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You still haven�t explained why DBTs can�t work for listening

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Caymus

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In Reply to: DBTs... posted by mkuller on April 23, 2006 at 12:34:26:

I work in speech research and we have successfully been using blind listening tests for decades to detect very subtle details in speech and audio perception. Hearing, as with any human stimuli, is perceived by the mind and therefore easily influenced by expectations and emotions.
In fact, our ability to understand speech is dependant on the amazing involuntary human ability to seamlessly create audio we never heard. Without that key skill, speech wouldn�t work.
Rather than continually dismiss the total failure of DBTs to substantiate audiophile cable claims with contrived excuses � maybe the reason cable difference tests fail is because DBTs are actually successful and indicate the listener most likely imagined the difference?

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Are you interested in learning or just arguing? - mkuller 15:01:35 04/23/06 (7)
> You still haven�t explained why DBTs can�t work for listening>
If you sincerely want to know WHY, I would suggest you read Jon Risch's work (see his website) and Robert Harley's AES paper, entitled "The Role of Critical Listening in Evaluating Audio Equipment Quality", the second half of which covers blind listening tests.
You can find Harley's paper as an appendix in the third edition of his "Complete Guide to High-End Audio".
- Just as I suspected - YOU don't really know - Caymus 15:58:42 04/23/06 (6)
  You boasted to be a DBT expert and when asked for YOUR knowledge - all you are able to do is blindly cling to someone else's rhetoric.
  Neither of the two naive references you mention have any credentials on modern human perception test methods. In fact their negative positions on scientific test methods conveniently happen to be self-serving:
  - Look who�s hawking for Monster Cable! (Open in New Window)
  - It appears to be the other way around to me... - Wellfed 15:34:10 04/26/06 (0)
    While I haven't read all of the website content, it appears to me that it is Monster Cable that is hawking Robert Harley's product(book). IIRC, Robert Harley has been an enthusiast of MIT cable products. I don't know if that holds true in recent years though as it has been years since I formed that opinion.
    As for mkuller's knowledge of DBT's, I don't think him citing two resources for you to view warrants the response I've attached this posting to. I'm curious do you have any published works on the subject of DBT's?
  - Caymus - KlausR. 09:07:44 04/24/06 (0)
    Risch says that "to maintain validity, listening tests must be performed under single-blind conditions".
    Harley gives reasons as to why blind tests are flawed, but on closer look some of these reasons also apply to sighted single-presentation tests. For the other reasons there's a simple answer.
    If you're interested in reading the papers, drop me a mail.
    Klaus
  - If mkuller essentially agrees with the substance of the - bjh 17:16:58 04/23/06 (3)
    references to which he has referred you then there is nothing to be gained by he simply parroting that same material. The fact that you find the materials wanting, that you deem it to be "rethoric", is quite beside the point.
    However, perhaps you could provide references to work in DBT, or controlled blind conditions, testing that has direct and meaningingful application to the field of HiFi Audio for the Home (i.e. HiFi for Audiophiles)?
    Findings that correlate reasonably well with the type of findings that audiophiles have been experiencing for decades would be interesting, or failing that a significant and meaningful body to work that convincingly disputes such experiences would also be interesting.
    - Hey, did I ask "Can BJH tell us what he thinks he knows about mkmuller�s views"? - Caymus 18:37:11 04/23/06 (2)
      What are you his apologist? What do you know what mkuller thinks or doesn�t think? Let the poor guy speak for himself.
      - It's a simple issue of bullying... - real_jj 12:52:49 04/24/06 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Hey, did I ask "Can BJH tell us what he thinks he knows about mkmuller�s views"? posted by Caymus on April 23, 2006 at 18:37:11:
        
        It's the same tactic that right-wing extremists and dominionists use to control public discussions, they simply pile on and on and on. It's nothing but "might makes right" coupled with a willingness to unethically revise both science and fact to fit their agenda.
        If enough of them pile on, they obscure the facts in their pile of deceptive, counterfactual rhetoric. It's the same as what the holocaust deniers, etc, use, in fact, as well as the rightwing nutcases, dominionists, christian reconstructionists, etc.
        In short, it's the modern version of "shout it down", or "burn the witch".
      - Well, should mkmuller pose to you the same question I put to you, - bjh 20:39:10 04/23/06 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Hey, did I ask "Can BJH tell us what he thinks he knows about mkmuller�s views"? posted by Caymus on April 23, 2006 at 18:37:11:
        
        or something substainially like it, i.e. the question you ignored when opting instead to produce a silly response, if he should do so ... then let it be known in advance that would be just peachy keen with me.
        Cheers

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