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In Reply to: RE: So I now have Tidal integrated with Roon posted by PAR on May 12, 2017 at 02:02:49
"Hmmm, that is disappointing if correct. MQA is supposed to provide much higher rates."I viewed the stream as 48 24-bit while in Roon. I'm probably not decoding MQA, and that's why it shows as 48Khz 24-bit ???
But even 48-KHz 24-bit is an improvement over a standard 44.1 16-bit CD rip.
Edits: 05/12/17Follow Ups:
Yes, my guess is that you aren't decoding it. Since I wrote Jeff Starr seems to have come up with useful stuff on this aspect.
As for the 24/48Khz, then if you are not decoding I would guess that what you are seeing may not be what Tidal are sending you which should give a 16/44.1 readout as per normal streamed tracks. Were you not seeing 16/44.1 for other tracks I would have thought that it was just the data rate output by the computer's processor. That is unless Tidal give you the option of kernel streaming or other bit perfect feed to the DAC (as does Qobuz). If you are a Mac user then this may not be the case as I know nothing about Apple products. If a Windows user then it is quite likely as their sound engine processes the sample rate unless output is set to equal the (known) input.
If we have eliminated MQA decoding and tracks are definitely undecoded then there may be some aspect to the datastream that is causing an abberation in the DAC's data rate readout. I know that I have seen some very odd figures on my dCS' display when interconnects have not been correctly seated.
Perhaps an experienced Tidal Master/MQA user could add some advice as what undecoded Master tracks appear as ( I am thinking of ahendler in particular)?
The master file is 24/48. All the info as provided by Abe is correct. The Tidal built in software decoding will give you up to 24/96. Outboard decoding will give you up to 24/192. Basically you will get what the original recording was recorded at up to the limits as stated above. If you use the Tidal player and send to a dac that can only do 16/44 the dac will truncate the master file down to 16/44. My Master 7 which can do up to 24/192 gives me up to 24/96 with Tidal software decoding
Alan
"As for the 24/48Khz, then if you are not decoding I would guess that what you are seeing may not be what Tidal are sending you which should give a 16/44.1 readout as per normal streamed tracks."
See my post to Jeff Starr. I'm seeing 24/48KHz for Tidal Masters that are not being decoded. I see 16/44.1 on their HiFi streams (non-Masters). This is correct.
I'm now using the Wyred4Sound uLink USB to S/PDIF converter to the S/PDIF input on my older Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC. I was previously using it's Firewire interface and while Roon was handling it correctly Tidal was not.
While using the Tidal player, it now correctly displays streamed Master files as 24/96 on the DAC display as the Tidal player is doing the MQA decoding in software.
While using Roon player, it correctly displays streamed Master files as 24/48 as Roon is not decoding MQA.
Everything is now working as it should.
" See my post to Jeff Starr. I'm seeing 24/48KHz for Tidal Masters that are not being decoded. I see 16/44.1 on their HiFi streams (non-Masters). This is correct."
Sorry Abe but as I understand things that is not correct if Bob Stuart's comments about the effect of playing MQA files without decoding is truthful.
Bob Stuart says that if you play an MQA encoded file but do not decode it then it will be the same as ordinary files in the same medium except with the advantage of "deblurring". Therefore the undecoded Master files should be the same as other files offered by Tidal i.e. 16/44.1. MQA have never AFAIK said that undecoded MQA files would have a different data rate. If they did it would make undecoded MQA incompatible with numerous audio replay systems. A major part of their pitch is that is is supposed to be backward compatible with CD standard systems.
Of course I am not saying that what you are seeing is necessarily technically wrong merely that if it is correct then the MQA strategy is blown out of the water.
"Bob Stuart says that if you play an MQA encoded file but do not decode it then it will be the same as ordinary files in the same medium except with the advantage of "deblurring". Therefore the undecoded Master files should be the same as other files offered by Tidal i.e. 16/44.1."Seeing is believing and what you're saying is not what I'm seeing.
I can only reiterate that
- Roon software is showing 24/48 FLAC for undecoded MQA streams, also visible as 48.0 in my DAC display. Roon is not decoding MQA.
- When I enable "Passthrough MQA" in Tidal player settings it disables MQA decoding. And sure enough my DAC shows 48.0, not 44.1.
- When the Tidal player is doing the software decoding of MQA it correctly displays as 24/96, and the DAC displays 96.0.
- When I'm playing a non-MQA stream from Tidal (what Tidal calls HiFi) it shows up as 16/44.1 as it should, and the DAC displays 44.1.
All of the above is in agreement with the diagram provided in the Audiostream article:
Screen shots of Roon playing from Tidal, and Roon not decoding MQA "Masters"
Note the Signal Path shows FLAC 48-KHz 24-bit. My DAC also displays 48.0
Edits: 05/12/17 05/12/17
Thanks Abe. I hadn't seen that graphic before.What this shows (and some further reading confirms) is that you have gor Tidal Masters working correctly. It also indicates that Bob Stuart has not been straightforward about the MQA process (no surprise there given its history over the past months).
It makes any comparison of standard Tidal files v. undecoded Tidal Master files invalid as the comparison would be in fact be of CD format v. an upsampled file (which can be achieved in many other ways) irrespective of any benefit MQA and "deblurring" per se offers. I mention this as MQA claim that an undecoded MQA file sounds better than the original but not because of upsampling.
Edits: 05/12/17
Well, we may both have information that is not entirely correct or just outdated. I tried a small sample of what Tidal has labeled as "Masters" but I swear I saw one or two just recently that displayed 16/44.1 with MQA decoding disabled.So, it is possible that some Tidal albums that they mark as Masters may not be, or there might be some other reason why certain undecoded "Masters" are displaying 16/44.1 while others show 24/48.
I just ran into this after posting my previous response to you. Something weird going on here.
MQA is not important to me but since it's "free" with Tidal I thought I would play around with it.
Overall I am still impressed with the sound quality from Tidal streaming even at regular CD quality 16/44.1. My other streaming services all use lossy compression (Spotify, Amazon Music, Pandora) so I haven't been listening to them much.
I'll do more experimenting with Tidal Masters (MQA) as time permits.
Edits: 05/12/17 05/12/17 05/12/17
Also some Tidal masters have some tracks encoded and other tracks that are not. The encoded tracks play back as master and the non encoded says HiFi
Alan
That may explain it because I see some albums marked as "M" but when I play tracks from that album not all of them appear to be MQA encoded. Some playback as regular 16/44.1 "Hifi".
The reason some Masters show 16/44 is that is what they were recorded at.
I have a friend who built a studio in his basement years ago, his 8 channel ADC/DAC has the option of 44 or 48. I'm not sure, but I think it is only 16 bit.
Abe, does your Tidal app, stop playing when it goes from Masters to Hi-fi, or the other way around? I have to hit the next track icon to get it playing. I don't know if it is a bug, or the interface with my DAC.
Jeff -
I think it keeps playing when it goes from Masters to Hifi and the other way around, but I will need to double-check on this specifically. I didn't notice any issues but I was doing a lot of jumping around exploring and clicking. I'll need to queue up some Masters and Hifi and let them play. I'll let you know.
Oh, I found Lou Reed Take No Prisoners and I started playing it but never found the track where he talks about Walk on the Wild Side. To be honest though, I didn't hang around that album very long as I was too excited to do more exploring.
I'm having a blast! I can't believe all the great albums that are available in Tidal.... and they sound great, unlike the mainstream services. Thanks again for the coupon code!
Abe, No Prisoners was released as a double album. I think the "Walk On The Wild Side" monologue would have been at the start of side 3.
Give it listen all the way through, after you are done exploring. It is the kind of LP every fan should hear once.
I too was quite surprised to find some music, that was so obscure that it would never be on Tidal.
Jon Mark of Mark-Almond had a solo album, his first, that I never thought was released on CD, I had looked for it. I had it on cassette. So when I found it on Tidal, I was amazed.
I think people think it is just going to be hip hop, because Jay Z had started it. And the classical boys often complain it doesn't have much. I see quite a bit of it, although I have no idea if it is the good stuff. It used to be if you identified as an audiophile you had to be into classical. I like some of the string quartets, but the rest, I just have never connected to it. I'm sure there are some really great performances, I just like other genres better. And opera, it is like trying to listen to Yoko on her own, painful.
My only preference would be that Tidal would have let JRiver be used as a player option. I read that JRiver did the initial work, and Tidal turned them down. Maybe they were afraid that you might be able to copy the music.
One other thing is if you use a portable player, your phone or another player, you can load their app and if your account is active somehow load and play Tidal music without being connected. I haven't tried it, no player.
I am a classical guy and am very happy with Tidal. There is a ton of classical music on Tidal
Alan
Hey, that's good to hear. I don't know much about the genre. Maybe the complaints that I read were about Masters. It was a while ago.
One file that I have come to really like is Yoyo Ma, Chris Thile, and Edgar Meyers. "Bach Trios". I don't know if that qualifies as true classical, but it is very enjoyable. I do like the cello, I may have to look/listen to some more Yoyo Ma.
Weren't Yoyo Ma jokes popular in the 1990's?
Oh wait, I think those were Yo Mama jokes.
It's Mother's Day so I'll refrain from telling any maternal insult jokes today. ;-)
I'll give No Prisoners another try later.
I've been enjoying some of the playlists that Tidal creates. The one I ran into yesterday had every #1 hit from my birth year to 2016. I've also enjoyed some of the year-specific playlists like 1977 which was the year I graduated high school.
I was also able to import some Tidal albums into my Roon library integrating the two, instead of having to switch between Tidal and my local library on disk within Roon. The Tidal albums that now show up in my Roon library don't actually take up disk space and they appear with a small Tidal logo on the album cover to help distinguish them from the local albums that I own.
I know that other streaming services allow you to download tunes to your portable player - iPhone/iPod Touch/Android- for a period of time for offline playback. I'll have to explore that capability with Tidal. Hopefully the downloads are their "Hifi" quality files (16/44.1) or better. It wasn't worth the trouble downloading from the other streaming services as those would be low-res lossy compressed music.
when decoding some but not all TIDAL Masters using the OS-X player.
Sounds not great though. The SMSL M8 is a cheap DAC ($179 on MassDrop) compared to the Audio-GD Master 11 I normally use for such purposes. Only reason I bought it is I wanted a DSD DAC. I do need to try a better PS on it though as the cheap switcher may be some of the problem.
Do wish the Audio-GD products would display bit depth/sample rate, but given the sound quality, I can live without it.
My current setup is Raspberry Pi/HiFiBerry Digi+ Pro to Master 11 via S/PDIF for everything but TIDAL Masters which is MacBook Air USB to Median Explorer 2 to Master 11 preamp input because the headphone amp in the Master 11 is unbelievably good.
See my comments to Jeff Starr and PAR .It's all fixed and working properly now.
Edits: 05/12/17
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