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I just got off the Networking for Audiophiles Zoom webinar by Small Green Computer and Andrew Gillis. I thought Andrew did a great job and this session would have been very helpful especially for newbies who ask a lot of basic questions around here. There was no hard sell but of course products by Small Green Computer were incorporated in the slide deck.Some of the topics covered included:
A Brief History of Digital Audio:
- CD Players
- DACs
- Music Servers
- Network Streamers
- USB, SPDIF InterfacesBuilding your Audiophile Network
- Wifi vs hardwired
- Hardwired for the audio. Wifi for control via tablet.
- Mesh networks.
- HomePlug [Ethernet over electrical wire in your home]
- Network Switches - dumb vs managed vs audiophile grade
- Optical networking vs standard CAT6 CAT7 cables.Q&A Session:
They bravely fielded live Q&A in real time. And no technical glitches along the way... always a fear when doing anything live.
Overall I thought they did a great job and will hopefully do more Zoom Webinars in the future for computer audio and networking.
The presentation will soon be posted to their YouTube Channel. See the link below.
The whole enchilada, but Andrew starts with the basics and builds it out from there.
[EDIT]: The entire webinar presentation was recorded and is now up on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_fsgtV1vEs
Edits: 02/25/21 02/25/21 02/25/21 02/26/21 02/26/21Follow Ups:
and also hope he does more of them in the future. Quite a bit seemed fairly basic but he did raise a couple of points I might play around with. One point he made was that when hard-wiring you should wire your router with one cable to an ethernet switch and then run the rest of your equipment to the switch rather than to the extra ports at the router if your router happens to have them. Reason being that you can get a lot of garbage if you plug everything into the router. That didn't ring true to me because I've hard-wired from the extra ports of my routers for years and haven't had any problems to speak of. Maybe I've just been lucky in that regard though. He didn't talk about audiophile grade switches. He did make a comment however that "switches are only about 20 bucks" so I got the impression that he was ok with the low dollar ones.
I've not had problems with noise or ground loops in my system but I think I might try an idea he threw out there which was to use a fiber-optic cable on the input to the dac to isolate it a bit from ground loops and noise.
I thought Andrew did a great job covering a very wide range of topics in a short amount of time. I think it was a good presentation especially for anyone new to computer based audio, streaming, and networks. MOST problems that I see posted here come down to network related issues.
I also thought it was interesting that he confirmed what I have always said about galvanic isolation being an inherent part of the Ethernet spec - until it's not. And that isolation may no longer exist with audiophile high-end Ethernet cables that are shielded and use a metal shielded connector. Pretty audiophile CAT7 and CAT8 come to mind. Sometimes higher-end is not better.
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I want someone to tell me why wifi isn't a good solution. I don't want to hear that it "sounds better" with a cable, I want a solid, proven reason.
There is absolutely no reason at all that a file transferred with wifi is any different than one transferred via cable. None, nada.
"I want someone to tell me why wifi isn't a good solution. I don't want to hear that it "sounds better" with a cable, I want a solid, proven reason."Wifi is RF:
- RF signal strength is unpredictable at any given location.
- RF signal strength is unpredictable around obstacles.
- RF signal strength weakens over distance and is then more prone to intererence.
- RF is prone to interference by various sources like microwave ovens.
- RF is prone to interference by other Wifi users in your area."There is absolutely no reason at all that a file transferred with wifi is any different than one transferred via cable. None, nada."
You're not transferring a "file" when streaming audio. The bits are transmitted and played back in realtime, and prone to unrecoverable dropouts depending on the reliability of your Wifi network. See "Wifi is RF" above.
All that being said, if you have a rock solid reliable Wifi signal with no interference, it should work fine. However, the chances of interference and dropouts is practically nil on a hardwired Ethernet network. I have always preferred hardwired Ethernet over Wifi. In fact, nearly every room in our home has hardwired Ethernet. We use Wifi mainly for portable devices like iPads, iPhones, Amazon Echo devices, etc.
Wifi is OK when it works. Bluetooth... don't even get me started on that highly compressed bandwidth compromised abomination that was intented for wireless mice and keyboards!
Edits: 02/26/21
Sorry, I don't buy that. You are not transferring a file but you are transferring packets. And those packets all get checked for errors. This is no different than when it goes over a cable. Everything is stored and forwarded.
If one gets dropouts one's wifi network sucks. My networks shows as 480mbps on internal transfers, that's fast enough to send and resend dozens of times before I get a dropout. Usually when the music stops it is because of a glitch in the outside internet stream, not the internal router. The only thing real time in digital is transfer to the dac decoders.
RF really has nothing to do with it. We are so far beyond the days where it mattered. You are more likely to pick up RF on a cable that propagates in an analog waveform that you can hear, hence cable filters. One place where wifi could impact is that the receiving device generates its own noise running the wifi. But the same can happen with ethernet cables.
Here is an historical example. Back in the 80s, Philips/Sony was developing the CD. They came up with 16/44.1 as the storage/playback, and that would fit 75 minutes on to a CD so it could play Beethoven's 9th on one disk. It was a feat of engineering. What was the capacity? I think about 750mb, a huge amount of storage. The computer geeks realized instantly that they could now store much more too on a CD drive. We now have 256gb thumb drives, maybe even more. My original internet line was 1mbps DSL, it is now 220mpbs over cable, using the same cable that they installed to my house in the 1990s. The game was over with transfer and storage ages ago. And computer speed? My daughter's M1 Macbook Air runs circles around the big iMac I'm using. Moore's law really was a thing.
So, this isn't a rant at you Abe, I value your opinions. I just don't get the digital audio nonsense. We go about our non-audio digital business all day long without giving it a thought and it always just works, until it doesn't.
"And those packets all get checked for errors"Maybe, if they are TCP packets. Maybe not if they are UDP packets.
And even if the packet is corrected the retransmission might be too late as audio is realtime so the packet gets dropped and you hear it as noise.
As a HAM Radio guy from way back and based on experience I can tell you that RF is no where near as reliable as a physical wire. I'm not saying Wifi won't work. It does for many people, but I've seen so many more Wifi related problems posted around here compared to hardwired Ethernet.
YES YMMV, and if you have a solid Wifi setup that's great. Many folks don't and to eliminate all the variables that Wifi introduces, I always recommend hardwired Ethernet whenever possible.
No, it has nothing to do with speed. Even hi-res streaming doesn't require much bandwidth.
Edits: 02/27/21 02/27/21 02/27/21 02/27/21 02/28/21 02/28/21
as it is a semi-detached structure where running ethernet is impractical.
It did require re-purposing an older Linksys AP there to assure continuous streaming at 192/24. I also configured about half the RPI's memory as an output buffer. Not long after the stream begins, the unit plays from memory.
A few minor details.
I think about 750mb, a huge amount of storage.
The original 74 minute CD media had a 640 MB capacity while later 80 minute versions stored 700 MB.
We now have 256gb thumb drives, maybe even more.
1 TB microSD cards are now available from multiple vendors.
My NAS uses a pair of 2 TB Seagate drives that cost the princely sum of $50 each. Have a backup pair as well. ;)
Everything is playing from memory at some level, nothing is streamed directly.
Those minor details prove my point. 640, 700, 750, it doesn't matter as they are dwarfed by the sizes we have now. 1tb is a lot of storage to have on a thumb drive. While these are probably somewhat expensive, those 2tb Seagate drives are dirt cheap. I just put a 2tb WD drive on my computer as a backup unit. 1.75tb is still available. We've gotten beyond what is reasonably needed except maybe for 8K videos.
What does he say about audiophile-grade Ethernet switches? Something like the EtherREGEN unit from Uptone Audio? I just reread the review in TAS and have been curious about it's efficacy.
Tom
Andrew proposed using a simple unmanaged $20 Ethernet switch between your devices and router, rather than relying on Ethernet ports on the router itself. I'm not sure why but he alluded that they were not as "robust" or maybe noisier than using an outboard switch.He did briefly mention that the circuitry and clock on some audiophile switches are better than the garden variety Ethernet switch but he didn't have time to elaborate. I am skeptical of any improvements in ACTUAL sound quality using an "audiophile grade" switch. YMMV and I am generally a skeptic ;-)
The entire Zoom webinar presentation was recorded and is now up on YouTube at the link below.
Edits: 02/26/21 02/26/21
Thank you. I'll have to give the presentation a look. I'm not ready to plunk down the money for a fancy Ethernet switch either but the concept seems like it could have some merit. We take so much care in selecting the components of our stereo systems and then have it all rely on a device that wasn't really designed for music, with it's inherent need for accurate timing. You know, PRaT. :-)
Tom
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