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In Reply to: After 20 years and not a single audiophile has been able to prove their fantastic claim... posted by Caymus on April 10, 2006 at 18:27:34:
Hi.One should learn more about cable before deafly denouncing its sonic difference.
(1) Conductivity of the cable conductor:
It depends on what metal used to build the cable conductors. Copper of commercial or industrial normally goes up to 98% & silver 99%.
But for audiophile use, some cable makers managed to purify the copper purity to 99.9999% (which is what I am using for my speakers)Believe or not, one hi-teck cable maker announces its pattented low-cost copper refining technology capable to achieving incredibly 99.99997%.
(2) Impurities:-
oxygen is a PITA when existed too much in the copper metal, which will oxidies the metal to form non-conductive copper oxides.
Also, other metal impurties, like iron, lead, antimony, arsenic, sulphur, & aluminum. etc. These impurities will cause electron
path diversion or speed slow-down.Ideally, all these impurities should be removed so that only pure copper there to provide a homogenous flow path for the signal electrons.
(3) Modular structure:
Theoretically, less crystals formed inside the conductor metal less crystal molecular boundaries or skins for the signal electronics to go through, faster the music signals pass through the conductor.
Less time lag, less phase distortion, therefore closer the music sound to its original.But standard industrial drawing of the copper wires is to force the molten metal flow through a COLD die. Too much stress on the molten metal going through the cold die will form many crytal structures inside the drawn wire.
Industrial grade copper, like those lamp cords & many off-the-shelf power cords availabel cheaply from the stores, got thousands of metal crytals inside the cable. More molecular boundaries to slow down the electronic flow, worse will be the sound.
A hi-teck cable maker claims to be cable to drawn the copper wire into one very very long crystal with its patented wire casting process. The average crytal length is up to 125 metres vs 0.02 meter length of a 99.99% oxygen-free high conductivity (OFHC) pure copper.
Electronic mcirographs show the different molecular structures.
Of ocurse, the choice of insulation compound of lowest dielectric contants, e.g. Teflon & foamed PE, is a crucial factor.
Effective geoemtric ways of winding the group of stands of conductor wires should be used to reduce the inductance & capacitance of the cable to mininum.
All these contribute to the sonic difference of a cable. If one claims there is no sonic dfference among different way of building a cable, so be it amen!
c-J
Follow Ups:
Speculation given as fact.And all the talk about conductor purity and crystal size relating to signal passage is misleading at best. Actual electron speed in the conductor is many orders of magnitude slower than the signal speed because the signal intelligence propagates via the electric field around the conductor not the electron flow through it. One affects the other but they are not the same. It is obfuscation to use the concept of signal flow synonymously with current or electron flow.
Now these things could affect sound quality, but so could room temperature, humidity, mood, lighting. No one has any way to prove that these qualities are what produce good sound.
It’s all irrelevant ad copy in the end. Just listen and buy what you like.
Hi.Whenever a signal wave cuts a conductor, an electronic flow is generated in the conductor. Likewise, whenever electrons flow through a conductor, a corresponding wave will be generated across the conductor. They both go hand in hand. This is electricity basic.
So because you assumed they both travelled different "speed" that they are in two different worlds? YOU already stated "One affects the other & they are not the same ". Of course they work together & of course, they are not the same. What's your reasoning?
So if your "speculation" was "given as fact", there would be no audio signal flow THROUGH the condudctor. Then a piece of 20-cent iron wire picked up from any hardward store would sound be be as good as any audio ICs. Are you using a steel wires as ICs?
How come you ended up saying: "Now these things could affect sound quality"? YOU contradict your own words!
The way you presented your argument like you were drunk. Such "mood" would also affect the sound you listen to.
c-J
Let us take one mole of copper. That's about 63.5 grams of it, give or take. That's about 7 cc's of copper, give or take. That makes it, oh, say 3'of speaker wire (one way, one conductor, pretty thick).Now, I start a current through the wire, at one amp.
That means that in one second, about 6.25 x 10^18 electrons come out of the wire into what it's connected to.
The 3 feet of wire takes about 5 nanoseconds, give or take, for the voltage to get to one end or the other.
On the other hand, there are 6.02x10^23 electrons in this bit of copper.
That means that an electron moves from one end, to the other, on average every (6.25*10^18/6.02^10^23)^-1, or about 10^5 seconds
The speed of the electron is about 3 feet per day.
The speed that the voltage travels at is about .6 foot per nanosecond.Would you say that there is a touch of a difference in speed?
Consider, then, how far an electron really moves "back and forth" with average currents in an average wire. Consider how that relates to simple thermal movement of the electron.
Then you can come back and apologize. Grovellingly.
Groundhogs are the preferred unit of measurement here.When ya gonna use exponents, like 6.25 x 10 18 ??
sheesh, up thingy's...
Hey jj, long time no talkie..how's it goin in real life?
Cheers, John
Just pointing out how unjustified claims are made and how misinformation is used.To restate: current flow does not equal signal flow. To use the two interchangeably is misleading. It gives the distinct impression to those not familiar with basic electrical theory that the signal travels through the wire by electron movement which it does not.
Could conductor purity, et.al. affect sound quality? Sure. My point was that these are but a few of potentially millions of variables that could and we have no way of isolating which ones actually do or don't. As such, stating that improved sound is caused by these qualities specifically is speculation pure and simple.
I know makers have to compete to sell cables and they are free to use whatever marketing tools they like. But when we as folks who hear differences in cables use pseudo-science to justify our position, we look the fool and play right into nay sayers hands.
I have not had anything to drink yet, but the workday is ended for me and I have some untouched Newcastle ale and a highly recommended low cost Cabernet from South Africa waiting at home.
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