does it make what I "believer" or whether or not I "believe?" Answer: it's irrelevant. My beliefs make no difference, it's evidence that counts.What I do point out is that after some decades, people like you have failed to show that they can hear the differences between interconnects at line level or speaker wires. You claim you can do so. I do not deny that you can but I do not accept it, either. Why? No evidence you can. You have supplied neither measured data indicating differences above known JNDs nor have you supplied data from DBTs.
Some of those you might term "objectivists" (though Objectivism is the name for the philosophy of Ayn Rand) have tried to find some of the conditions under which speaker cables make an audible difference--the usual things are level differences and FR differences. Jneutron thinks some frequency related time differences betwen cables might be audible but has provided no direct evidence as yet--but then he is not making a claim as to audibility.
tubeguy:
"I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to today in Inmates Systems. At least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do."I should point out that you are making a circumstantial ad hominem by bashing my system, which is probably quieter than yours, I would guess. But then I am hardly surprised as you often resort to ad hominem. Why do you have a need to do that?
I suggest you get a subwoofer if you want bass below 35 Hz.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat PLEASE tell me you're being sarcastic with this comment "What difference does it make what I "believer" or whether or not I "believe?" Answer: it's irrelevant. My beliefs make no difference, it's evidence that counts.If I am discussing/debating anything with YOU that your beliefs on that subject absolutely do matter as they influence everything you say!
But why am I surprised? For you continue from one bit of silliness to another. For now you proclaim: "What I do point out is that after some decades, people like you have failed to show that they can hear the differences between interconnects at line level or speaker wires." That's an outright lie Pat, you know John Atkinson and others have proven this very thing.
Next Pat you say "You claim you can do so." And that's true I can!
But in typical Pat D audio politcian manner you state; "I do not deny that you can but I do not accept it, either. Why? No evidence you can." Come to FLA and let me provide you evidence Pat!
I do however love how you responded to my opinion of your system. Pat D states "I should point out that you are making a circumstantial ad hominem by bashing my system, which is probably quieter than yours, I would guess. But then I am hardly surprised as you often resort to ad hominem. Why do you have a need to do that?"
Not an ad hominem Pat old boy, just an effort on my part towards giving your statements some credibility. Knowing the quality of what you listen to and consider to be "...the best speakers I have had and as good as anything I have ever heard." goes a long ways towards the weight I give your audio opinions. IMHO after reading that you're like someone who owns a Corvette telling a man who owns a Lamborghini Diablo GTR, why the Corvette is the better car. When the reality is, it's ONLY a better car in his mind and no where else!
Besides trying fiqure out what amount of weight to give your audio statements through knowing what you own and what you think of it, I gave you my honest assessment of what I consider to be a just barely entry-level highend system. I'd hardly call what I said "bashing it" though. I was only being honest of what I thought of a side-by-side comparison of our speakers.
You could be right though MAYBE your system is quieter than mine. But FYI with TAD 2001's, which are at least 96dB efficient on my SET nary a bit o'hiss was heard! It's quiet enough for me. Like you always say; But is it audible? So your entry-level system MAY be quieter than my system, but is the quietness difference audible? I'd say not!
Now as far as your statement of; I suggest you get a subwoofer if you want bass below 35 Hz. I'll wait till I get my RCA LC9A's up and running before making that decision.
Thetubeguy1954
Have you ever heard the Paradigm Reference Signature line?You seem to think that because you are attacking my credibility that you were not committing a circumstantial ad hominem by bashing my system. In fact, attacking credibility is precisely what an ad hominem is for. It is an invalid argument because it does not bear on the issue.
I'm glad you like your system.
BTW, it is not quite clear just what JA claims he heard, whether he proved it, or whether it is applicable to whether interconnects sound different. And the audible differences between speaker wires were found with much longer wires.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
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