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In Reply to: RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly posted by soundchekk on July 07, 2012 at 07:07:46
We couldn't use the Xmoss chip in this design as it draws too much power and the footprint is larger then what we would allow based on the industrial design objective.
There isn't a plan to make a V2 anytime soon as we (being AudioQuest and Gordon Rankin) do not feel the need to go beyond 96k on this particular product.
I guess if I explain the motivation behind this product the final result might make more sense.
For years I worked at Ayre Acoustics. It was one of the most amazing professional periods in my life. I learned more from Charlie an Ariel then I could have learned anywhere else. The products that Ayre turned out are amazing. The only problem (for me) was that none of my friends outside of hi-end could relate to them. I mean if you think about just the entry level Ayre system, an AX-7e and a QB-9, and then add in reasonable cables and some good full-range speakers its a 10k to 12k system. That's a lot of money! Even a system we all think of as "entry-level" is just so hard for most people to justify.
I really want to make products that a larger audience can relate to, and at the same time make something that I, or any of my audiophile friends would enjoy listening through. Bill Low, the founder and owner of AudioQuest (and everyone else at AudioQuest for that matter) has been extremely supportive of this idea. I'd say Bill may be more stoked about it then I am!
Prior to shipping the DragonFly Joe Harley, Shane Buettner, and myself spent a lot of time visiting dealers and distributors all over the world. In fact, at the beginning of the year I spent three weeks in Asia visiting distributors with a one-off sample of the final design. We wanted to be sure that this would be a product that could stand up to scrutiny. Everyone that listened to it gave us feedback we got was very positive.
The components we chose inside were all for good reason. right out of the gate we're limited to the 5v output from a USB port. So, we had to be judicious and economical with power consumption. The 1020B really fit the bill. We also didn't want supplementary battery supplies for this particular product. We wanted it to be completely plug-and-play. No fuss. Also, we had a very specific footprint and industrial design in mind. Again, the 1020B fit into this objective.
The bigger picture is this; there are a ton of people out there who've ripped their CD's into iTunes, they stream music from Spotify and Mog and YouTube, and they're having fun. This is a great product for anyone living in this world. But its also a great sounding, reasonably priced product for anyone aspiring to build an affordable system, or for anyone (like me) that likes having a supplemental DAC for taking on the road or using in the office with a small integrated amp and a pair of killer desktop speakers. It is meant to be a fun, affordable, and a good sounding device. I think we accomplished all of this.
Now I can't spill all of the beans but I'll tell you this - DragonFly isn't the last product of this ilk we're going to make. Gordon and the gang at AudioQuest have a bunch of designs on the table and in the works. All of the products will be small, portable, and potent for their size.
If you're curious find a local dealer (we have over 600) who has one in stock and borrow it overnight. You might like it, you might love it, you might just think its so-so, but at least you'll have first hand experience.
Best regards,
Steve Silberman
AudioQuest
Follow Ups:
Hi Steve.
Nice try. Lot of text.
Bottom line:
1. Plug'n play are all driverless USB audio devices
2. Hiface II gotta a similar footprint and uses XMOS. They even
managed to get a reasonable jack into that device.
3. High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff
will face a pretty tough future.
4. Spotfiy and mp3 users will be happy with the iOS devices output
quality. Those devices are not even supported.
5. Taking design decisions based on dealer feedback I consider a pretty
risky undertaking. My experience with dealers is that the majority
doesn't really know what they are doing, when it comes to PC based
audio. What counts for them is the margin vs. sales effort.
A product like a Dragonfly is a typical online product. It doesn't need a dealer-chain. You'd better ask the crowd about their priorities.
You could have saved thousands of $ for your extensive trips around
the world and put the device into the 150$ league instead.
And beside that community feedback would have been more valuable.
Not to forget you seem to ignore that there is competition out there.
6. IMO your typical target group owns already 2 audio devices in
average. You really need to explain why they need to buy a 3rd one.
I do think you got my point. Obviously all issues I brought up have been
brought up while you were designing the product. I just mentioned the basic stuff of course. I didn't even go into into detail about internal
Sabre clocking schemes ( synchronous vs. asychronous etc.) asf. The Sabre DAC is the most discussed and tweaked DAC in the DIY audio world since I guess 3-4 years.
There are no real secrets anymore about what makes that DAC sound good or average.
My point is not to critizise your device, when it comes to sound quality.
People like Mercman are kind of trustworthy (always with a marketing flavor around their posts of course).
I think I made clear that I do have a feeling that you guys lack certain features what the addressed market segment might feel to be mandatory for a device at 250$.
Anyhow. Good luck with your product.
I might borrow one device. That's what I usually do, to get an idea about the devices potential. What might prevent me to do so is the mini-jack - which requires a quality cable or a quality adapter. And of course the lack of iPad support.
Cheers
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
"High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff
will face a pretty tough future:If anything, their future looks bright as more people are moving over to computer audio. Concerning Wavelength Audio products:
The Cosecant and Crimson are modular designs. Future upgrades are easily performed in-field. As was the case when I moved from a Phillips TDA 1543A to a Wolfson dac chip to an ESS Sabre.
Edits: 07/08/12
My 50$ Full Digital AMP ( + a little tweaking) sounds better then any of the high price DAC/AMP combos I listened to.
I fully understand your position though.
And I fully understand that people who bought and sell high price stuff
argue against my position. On one hand it's an emotional issue on the other hand it's a business issue.
Enjoy your fancy stuff.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
"1. Plug'n play are all driverless USB audio devices"
There are no "driverless" devices. All have drivers. The only issue is whether those drivers come bundled with a particular version of a particular operating system.
"3. High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff will face a pretty tough future."
HIgh Price DACs exist to provide higher quality audio at a price. They are higher cost for good reason, and it isn't primarily the chips. Whether they are "cost effective" depends on many factors, including the size of the customer's budget. Advancing technology won't change the situation, because the same advanced technology will be available to the higher end manufacturers. Of course it is well known and proven in referred journals that all DACs sound alike. Since the mid 1980's we've all enjoyed "perfect sound forever".
There are benefits that a customer gets from using a specialized driver. The biggest one is the possibility of completely bypassing the baroque audio stack supplied by most operating system vendors. Just for peace of mind this makes a lot of sense to critical listeners who have some degree of technical competence when it comes to computer audio. (That's assuming these drivers are robust. Some are, some are not.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Nonsense.Todays high Price devices highest cost factors go into enclosure, marketing, and dealer margin.
All that can be marketed because the old generation still believes in "audiophile" brands and got plenty of money to play with.Compared to above the cost associated to the technology itself becomes neglectable.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
Edits: 07/08/12 07/08/12
"The biggest one is the possibility of completely bypassing the baroque audio stack supplied by most operating system vendors."Damien has released Beta 1.3.9.4 Audirvana Plus with improved stability for Direct Mode/Integer for OSX Lion. The results of bypassing Core Audio processing are stunning. Best of all, all of this works with the standard OSX USB driver.
Edits: 07/08/12 07/08/12 07/08/12
Mercman:> Audirvana Plus with improved stability for Direct Mode/Integer for OSX Lion.
Doesn't Direct Mode/Integer work on Audirvana Free also?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
.
"The results of bypassing Core Audio processing are stunning"
You can say the latest version of the software is stunning in your system......
You cannot conclusively say why.
.
The latest version doesn't sound any different from the previous version. It's just more stable. I was speaking about Direct Mode/Integer for OSX Lion in general terms. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about this.
Thanks for the good explanation of the philosophy. You brought a personal element to the explanation that I enjoyed reading.
You may never get a sale from soundchekk but I'm sure you will do well otherwise.
---
I know Charles Hansen only from forum posts and some email conversations but I think highly of him.
Bill
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