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I am running live sound in a mid-small venue with a metal ceiling and tile floors. It seems there is nothing i can do to get the vocals out in the mix.
I know the issue here is stage volume because when a quieter jass or acoustic band comes through there is no problem. With the louder bands i have been getting the amps on stage to a good level for the room but that doesn't help with loud drum sets.
My system is a decent 3-way Stereo (4 EV Qrx 153/75 Hi/mid combo 2 per side. With 4 18inch EV subs. 2 per side) with enough power (all QSC amps). I would think with a good eq setting it could get loud enough to get over the drums and still be worth listening to, even in this small, live room. I have even padded the ceiling above the stage with absorbent foam to try and get the cymbal noise down but it didn't help enough.
Should i get some more absorption on the wall behind the stage? Would it be worth the money?
I was thinking of adding some center fills above the stage. this would give would give a little more clarity at less pa volume. I think. or maybe it would just add more unnecessary noise.
Should i just get a small line array or what?
Any thoughts?
Follow Ups:
I see your running metal bands> ?
Stage volume is a huge problem and especially in a reflective high reverb time room
You could do a few things
Hang black stage curtain across the entire stage area wall/s
Get a plastic drum shield to go around the drums
Check your gainsets....
If your levels from the mix to outboard gear to the amps are not right
your swimming against the current
Are you running your xover high enough output wise or at unity?
Have you run pink noise and set the system flat or are you doing it by ear?
If your doing it by ear get something to run pink noise with a measurement microphone and get it right
Those EV cabs should give you plenty of output in a club
I totally disagree with the post on running mono
I have had way better results running stereo on systems
Also, running in stereo you have a seperate EQ for each side which
is far better then having one EQ for a system spread apart like that
in a room
If you have set this system by ear then im gonna say there is an issue
You have got to set it with pink noise and get it closer to a flat
response
You can set your xover and everything with pink noise
If you dont have this kind of gear then go rent it and get it right
Yeah. thanks for that. I have a DBX pa Drive rack. but every time I run the pink noise/ auto eq it just makes it sound really bad. It seems to just boost the high end and not leave any real substance.
Crossover gain might be something to work on. It is down quite a few db.
The curtain idea is good too. That plan is already in the works.
Thanks for your help.
The auto setup is pretty much worthless. It does not include any time windowing and will include all the reflections, room noise, additions and cancellations in the measurement and will boost without regard trying to make whatever the timeblind mic sees.
The ONLY way it is of any good is to take the system outside-get it up in the air (say 20') and away from any reflective surfaces (including whatevery you have it suspended on), and make sure the level is high enough to be at least 20dB higher than all surrounding noise and have the mic on axis 2-3M away.
Then you can let it eq the system. Store that.
Of course everytime you go into a room, there may be smoe issues that you need to deal with, so add that on top of the already stored auto eq.
DO NOT re auto eq in the room.
Of course that is not the proper way, but the proper way has a big learning curve and can get expensive.
Well there is a clue right there with what your telling me
The auto eq seems to boost the highs
This is exactly why your not able to get the vocals on top
The auto eq is gonna set the system fairly flat
If the EQ of the auto set is way out of whack like boosting the highs
way up and it looks like huge changes on the eq then what you have to
do is this first
You have to set the levels of each bandpass individually so its
as close to flat as possible first!
Once you have set all the band pass levels close to flat as you can get
then run your auto eq
Also, pay attention to your threshold
Its entirely possible the threshold is set to sensitive and your
not getting the headroom you need
And yes output levels on the xover drive rack have got to be the
highest they can be without introducing distortion to the amps
Once a system is set to flat as possible then you can shelve the highs
on your tone controls on vocal channels
I typically shelve the highs up and cut the low control on vocal channels
This puts the vocal just over the top and not way out front of the mix
Sounds like the problem is that the drummer isn't listening, just bangin' away. If he can't learn to play musically with the rest of the band, find a new drummer. It'll have to be done eventually anyway if the band wants to get better. There's probably one at the door right now, delivering your pizza.
I know, in this age of PC and not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings, it's hard to buck up and tell it like it is.
Is the problem gain before feedback, sheer output, or bleed-over into the vocal mic?
Some things you might consider:
-Drum Shields:
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation?q=drum+shield&src=3WWRWXGG&ZYXSEM=0
Even just getting one wall between the kit and the microphone should be enough...no need to go hog wild with complete isolation. Most drummers/bands don't seem to mind a shield in front of them...heck, it makes the drums sound louder to the drummer.
-Supercardoid Mics:
http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Products/WiredMicrophones/us_pro_Beta58A_content
Btw, I do work for Shure, but in the past I've always had good results moving from SM58 to the Beta58 (and that was before I was hired). There are other options out there, but this is what I use and am most comfortable with. The Beta58 also has a little brightness thrown in which really helps the vocals cut through the mud.
-Address the mains:
To be honest, mono is always going to sound better in a live sound setting than stereo....if it is achievable without affecting sight lines, then it should really be the method of choice. Not only is it cheaper for a given level of performance, but you're going to get more even coverage and a cleaner sound. The "problem" is that it needs to be implemented correctly. Granted, it doesn't matter as much at frequencies where your mains are separated by more than 10x the wavelength, but I'm not sure how applicable that is in your situation. For instance, at 10ft you're only looking at 1kHz, so everything below 1kHz should really be flown mono. At 20ft, you're looking at 500Hz...it's not a sudden transition so there's some play involved, but that should just give you some perspective of what you're dealing with. Splitting the directivity in the 500-1kHz band isn't going to sound natural, so in this kind of situation it's usually better to go one or the other. However, subwoofers should just about always be run mono...
Here's a good article that dives into some of the acoustics involved - it's geared mostly towards low frequencies, but it can really apply to any frequency that doesn't follow the 10x spacing rule of thumb:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley
-Aim amplifiers and microphones away from each other.
You will probably notice that this won't go over very well with the band without a good monitor mix. Speaking of which, make sure you get off your duff and get up on the stage and listen to the monitor mix on the stage. If you're not doing this already, then I think you might be surprised how much the stage noise can be dropped.
I don't wanna divulge all my secrets, but I hope this helps. I've been there before and it can be quite frustrating, but it IS possible...just gotta work at it and learn what works for your environment.
...and like you say, some overhead fills with vocals only could help.
Over amping a room creates mud. Try the drums unmiked except for the bass drum (some drummers can play with a lighter touch if aware of the room's problems). Otherwise crank up the drummer's monitor of himself till he can't hear the band ;) - I'm a drummer so I can talk. He might be wearing hearing protection or can't hear anyway.
Keep the guitars out of the house mix, stage monitor only.
Save those ears.
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