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In Reply to: Re: Good Response Soundmind. posted by morricab on June 15, 2006 at 15:46:31:
>> The truth is that ALL distortion degrades the sound.
> And I would suggest that you don't understand my statementCan you please explain since it seems both unambiguous and incorrect and was not really addressed in your reply. It is incorrect because if the distortion is too small to be audible then the perception of the sound is not degraded.
> because the answer is obvious if you think about it. 1) It is an
> assumption on your part that valve amps are "heavily distorting"
> compared to SS amps.You are being dishonest. I asked: "How do you square this with significant numbers of people prefering the sound of a heavily distorting valve amplifiers to an inaudibly distorting solid state amplifier?" The assumption here is that heavily distorting valve amplifiers exist (e.g. SET amplifiers) and people exist who prefer their sound to undistorting solid state amplifiers (e.g. those who have paid a lot of money for SET amplifiers). Do you deny this?
> 2)It is an assumption on your part that SS amps are inaudibly
> distorting.I asked: "How do you square this with significant numbers of people prefering the sound of a heavily distorting valve amplifiers to an inaudibly distorting solid state amplifier?" The assumption here is that inaudibly distorting solid state amplifiers exist in significant numbers but not that all solid state amplifiers are inaudibly distorting which is obviously nonsense. Do you deny this?
> Not many people even here in the PHP would agree with this statement
I would hope not since it would appear to be wrong although it could stand a bit of clarification as to whether the words you are putting in my mouth refer to all solid state amplifiers under all conditions or competently designed ones operating under conditions which allow inaudible levels of distortion (and which you, presumably, dispute are inaudible).
> One argument is that while both are distorting and it is audible
> that one is more audibly damaging to the sound than the other. Clear
> enough for you?It could stand some clarification. It would appear to follow from this that you are stating that a competently designed solid state amplifier operating well away from clipping and into a relative benign load so that it can maintain inaudile levels of distortion is audibly damaging the sound? If so, how?
Why if the sound is degraded by low levels of distortion do all amplifiers, whether valve or solid state, that achieve these low levels of distortion sound indistinguishable from each other? That is, why are they all degrading the sound in the same way?
Or do you perhaps believe that all levels of distortion in all amplifiers are audible?
Follow Ups:
"It is incorrect because if the distortion is too small to be audible then the perception of the sound is not degraded."Please tell me where that level lies. See my post above for the whole discussion.
"You are being dishonest. I asked: "How do you square this with significant numbers of people prefering the sound of a heavily distorting valve amplifiers to an inaudibly distorting solid state amplifier?" The assumption here is that heavily distorting valve amplifiers exist (e.g. SET amplifiers) and people exist who prefer their sound to undistorting solid state amplifiers (e.g. those who have paid a lot of money for SET amplifiers). Do you deny this?"
I am never dishonest. You are the one using the word heavily distorting not me. IMO SET amps run within their true power limits are not heavily distorting. That is my point. Of course there are many people who prefer the sound SET amps...and with good reason.
"I asked: "How do you square this with significant numbers of people prefering the sound of a heavily distorting valve amplifiers to an inaudibly distorting solid state amplifier?" The assumption here is that inaudibly distorting solid state amplifiers exist in significant numbers but not that all solid state amplifiers are inaudibly distorting which is obviously nonsense. Do you deny this"
Do I deny what? Sorry I am not understanding the point you are trying to make here. I do deny that there exists any amp on the market that is inaudibly distorting. Is that what you mean?
"It would appear to follow from this that you are stating that a competently designed solid state amplifier operating well away from clipping and into a relative benign load so that it can maintain inaudile levels of distortion is audibly damaging the sound? If so, how"There you go again assuming that the distortion it is generating is inaudible. I dispute this. It will make distortion and I would argue that it is audible. Therefore it is damaging to the sound.
"Why if the sound is degraded by low levels of distortion do all amplifiers, whether valve or solid state, that achieve these low levels of distortion sound indistinguishable from each other"They do? Again, most here, including myself would disagree with this statement. You seem to think I accept your basic premise that all low distortion amps sound the same but I do not.
"Or do you perhaps believe that all levels of distortion in all amplifiers are audible"All levels? Probably not. Much lower than is generally given credit, yes.
> I do deny that there exists any amp on the market that is inaudibly
> distorting.The penny drops and I think I now understand your beliefs about amplifiers and distortion.
The obvious question is how do you square this belief with the results of experiments into the audibility of distortion? For example, how have experimenters managed to find the thresholds if their amplifiers (almost certainly quite ordinary solid state amplifiers) possess audible levels of distortion? Are all the researchers, referees and readers of journals in the area simply incompetent and the scientific method has broken down in this case?
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