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For the past 5 years I've been using a MacBook Pro as both my home computer (work and pleasure) and my music server, all the while intending to, but not getting around to, setting up a dedicated server for my music. I use iTunes to rip CDs and as my library interface and I use Pure Music as my player with USB, although sometimes I just use iTunes as the player with either the optical out or wifi streaming.
I am very comfortable with how that platform has worked, but I've kind of kept my head in the sand over the past few years with respect to all the developments since then and frankly don't want to get too bogged down in new technology If I can reasonably avoid doing so.
With that background, is the Mac Mini with Pure Music still considered a state-of-the-art dedicated music server in its current iteration? Aside from the price, which I agree can get high, is there anything "wrong" or materially obsolete these days with such an approach?
From what I can tell based on a bit of research, the 8 gb memory on the $699 version is still considered sufficient, and so long as I have a back up external HD, the standard 1 TB internal hard drive should be fine for me. I am at about 300 gb of Apple Lossless rips and don't see that going up exponentially, but rather relatively modestly over time. And I like the fact that the current Mac Mini version still has Ethernet, USB and thunderbolt connections. At least I think I do because I can continue to use Thunderbolt from my external HD and USB to connect to my DAC.
I'd like to avoid a screen, mouse and keyboard entirely. Given that I have a MacBook and iPad, I assume I could set up the new Mac Mini through screen sharing, and also use screen sharing for ripping music, and then use the control app as I do now for when I play music? So, the only add-on I would need would be the optical disc drive?
I'd love some advice and gentle, patient handholding on this inquiry . . . it's been awhile since I've given this much though, my MacBook Pro is nearing the end of its life, and I want to get my ass in gear!
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"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Follow Ups:
Roon offers a 14-day trial period, so just sign up, load it to your MacBook Pro, connect the Mac to your DAC via USB as you already do, and try it out! You just need to point it to your music library during setup and you will be ready to go.
You control music selection and output zone location ("endpoint") through the Roon iOS app.
And endpoints can be added wirelessly or through wired Ethernet. An endpoint's only task is to receive the Roon stream and output it.
All your Airplay-enabled devices (AppleTV, Airport Express, etc.) are automatically Roon endpoints so you can stream to them directly. I stream to my Yamaha and Marantz network receivers that have Airplay.
Roon also offers its "Roon Bridge" software for download that enables any PC or Mac to be an endpoint. I have a cheap (~$250) dedicated hp mini desktop computer in my main system running this software. It's connected to my DAC via USB. Other than the Raspberry Pi, which is a bit too DIY for me, this is the least expensive way to get a Roon endpoint that will pass high resolution PCM or DSD.
Yes, I will do the trial period, but it's your information on wireless endpoints that I wasn't getting, and this is very helpful.
So, in order to stream wirelessly with Roon, I can do any of the following:
1. Stream in up to 16/44.1 to an airport express or Apple TV or an iPhone or iPad. So if I have an old iPad or iPhone on a digital docking station connected to a DAC, Roon will see it and I can use it as an endpoint?
2. Stream in high resolution to any Mac or PC that has Roon Bridge installed onto it and a USB output. That would be great because we already have a cheap Windows based laptop we're not using and I'll be getting a new MacBook and retiring this one as it's old and slow.
I think if I am getting the above correctly, i'll pull the trigger.
Oh, one more question - Would Roon recognize an Oppo as an endpoint? I'm pretty sure they are not Airplay devices, but I see their name listed on the Roon website.
Thanks!
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
The best part of Roon is how it integrates with Tidal and internet radio.I subscribe to the "premium" 256kbps stream of JAZZRADIO.com for $70 annually. There are 35+ channels and it sounds pretty good. Each channel has a separate URL that can be entered into Roon as a preset. Artist and title are shown while streaming, so when I hear something I like, I look up the artist and can find results in my library and in Tidal. I can then add any albums I find in Tidal to my library and it is if they are ripped to my hard drive.
Here is a screenshot of the process for "Kenny Burrell", which was playing a few minutes ago on JAZZRADIO.com's "Guitar Jazz" channel. I searched for "Kenny Burrell" and found that I have 24 albums by Kenny Burrell in my library, but Tidal has an additional 49. Note that the track I was listening to changed to Elek Bacsik while I was taking screen shots.
Edits: 01/16/17
Glad I could help.
1. Correct - resolution limited to 16/44.1. Yes to the Airport Express and AppleTV. No to the iPhone or iPad. Any device that shows up in the Airplay tab of iTunes will also show up as a Roon endpoint.
2. Yes you have it. There's lots of talk about the specialized devices like microRendu, but pretty much any PC or Mac works as an endpoint since a fairly low level of processing is required. The little hp mini is connected to my network via wired ethernet now, but it could be connected wirelessly and still function as a Roon endpoint.
The Oppo will not be recognized as a Roon endpoint. Oppo appears in the "Roon Tested DACs" section of the Roon website, meaning that it works with the output of a Roon endpoint. Not very useful information, IMHO.
.
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"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
...that you already alluded to, is that you can have as many end-points as you like, and they don't have to be dedicated 'streamers'. I use the microRendu dedicated streamer but when I first started playing with Roon I tried other end-points.
Roon on my main Mac Mini (left) streaming to an older Mac Mini set up as an 'end-point' that has Roon bridge software on it.
In the test setup above, I would simply swap the DAC USB cable between the main Mac Mini or the 'end-point' Mac Mini depending on which 'zone' I had selected in Roon. Many dedicated streamers that are "Roon Ready" (like the microRendu) have the bridge software pre-loaded.
I agree with G_Squared . Well engineered and mastered recordings matter the most, a good music file is also important (no MP3 or AAC rips), with a good DAC. I find these to be most important.
Like other general purpose computers (PC's) there's nothing obsolete about using a Mac Mini as a 'traditional' music server. A 'traditional' music server may no longer be as fashionable but they're perfectly fine. I had the early Intel based Mac Mini's in 2009 and now use a 2012 Mini that continues to serve me well.
I've used iTunes alone, and I've used Pure Music and Audirvana Plus both in iTunes integrated mode where iTunes manages the music library but the other software bypasses Apple's CoreAudio and offers other features to improve the sound. I still use Audirvana Plus and the setup sounds wonderful.
If you buy a new Mac Mini, 8GB should be fine. You will want to transfer your music library from your existing Mac to the new one. Keep in mind that iTunes is also a database so you're not just moving your music files. I'll link to a couple steps below that make it very easy.
In fact I just transferred my iTunes library to my wife's 2015 MacBook Pro running the latest macOS 10.12.2 Sierra. I backed up iTunes to an external USB disk then restored it to my wife's Mac as described in the links below. It was easy and flawless.
I wanted to see if I encounter any USB audio problems with macOS Sierra. I tested playback through my USB DAC with no issues. Obviously not a thorough test but it worked fine for me. There were reports of USB audio problems when macOS Sierra 10.12 was first launched. They appear to be resolved in 10.12.2 and popular player developers are also reporting that their products are now compatible including Pure Music, Audirvana Plus, and Roon.
Manage and backup your iTunes media library
How to move your iTunes library to a new computer.
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About Roon:
I am also using my Mac Mini with Roon. It's not as complicated as it seems. There are a few ways to use it and the examples below are not mutually exclusive:
1) Install Roon on the Mac Mini with a local keyboard, mouse, LCD screen to manage it, then straight out to the USB DAC. Simple. This is my office setup.
2) Roon on the Mac Mini just like #1 above but using the Roon App on the iPad as a remote control. Still simple and works great. Instead of walking over to the Mac Mini across the office, I'll use the iPad from my desk to control my music library with the Roon App.
3) Roon on the Mac Mini just like the two above with Roon 'bridge' software on the network streamer. The network streamer can be another computer on your network anywhere in your house, or it can be a dedicated commercial device like the microRendu. In the case of dedicated commercial streamers some come pre-loaded with Roon 'bridge' and are often labeled as "Roon Ready".
I have the microRendu streamer in the basement and when I go down there to listen to music, I take the iPad with me. The music library resides on the Mini up in my office and I use the Roon App on the iPad to 'direct' it to play through the networked microRendu streamer. The streamer is USB attached to my other DAC in the basement. In this case the Mac Mini in the office is essentially acting as "Network Attached Storage" (NAS) where my music files reside.
One nice thing about Roon is that it discovers your existing iTunes library as it resides on your Mac. No need to rearrange it or create a new directory structure.
If you're planning to 'rip' more CDs you're going to NEED a computer somewhere in your system anyway. The same Mac Mini up in my office is used for ripping my CDs, for local playback in my office, and as a NAS when streaming to the microRendu in the basement. I can also stream to the AppleTV boxes in family room and bedroom.
I spent some more time online figuring out Roon a bit more, as well as how sonicTransporter and microRendu work, and this morning I spoke with a friend who also uses Roon on a Mac Mini using Roon's control app on his devices. That is, his system fits your scenario #2. But your post more than anything so far pulls a lot of this together for me! So, I'm getting there, but I'm still struggling with some core questions, so with your permission I'll list a few more out for your consideration:1. Among its other functions, isn't Roon a player itself like Pure Music and Audirvana Plus? Doesn't it bypass CoreAudio and stream the music files? In that case, why would you still use Audirvana Plus and how are the two compatible? Or am I wrong?
2. When you talk about a network and a network streamer, do you mean by ethernet only? On its website, Roon says to consider its RAAT function (transport) like "Airplay for audiophiles", but how can that be if it doesn't stream wirelessly? Our house is not wired with Ethernet connections in separate rooms. We only have ethernet ports on our cable modem and wireless router in a single room. For remote rooms, we've so far relied on Airplay (with its limitations) to stream wirelessly to an Apple TV and/or Express that are in turn connected to DACs by toslink or processors by HDMI. With Roon, would I continue to have to do that for remote rooms given our lack of ethernet connections to other rooms? In other words, I could only use it for your scenarios 1 and 2?
3. The microRenu has me scratching my head a bit. It's described as a "player", which I understand. But does it do anything other than receive a data stream by ethernet and convert it to a playable USB output for a DAC under a Roon controlled system? Can it be used as a server also or does it rely on an upstream computer?
4. Then there's the sonicTransporter, which seems like a nifty way to take a general purpose computer out of the audio system, but I gather it does not stream wirelessly. So, I am assuming that without an ethernet wired home, I could only use that server in a single room directly to a USB DAC. Is that right?
Thank you again a million times!
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Edits: 01/16/17
Hi Josh -#1) I don't believe Roon bypasses CoreAudio but it still sounds outstanding. It is not 'compatible' with Audirvana or Pure Music that I am aware of. I just happen to still have Audirvana and fire it up now and then. However, my primary player is now Roon. That being said, Roon is compatible with HQPlayer so some folks use Roon as a 'front-end' AND HQPlayer to tweak the sound. I played with it. It was good and has lots of 'knobs' to play with, but it's not something I have to have. I didn't mention HQPlayer earlier as it would possibly confuse things and make it more complex than need be.
#2) You can use Roon over wifi but like most network streaming scenarios it is better to use hardwired Ethernet. Higher res music files require more bandwidth and the reliability of the network becomes more important. Wifi -may- work fine for you but your chances are better at typical CD resolutions vs hi-res PCM or DSD. Of course, the streamer device must also support wifi. The microRendu streamer that I use supports strictly hard wired Ethernet.
#3) The microRendu is a network streamer and it gets it's music from a networked computer, dedicated NAS, or some services like Tidal or Qobuz. The microRendu does not store any music locally. It gets it from elsewhere. You initially interact with the microRendu through your web browser by inputting the IP address of the microRendu into your web browser URL field. Here you can setup the microRendu. Once setup, it's just a streamer and you no longer need the web interface. I then use Roon on my iPad. From within Roon, I can direct the music to be played thru the microRendu or played thru my Mac Mini. Different streamers offer different features and support for various streaming services (Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, Pandora, etc), if that's important to you. I use the microRendu with Roon so the fact that the microRendu supports Roon is important to me, but I don't care about Spotify, Pandora, etc. Maybe you do, so keep that in mind if you go with a streamer someday.
#4) The sonicTransporter is still built upon a general purpose computer ("optimized" I suppose) but it will not (to the best of my knowledge) allow you to output to a directly attached USB DAC. It will not allow you to rip new CD's. You will still need a computer somewhere. And it will require that the music be on an external USB disk drive. The sonicTransporter will be doing the same thing as my Mac Mini in terms of running Roon and streaming over the network with the RAAT protocol (Roon Advanced Audio Transport). With the Mini I can also output directly to a USB DAC when I choose to, or output to the microRendu streamer, and I can rip my CD's.
P.S. There is no one 'right way' to setup your system. You have to take into account not only the quality of the sonics but all the features and conveniences that you want.
Edits: 01/16/17
Use PM and I am happy. I improved my DAC with good results. I still find well engineered and mastered recordings matter more than fiddling with the digital side of the playback chain.
The most substantial changes I made recently were adding a killer sub and replacing speaker spikes with isolators
I'm trying not to go overboard or lose myself in all the new stuff. But Roon intrigues me.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Edits: 01/16/17
It looks like Roon offers an excellent interface. Kinda of Like looking at album covers and liner notes on steroids. I have a simple set up. One MacBook Pro running PureMusic no upsampliny, external hard drive with all my music is ripped in AIFF uncompressed or downloaded in AIFF or ALAC in hi Rez, USB connection to my Schiit Bifrost Multibit. I'm keeping it simple for now. My guess is Roon will make it more fun with similar SQ. Abe has good advice and is generous with it for us neophytes.
Thanks Abe and good luck Josh.I looked at your system. We have similar goals in our combined 2 channel music and HT set ups.
Edits: 01/16/17
"With that background, is the Mac Mini with Pure Music still considered a state-of-the-art dedicated music server in its current iteration?"
Are you trying to start world war 3? :)
The problem will be in finding consensus on what is considered state of the art now and in the past.
These raspberry pies and micro rendfus feeding your usb dac seems all the rage around here these days.
I know you said you aren't very interested in new tech but if some of it were to offer steps forward in terms of what current trends in state of the art can provide....it might be unwise to ignore it. Time will tell.
The new ethernet stuff looks really interesting to me. Ever since USB dacs started getting popular, and users are trying to share an audio signal ground with a PC is when all hell broke loose. In my opinion we can't get away from usb fast enough. Even the micro rendus stacked on everything else in the universe is apparently still not enough judging by the user posts on this forum. I used to think maybe all the usb stuff would be solved with some good isolators/filters but it sure has become a persistent pain in the neck immune to quite a bit of apparent engineering effort.
Maybe the near future is when we discover ethernet audio is the next big nightmare, maybe not.
I think one of those Merging NADAC's would be pretty bitchen to play around with.
Joking. Well, sort of jokingI'm not a techie. I have a working understanding of how a Mac-based system's architecture works with the major third party players like Pure Music. But (1) I don't want to go back to Windows because I personally don't like it and (2) when I try to figure out how all of the various options for servers and streamers work, I really struggle, and it's not for lack of trying.
Just as an illustrative example, I just went to the Roon website since everyone is praising it and I had no idea what it even was. After reading and re-reading their site, I understand about half of what they're saying. I get that it is software that must reside on a computer, including a tablet or smart phone, and that it can somehow find any music source that resides within a network, whether a file ripped from a CD or downloaded, or a music streaming service like Tidal. And I get that it then compiles all of those files or other sources into a great, creative library interface that you can access and control through any iOS or Android device. But what I don't get is the player part, or the streamer part. That is, how the heck does it get the music from the source to a DAC? One thing they say is to think of RAAT as "Airplay for Audiophiles", but on the other hand I can't find any confirmation that it has it's own streamer or how that would work or how a USB DAC would be compatible with a wireless streamer.
And if it has a streamer, then why are people using it together with this Raspberry Pi 3 thing, and what is that exactly and how does it work, etc.?
And how would it all work with non-Mac/PC servers, such as the little green computer products or the Elac server?
I mean, these are separate and actual questions I have about a specific product offering, but I also list them out as examples of how I struggle figuring out the technology and how it all works together.
I'm pretty hopeless I guess when I try to envision an actual system that I could configure and use. Maybe I just don't have what it takes to compile a CA system that combines excellent sound with relative ease of use.
FINAL EDIT: Reading this I know I sound like a whiny baby. Perhaps I just need to research more and more to figure this stuff out better, and then ask targeted questions.
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"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Edits: 01/15/17 01/15/17 01/15/17 01/15/17
It does seem complicated but if you read enough reviews, it finally sinks in....its not all that complicated. I will admit that before setting mine up, I diagramed it out. But it worked first time.
Think of endpoints like an apple TV (and an apple tv can be used as an endpoint) It takes the data and converts into something your tv can use.
An endpoint can get its data from ethernet (a raspberry pi, a micrrendu, a few dacs with ethernet bridges built in) or form wifi. (apple airport or TV for example)
I have a sonic transporter from Small Green Computer and it does nothing! It sits there and hosts roon and its metadata. It makes not a noised works perfectly with about two minutes of set up.
The elac does a bit more (it has a dac too) and comes with a roon subscription. Its an even simpler option.
Since you have a sonic transporter, I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind:
1. Will the sonic transporter itself stream wirelessly to an endpoint, or only through an ethernet cable?
2. Will the sonic transporter deliver a playable signal directly by USB into a DAC, or only through an endpoint?
I do think I'm getting there on what Roon is now. But I'm trying to figure out if I can manage a CA system without a Mac or PC in the chain at all by instead using a sonic transporter, or whether people are sill using it with another computer in the system (and if so, why).
As Abe points out, I'll still need one to rip CDs so I'll probably be going for a Mac Mini with the separate CD drive, but still trying to think it all through.
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
The ST will not stream wirelessly. You would need to use ethernet to get it to a wireless router. Mine is all hard wire at this point so I'm not using wifi but its possible.
You need an endpoint for Roon to play into a dac. Something as cheap as a Raspberry Pi will do (or better yet a microrendu at 10 times the price.
The beauty of the ST is no other computer is needed. The Roon core lives on it. Its also completely silent and tiny. As far as ripping cds, my understanding is I'll need my laptop to rip and send to my NAS. I don't think you can attach a drive anywhere else...
anyone want to chime in?
As far as I know, no matter what OS you decide to use, the magic is in what features the playback software allows.
I think a lot of guys around here use Jriver. Apologies if that doesn't happen to be Apple compatible. I don't actually use it myself.
It seems like the USB guys spend all their lives trying to reduce processor and subsystem loading noise as much as possible during playback so it wont infect the audio. I think alot of the popular apps like Jriver are set up to make these things easy to do.
Apologies if that [JRiver] doesn't happen to be Apple compatible .
It is compatible.
It seems like the USB guys spend all their lives trying to reduce processor and subsystem loading noise as much as possible during playback so it wont infect the audio.
Some do but it's not necessarily a life time endeavor. I just use an Intona isolator, some like the Regen, others like the latest tweak of the month. Some enjoy messing with USB cables to the point of unnecessarily butchering them. But it's not like one has to dink with it endlessly to enjoy outstanding audio.
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