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In Reply to: RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO posted by cics on May 05, 2008 at 12:31:58
Hi guys.
-dear (happy) cMP´ersThanks for your recommendations. Much appreciated. -and always helpful.
Really !However : Since the cMP² venture began with the slimming DLL`s, drivers and step 1-20.... things have become much more fragile and wobbly.
Especially our (limited) way of communication of following suit on our forum structure.
It´s almost impossible to recapture what´s going on when one gets behind.I miss (and I´m sure a lot of cMP followers too)that the development get´s summarized from time to time.
Problem is, that when one has missed out a detail, further "tweaks" become un-manageable because a detail might not be implemented from a previous tweak.
We have to address this somehow, and improve our communication skills in this development.
Otherwise it will get obsolete very quickly and only in the hands of very few only...
-This can hardly be in spirit of cics, who gave way for this incredible democratic high-end project.Any suggestions on this ??
kind regards Leif
cMP2 Computer w/digital crossovers & FIR filters > Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz all channels. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601´s ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
Edits: 08/15/12Follow Ups:
Hi Guys,
After almost 6 years of AOB and cmp(2) i decided to take another route and would like to thank you all for all i've learned.
Like Walter i changed from PCI to usb-i2s. I could not follow the last series of tweaks. I had great results with Jolida's iso and bitchbatch (@Jolida: i didn't respond because i used Juli@), but didn't manage to create time for further tweaks and experments.
This summer i changed to a usb-i2s/spdif interface, and PuppyLinuxMPD (mpdPup) as OS. I experimented with Alix, but chose an Asrock Atom board. Nice thing about mpdPup is that it loads via usb and than functions in memory. When it is started up, i pull the usb-stick. No HDD/SSD/whatever (well yes, there is one: in the NAS). Great sound, similar to Jolida's iso and Bitchbatch, BUT: streaming from NAS (very convenient) AND: i can play -yes- mp3 files!
A Raspberry Pi is waiting for further experiment this winter, when i planned to learn more about linux.Again: very very much thanks to you all!!
@ Greg in mississippi: since i do not use my Juli@ anymore: PM me your address and i will send it by mail.
Douwe
Edits: 09/10/12
Hi Douwe,
Right now I’m considering the same but for me it doesn’t feel as ‘Changing direction’. More like ‘moving on’.
Thankx too Cics cMP + cPlay project and the improvements suggested by other inmates I learned a lot. But I don’t like too severely cripple my XP installation close too dis-functionality.
So I’m now also looking at (puppy) linux distro’s geared towards audio. Unfortunately this only means: fully packed with software that is somehow related too recording and playback. So quantity over quality.
Untill now all these (puppy) Linux audio distro’s sound less too my ears than a fully ‘Steppe slimmed’ cMP+cPlay machine. But I still haven’t tried HQplayer from Signalyst on Linux yet
May be these linux audio distro’s can also be further optimized too equal of even pass the sound quality of a crippled cMP+cPlay machine.
Unfortunately untill now I still haven’t found a linux-audio forum on which inmates strive for real audiophile quality.
Do you know such forums or inmates on the net?
Mark
cMP2 PC > ESI Juli@ > Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII > Lavry Black DA10 > XLR Vovox Direct S > Klein & Hummel O300
Hi Mark,
Have you tried MPDPUP? Pretty well slimmed down, plus low latency core. I have posted some settings that to my ear take it to a good place.
If you have tried comparing linux .. specifically MPDPUP or if you have never tried it..
Take it for a test drive. The author just put up a new release 9.3. OMG!!
Really nice pop in quality. On my system a level never before contemplated.
My Alix/WaveIO/TDA1541A rig loves this new release. I am ready to take on vinyl challengers. Bring it on!
Hi Walter,
yes I'm almost ready getting there.
For half a year I already have a GA-D525TUD Atom mobo lying arround.
I used it too test if the hardware and chipset had better SQ than the standard socket 1155 cMP Gigabyte MoBo's.
I could not detect any differences. So I continued using the 1155 socket mobo with with Celeron processor.
Seeing you, Douwe and others moving on this summer, made me curious how this GA-D525TUD Atom mobo would sound on Puppy-Linux.
But I don’t want too highjack Cics cMP thread. So I’ll start a new thread ‘How too get best SQ from Puppy Linux’.
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=114482
So I continue in that thread.
Mark
cMP2 PC > ESI Juli@ > Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII > Lavry Black DA10 > XLR Vovox Direct S > Klein & Hummel O300
Sorry to se you move on (not for you but for me). Pls come back and let us know how you're doing from time to time. Good luck.
Hi Theo,
I’m not planning too leave the audioasylum. I just need a new challenge. There is no progression in the cMP thread any more. I expect not many new software tweaks. I also don’t t like too cripple XP untill it almost breaks down too get good SQ from it.
Reading Wlowes and Douwe10NL moving on too Puppy linux inspired me too do the same.
I now notthing about Linux. It’s al new too me. But may be I learn just as I learned from Cics cMP project.
I notice a gap between the Puppy Linux’s newbie forum and the audioasylum PCaudio forum. The newbie threads on the Puppy Linux are still way too complicated for me. I don’t understand what is writen.
May on the audioasylum I can start a thread too brigde that knowlegde gap. Kind of: ‘How to get best sound quality from Puppy Linux for dumm’s’.
I already got an enthousiastic reply from Wlowes. But (again), like on the Puppy Forum - it’s much too complicated / cryptic for me too understand it.
I plan too periodicly report what I’m doing and what my progress is. I hope other inmates will respond or follow into experiments with Puppy Linux. This way there is chance we will all learn how too setup a Puppy Linux Distro and get very good Sound Quality from it.
WLowes, Douwe10NL, and I believe also Ryelands, already toke the plunch this summer. I follow now. May more inmates like too follow if there a thread on the audioasylum.
Mark
cMP2 PC > ESI Juli@ > Van den Hul Optocoupler MkII > Lavry Black DA10 > XLR Vovox Direct S > Klein & Hummel O300
hfavandepas,
Have you explored mpdpup? It is designed to get you up and running without really learning linux. You will need to go through a relatively frustrating learning curve if you want to modify the various config files. mpdpup is a good way to get started without making changes and then read everything you can about beginners guides.
http://208.109.22.214/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=70052&sid=3d93dcb742a75f80aa0c8624ad187360
I did find a good manual describing the basic concepts of file system which i'd be happy to email.
My own experience with MpdPup is one of mind numbing frustration. I think that you probably need a very special mindset to figure it out. It’s supposed to be the simple route to linux-based audio, but I certainly couldn’t get to grips with it.
I’ve kind of given up on Linux as a possible direction because most of the stuff I’ve looked at is just way too flaky and seemingly dependant on the user being able to master a whole new language in order to comprehend the cryptic screen messages.
Cmp/Cplay still seems like a nice approach to me. What I think it needs is further development in areas like the user interface.
Douwe,Thanks for the bounty of a Juli@! I've responded separately. I'll hold it in reserve for someone who needs one (perhaps after a botched mod!).
Please don't be a stranger and keep us updated with what you're doing, especially your innovative HW mods.
I personally am also interested in what you're doing from a player perspective with PuppyLinuxMPD... and also your experience with an Alix board. I've been interested in trying some different player setups and have been looking at an Alix 1D (with PCI so I can use a powered-Juli@) to try as a headless NOS cMP player as well as a server for the Squeezebox Touch I recently bought and also as a PuppyLinuxMPD player. Maybe post your experiences in the 'Tuning Linux/MPD/Alsa for best sound on ALIX processor' thread? Or if you already put them somewhere else, point us to them.
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. I forgot to mention that with the latest slimming tweaks, the slimmed version that works with Juli@ is STUNNING!
Everything matters!
Edits: 09/15/12
Hi Greg
If you play with Alix, I'll point you to a couple of key tweaks that bring out the best. One inmate suggests the 1d over the 3d2 I use as it has bias control you would enjoy. I had good success with replacing a couple of caps and of course had to add some blackgates. Sounds like you have CMP really perfected. Interested in your comparison. Of course, stay clear of Alix if you want to upsample in real time. Now way it has power for SOX or SRC. It is strictly NOS.. fine by me as that is my preference but each ear is different. You should consider WaveIO with the Alix. You could reserect your 1541 dac + WaveIO as an alternate to current rig?
Hi guys,
I red your idea, I completely agree.
I have myself problems following some evolutions because I just don't have the time to be here every days and to test all the new tweaks.
In order to better communicate, I think It could be great to have a structured web site, like a wiki.
The project could be seen like an open source dev project where everybody can contribute on what he like.
I have in mind http://www.rockbox.org. This site is very well structured, with a lot of contributors from the rockbox community.
This is just a idea, but I hope you will succeed in it. For Myself I don't have the time to contribute, but why not a small financial contribution in order to help things.
Nicolas
Unfortunately, I saw this downhill slope coming many months ago. I warned that this slimming process had to be "organized".
Primary importance: cMP2 must remain a rock solid system working with ALL asio devices out there - PCI/e, FW e USB - therefore both in synchronous and asynchronous mode.
It is NOT possible to produce versions on different OS, or for one sound card only, or a cMP shell that can work in particular conditions only, no LAN, no USB...and think that most users are going to fall that path. All this process has extremely reduced the already scarce usability of cMP2 without a certain proof of increased SQ in controlled conditions.
OK, do you want me to follow that path and test the system?!
This is my suggestion: I install OS (WinXP SP2/3) and sound card (any one I like - PCI/e, FW o USB), you provide an EXE that installs the right cMP/cPlay, AND that makes all slimming and variations to the system providing exceptions for things like LAN or anything else I care to leave untouched. The system must work and be stable.
The EXE can then be developed and refined with further versions following people's input.
I had already made that EXE long long ago under the title of the "Bitch-Batch", but none seemed to provide me the exceptions of the files needed for their particular sound cards. All I got was just one or two responses with regards to Juli@ ( which is also what I used), & Lynx (if I remember ). So I gave up. I even remember sending the EXE to one inmate to test it, & funny he dint reply either :) so I gave up the idea of fine-tuning it to the various specs.. I had made it interactive, which asked the user about the soundcard & network usability & then proceeds with deletions etc. Too bad..
Junaid
Hi BiBo01,We certainly have to come up with a strategy on this.
My own feeling is that we ought to set off from a nLite reduced XP.
nLite offers the possibillity of define exactly which components can be taken out. This is done via an .ini file (easy to distribute Notepad-file)so that we at least all have the same set-off point.
The idea of an .ISO file has leagal problems, so that´s a no go.
We would also need to agree on some kind of a standard as to how the harddisk´s are to be configured.What I would like we could do, is to enroll the various steps in maybe 4 chapters.
Each communicating how the hives are changed and what elements (DLL & drivers) are to be moved/deleted.Maybe we should also look into a different webspace than the cPlay forum, as I could imagine a more convinent platform to operate such undertaking.
And we´ll need to find a webmaster for this (Serge ?).I really feel we ought to preserve this grandiose system and the development that started with some "belgian beer".
-despite that cics might be on a different chip/trip...kind regards
cMP2 Computer w/digital crossovers & FIR filters > Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz all channels. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601´s ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
Edits: 08/16/12
With all due respect there are folks on this forum with differing talents. You cant just assign responsibilities to others who may not share your priorities. For example Serge is undeniably the 'spear of the arrow' type. He is the leading/bleeding edge of unbelievable tweaks. I think he likes doing that and will probably continue to do that. I also hope Serge continues in this effort. Jack is very good at a completely new iso based system that I like to call Jwindows. Jack does what he wants to do and will continue this way. I also hope Jack continues in this effort. Others are very good at communication/clarity of language in describing the steps necessary to achieve certain levels of tweaking . In fact I know of at least 2 efforts to start a coordinated documentation of all this cplay/cmp stuff. But in both cases as far as I know both efforts never got out of the gate. Why this never happened is open to debate but I think some folks dont like being given assignments by others that are not aligned with what they like/want to do. So this will always be a difficult task. We are forever beholden to cics and others who participated in the creation of the cmp website. Now that was an acomplishment given all the potential roadblocks discussed above.
So what should an audiophile do? In the absence of an overall bullet proof website I submit one should ask questions on this forum to help get a discussion started to 'get at' the clarity we all seek.
Hey theob,
...I was not trying "to assign duties" in my post,and I very well aware of how difficult it is.
What I was trying express was that I think some of these "steps" are findings that others deserve to understand, even if someone is joining in at a later point, or not neccessary spend 5 hours a day on his cMP rig.
Plain: a summary
I think the way to get there is possible if a certain structure is agreed upon. We deal with DLL´s and drivers; we deal in changing/deleting stuff from the registry; and there are certain "tricks" in changing difficult-to-get-rid-of modules, right ?
Certain things are obvious stuff, and other things do alter the functionality.
If we had a platform and a structure, I´m pretty sure we could work it out. Maybe not to the fullest potential, but at least to gain a bit of ground.
Let me suggest to do a "copy&paste" document of the steps 1-8 and edit it to my understanding. Then proof-read it by a volunteer with some experience in this.
Often things get stuck in the complexsity and a too wide a scope.
I´m happy to put in some effort, but I can´t do it on my own....
kind regards
cMP2 Computer w/digital crossovers & FIR filters > Lynx Aurora 8 FireWire /192kHz all channels. 2x AcousticReality Ref. 202 & 2x AcousticReality Ref. 601´s ICEpower. Magnepan MG3.3R beechwood frames & custom stands. Miller chokes
No offence was meant ... so with that aside, sure I can help too. But somebody has to be the organizer. Are you that person? I know I will not be the organizer but will help where I can. But remember there are approaches taken here that some do not believe in. For example some have expressed not agreeing with the totality of what Serge recommended. I think it was Jolida who only believes in a subset of Serge's 22 steppes. How do you reconcile that with Serge, Jack, Serge Mihaylov approach? If this were a business and I was the program manager of this task I would know how to approach it. But for a volunteer, 'we dont really know each other' and 'sometimes disagree' this is tough. I still think that someone seeking info should ask questions right here on an 'as needed' basis. Generally those here are usually very helpful in that way.
Edits: 08/16/12
" For example some have expressed not agreeing with the totality of what Serge recommended. I think it was Jolida who only believes in a subset of Serge's 22 steppes. "
As in what..???
Junaid
Based on my memory you indicated that you felt stopping @ Steppe 6 was best for you. Also you had mentioned that your cd player was better than cmp^2. If something has changed I was not aware of it.
I believe Steppe intends to come out with a step-by-step guide of how to achieve a super slimmed cMP2.
I hope that it will be taken into account the possibility to mantain USB, FW or LAN!
Hi Play-mate,
Months ago when I asked to organize the tweaks I also offered the Italian cMP2 forum I represent. As a matter of fact, there I posted both the nLite XP Jolida version and a few "super tweaks" by Steppe which many people are happily using.
However, here a few users wanted to continue along the "wild" experimental route, others wanted to organize but did not deliver.
I personally felt that a lot of effort was spent by Steppe and others on not verifiable results as real improvements and not just simple side steps. For example, the use of nLite XP version gives different results with different sound cards when used as DACs.
With no measurements of any kind on noise, jitter or differences on the analog outputs, it's all too empirical!
That's why I said - give me an EXE. A before and after situation can be measured. A tweak no.69 that is good only when tweak 4-8, 25-31 and 45-51 are implemented, has no use to me - period!
Sorry if I sound too aggressive. I care for this project and I put a lot of effort in helping people to know it and appreciate it.
I would still like to see effort put in the development of cMP shell, in cPlay's better asio compatibility and DSD playback.
I agree totally!
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