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In Reply to: RE: "ballistic" posted by Sordidman on December 28, 2014 at 09:45:55
What have I said in my previous two posts to you that are NOT true?
I don't need to address every one of your points and answer them all as we've gone through this before.
Follow Ups:
well, just about everything you said is not truei have not gone ballistic
These are blatantly not off the shelf PC mainboards
None of these devices meet the definition of audiophool devices
what have i said that isn't true?
Yes, we've been over this and you're wrong. These are facts. You haven't addressed them. You can't just change the definition of something because you personally don't happen to like one of the things. It's like trying to say that a particular chair is not a chair because you happen to not like it: all the while, someone is sitting on it. Just because most new TVs have a NIC card, can browse the Internet, has an OS that runs apps, has a mainboard that is even closer to a PCs mainboard: doesn't mean that we call it a PC.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 12/28/14 12/28/14 12/28/14
Here's a summary of what I said. What here is not true?
------------
So I'd like to see the insides of their purpose built audio device. Does it use a motherboard or not? Is it one of the standard PC form factors? Do you know? Does their website specifically say?
------------
Why do you have such a huge investment in asserting that these are all PCs
I don't.
However, there are many such 'audiophool' products disguised as dedicated audio devices that DO in fact use standard off the shelf PC motherboards. We've uncovered and discussed many such products here in the Asylum.
------------
First, I never said any of these products were scams or inferior.
My point is that many 'audiophools' somehow think that these 'dedicated' audio devices are somehow special when in fact many of them DO use standard off the shelf motherboards.... the same motherboards that many here use in their PC audio setups. Fact.
So some folks enjoy tweaking their PCs for better sound. How is that different than a manufacturer who tweaks a PC motherboard and OS for you?
And lastly, no need to go crazy ballistic.
-------------
""Does it use a motherboard or not?""
A motherboard does not necessarily a PC make.
& a motherboard is not the only component that makes a "dedicated" audiophile product. Would you like me to define that? But, - you can pretend to not know, but everyone here knows that you are yourself are building your own linear power supply, - taking some step(s) toward a dedicated audio product.
""Is it one of the standard PC form factors?""
Of course it isn't and you know it is. A rasberry Pi is not: nor is a squeezebox. The only one that it might be in this group of five is the Auriliti.
Again, if it can't function as a PC, is only used for one of the things that a PC is designed to do, (and vastly improves on that), then it can't be called a PC, - even if the mainboard was remotely similar in some limited aspects.
How does calling my responses to you qualify as going "ballistic." Because I am calling you out on being wrong, and you can't admit it, your are deflecting the subject away from the subject?
"We've uncovered and discussed many such products here in the Asylum."
That is simply not true. Cite 1.
""Does their website specifically say?""
You trust everything I write as being the absolute truth? right? (LOL)
Does Oppo's, Does Logitech's? Interesting how Oppo, Logitech, Sonos, and MSB are not called PCs either. I guess that everything with a mainboard & a NIC card is a PC? I think that I call it an amplifier: since we're being arbitrary... LOL.
""My point is that many 'audiophools' somehow think that these 'dedicated' audio devices are somehow special when in fact many of them DO use standard off the shelf motherboards.""
Who are you calling an audiophool? Please be specific. I don't know what you mean by "special," but even if they did use standard off the "shelf motherboards" the other components surrounding the motherboards make them vastly better than PCs, and are very important to SQ: especially when taken together. (Do you need me to list them, or are you forgetting about what you're doing to make your own MAC, - not a MAC: i have a feeling that I'll be waiting forever for an answer to that one).
Cherry pick time, oh: why don't you accuse me of being hysterical too, that will provide another cover to not addressing the issue at hand.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I fundamentally made the comment that many of these so called dedicated audio products use standard off the shelf motherboards. Maybe not the products that you are so in love with, but many do. What's not true about that? I've seen many such products and we've discussed them here.
Also, if you are so vehemently anti "computer audio" why do you keep posting here? Perhaps the more generic "Digital" forum is a better place for your dedicated audio appliances?
P.S. Where do you get the idea that I'm building a linear power supply? I haven't built one for years.
""standard off the shelf motherboards"" ""What's not true about that?""They are not "off the shelf" You can't buy a rasberry Pi "off the shelf" You can't buy the modified Bryston board off the shelf, - it is custom. The Sim Audio mainboard is available off line. And, the Sonore & the Auralic Aries are mainboards custom built and not capable of being purchased by an end user.
...something that you can't seem to comprehend, a PC needs much more than a mainboard before it is considered a PC/computer.
""vehemently anti "computer audio" why do you keep posting here?""I am not vehemently anything.
Chris told us that this forum is to be used for ANY and ALL discussions on digital file playback. And, you are equally Anti-computer, as you're in the process of turning your computer into "not-a-computer."
We should also be posting here, and posts have been moved here from digital relating to Squeezeboxes, Oppo digital file playback, etc.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 12/29/14 12/29/14
They are not "off the shelf" You can't buy a rasberry Pi "off the shelf"
I bought mine off the shelf from Amazon. And I used a couple different OS's on it including OpenELEC .
You can't buy the modified Bryston board off the shelf, - it is custom. The Sim Audio mainboard is available off line. And, the Sonore & the Auralic Aries are mainboards custom built and not capable of being purchased by an end user.
So? Did I say they were? No, I said many such products DO use off the shelf motherboards. Is that incorrect?
...a PC needs much more than a mainboard before it is considered a PC/computer.
I'm not arguing that point. Where did I say anything contrary to that?
We may have different distinctions between off the shelf/and PC mainboards.We have already shown that the Rasberry PI is so difficult to use a PC, - that we might as well say that it can't.
The Razberry Pi is a speciality audio USB mainboard that a consumer can buy.If you call that audio board purchase "off the shelf" I'll be happy to concede that good point.
The other "off the shelf" mainboard which is a better example actually, -is the Auraliti: that has a video card, NIC, card, hard drive, runs Linux.
The Bryston, Sonore, Aries, Squeezebox, streamers (mainboards) can't be bought by the consumer.....
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 12/29/14 12/29/14
Is this an audiophile product?
Do you have any thought of your own? Are you willing to examine evidence that leads to reasonable deductions based on its veracity?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I asked you a simple question....
Either yes...? or no...? Do you have an answer?
You comment makes no sense at all.
I asked two questions.
Your question made no sense at all.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Then it shows your real intent. Have fun... smh Do not have time for bull shit... sorry.
for bullshit, - why did you post off topic?
Or is it just that you don't like having your own crap thrown back at you?
To start a new subject: create a new post by selecting the Post Message button.I don't have time, sorry....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 01/07/15 01/07/15
Exactly on topic. Some keep talking about motherboards and their pedigree and how t relates to sound quality.... The board in the PogoPlug is being used in highly touted streamer.
Everything is not as simple as it seems. You can often put a pedestrian item in a pretty box, slap a big name on it and everyone goes nuts! Like ST who loves the Bryston stuff. I actually never heard a Bryston product that sounded that great IMO. And that goes back to the 70s. The amps were always dry and two dimensional to me. I still often get that feel from their stuff. YMMV...
This discussion was about 2 things: which I can't see how could possibly be muddled.1. Does the Sonore Rendu use a custom built mainboard from Switzerland that is designed only around playing back digital files?, (streaming from a NAS).
(The answer to that is an indisputable yes: for the reasons cited, & what the manufacturer told me: why would he lie when one can clearly see it)?Does it sound better because of it? I hope to know soon.
2. Gordon said that he thought about building an "audiophile" mainboard but he didn't think that he'd get enough interest. I speculated that because the Sonore was a custom built mainboard that only had 1 or 2 things in common with a PC: (no USB bus, no ESATA or HD bus, no I/O capabilities, no video, no PCI, etc), and the fact that the manufacturer told me about the other aspects/parts, (linear PSU, internal damping, connector quality, processor topology, proprietary SPDIF as the only output, etc) that this was more in line with what Gordon was talking about.
The Apple TV, and the Squeezebox, and the Sonore, all are streamers. They have more in common with each other, (and an Oppo), than they do with a typical MAC or PC computer.
I do not know if I would call the PogoPlug an audiophile device. I would probably say no, because its main purpose: it does not have many of the elements required to make it a high performance audio playback device.
I did not know that it had a board in it that was common to a streamer. I would call the SBT an audiophile device because it (playback) is improved considerably by using the digital out, using an aftermarket PSU, defeating the screen, & utilizing a NAS, instead of an USB HD.
IMO, - the Apple TV is not. But the Sonore has more in common with the Squeezebox than it does with a PC. That's one of the reasons why the manufacturer CALLS the device a streamer instead of a computer.
""You can often put a pedestrian item in a pretty box, slap a big name on it and everyone goes nuts!""
I believe that that may be true but not "often:" - as it gets found out quickly enough, and if it doesn't perform better, the item gets exposed and will quickly be gone: (it happens more often in the mid-end, and low-end were less attention is paid). In Bryston's case, - the mainboard certainly is "closer" to an off the shelf product: but it's still a custom board, and we know that things like the power supply, connector quality, wiring to the connectors count for a lot.
That being said, I share your opinion of Bryston as a company, and although I disagree a little, - (I've heard some very good sounding high-current, amps from them), - I am with you.Earlier in this thread, it was nice to get some corroboration from Gordon, that philosophically, a high performance digital playback device/transport is "better" when it has those same HARDWARE elements as other good high performance audio devices do: a very good PSU, very good connectors, removal of superfluous parts from the signal path, damping, etc. With a streamer, one still needs a processor, and therefore a mainboard: the more that you can move that board away from being multi-dimensional, the better that is going to sound. I wonder if someone will design, & somehow implement a processor without charge pumps. That will be one of the next big steps.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 01/07/15 01/07/15
"You can't buy a rasberry Pi "off the shelf"
I have. You can.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
There may be differing definitions of "audiophool" in play in this thread. Hardcore objectivists have one definition, hard core subjectivists have another. There are also "fence straddlers" who use various definitions according to situation. If a fence straddler is promoting an idea or peddling a product, he will adjust his argumentation according to whether the "mark" is a subjectivist or an objectivist.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
shot down pretty quickly around here, and in IRL. "Audiophool" companies get exposed quickly, and are eliminated rather quickly.
The fact that you are not capable of citing any specific examples, also lends credence to the above.
Traditionally, superior audio playback has been exclusively hardware driven. Computer engineers, and computer manufacturers and designers have been varied in their goal of building multifunction devices that integrate both hardware, and software in order perform many functions. For this, and other reasons, computers have always sucked at superior audio playback.
I am happy to see companies like Bryston & Sim Audio, APL, and Sonore turn their attention toward digital file playback client devices: bringing to the table much needed expertise in that area.
I think that it is very, very, foolish for someone to refer to Sim Audio as a company who makes "audiophool" products, and/or any of their products.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I choose not to cite products and companies. Most of the information that I have is second hand and I'm not going to say bad things that hurt people without first hand knowledge. I have no problem badmouthing products based on public marketing information and I have done so on many occasions. Another reason not to be specific is that, in some cases, it would amount to personal attacks and that is not allowed according to forum rules. I am not going to be baited or entrapped into potential lawsuits, etc...
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
so on other words, I'm right and it doesn't happen...
Personal attacks and legal action aren't the conclusion of repeating examples of something that has already transpired, as you cannot be held liable for just repeating 'old news.'
And of course, none of the 5 products in question could possibly have anything remotely applicable.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
OK then, take the 'audiophool' word out of picture since it's not what is in question here.
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