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In Reply to: RE: More Comments on the Audioquest DragonFly posted by Mercman on July 04, 2012 at 14:08:47
Hi Gang-
Boy this thread got heated. The DragonFly was built with the intent that it would be simple to use and require no additional drivers. This is part of the reason we decided to limit the sampling rate to 96K. In order to go beyond that Windows users would have to download a third party driver. This isn't something we think that we want to send the majority of our customers off to do.
Additionally, we decided to use the TAS 1020B and not the XMOSS chip because of size and power consumption. The 1020B is limited to 96K.
Other elements of the design mandate were that the unit had to operate from bus power, sound great, and be simple to use. adding external power supplies would have been a no-go. It would have ruined the intent of the product which is to bring great sound to a wide audience.
DragonFly will not work with any iOS device because it draws too much power. Keep in mind we are working on a device specifically for iOS and for Android called HummingBird and BumbleBee (respectively). These devices will also be asynchronous USB. They will also have rechargeable batteries built in so that they will not draw too much from the iOS and Droids. They should be available sometime early next year. That's all I can tell you for now.
Best regards,
Steve Silberman
AudioQuest
Follow Ups:
'This is part of the reason we decided to limit the sampling rate to 96K. In order to go beyond that Windows users would have to download a third party driver. This isn't something we think that we want to send the majority of our customers off to do.'
Excellent point and one which I have raised several times due to posts here and elsewhere where users get into significant setup difficulties. Other makers, of course, deny that there are any issues.
Are there copyright difficulties for bundling your own software for Windows? This is the answer from other makers and I would buy a Dragon Fly if it would do 24/192.
1. Nothing got heated up. Just some of the weak spots based on the communicated feature
set of your device were brought to the table.
This is an open forum btw..
"Heat" obviously is what you guys feel when reading those comments.
Good to see that you feel the heat.
2. The TAS1020B is an outdated device. Period.
The limiations are known since years.
Beside that it requires serious tweaking of the transport to get away
from PC originated distortions. You'll find an estimated 4-5 years
record about it over here at AA.
3. With e.g. state-of -the-art XMOS you could have run up2 96khz
without driver.
If you want 192 you'd need a driver on Windows only. Though you could
still run 96khz without it. You wouldn't loose anything.
On OSX and Linux you don't need a driver to run 192.
The limitation comes with your choice of interface chip.
BTW: A similar sized device -- Hiface II -- is running XMOS nowadays.
4. If you consider battery supplies for iOS devices. Why not on the
Dragonfly?? I'm not aware of any USB device which wouldn't have
shown serious improvements when taken away from bus power.
You'll find numerous posts about that here and elsewhere.
The best option obviously is a battery supply. We've seen that
on many implementations. There are also many devices which allow
bus and external power. Technically this is absolutely no problem.
On your device a micro-jack for an optional external 5V supply
would have been sufficant.
5. iPads usually work if you put a powered USB-HUB in between.
I made several DAC devices working this way. I'd be surprised if
the Dragonfly wouldn't work this way.
Consider these kind of discussions as constructive feedback
towards the community.
In these kind of marketing threads, there's IMO a need to discuss Pro's AND Con's.
For sure there'll be a V2 of Dragonfly. And for sure there'll be some people who'll buy your V1 device...
...even after such a HOT discussion.
Good luck.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
We couldn't use the Xmoss chip in this design as it draws too much power and the footprint is larger then what we would allow based on the industrial design objective.
There isn't a plan to make a V2 anytime soon as we (being AudioQuest and Gordon Rankin) do not feel the need to go beyond 96k on this particular product.
I guess if I explain the motivation behind this product the final result might make more sense.
For years I worked at Ayre Acoustics. It was one of the most amazing professional periods in my life. I learned more from Charlie an Ariel then I could have learned anywhere else. The products that Ayre turned out are amazing. The only problem (for me) was that none of my friends outside of hi-end could relate to them. I mean if you think about just the entry level Ayre system, an AX-7e and a QB-9, and then add in reasonable cables and some good full-range speakers its a 10k to 12k system. That's a lot of money! Even a system we all think of as "entry-level" is just so hard for most people to justify.
I really want to make products that a larger audience can relate to, and at the same time make something that I, or any of my audiophile friends would enjoy listening through. Bill Low, the founder and owner of AudioQuest (and everyone else at AudioQuest for that matter) has been extremely supportive of this idea. I'd say Bill may be more stoked about it then I am!
Prior to shipping the DragonFly Joe Harley, Shane Buettner, and myself spent a lot of time visiting dealers and distributors all over the world. In fact, at the beginning of the year I spent three weeks in Asia visiting distributors with a one-off sample of the final design. We wanted to be sure that this would be a product that could stand up to scrutiny. Everyone that listened to it gave us feedback we got was very positive.
The components we chose inside were all for good reason. right out of the gate we're limited to the 5v output from a USB port. So, we had to be judicious and economical with power consumption. The 1020B really fit the bill. We also didn't want supplementary battery supplies for this particular product. We wanted it to be completely plug-and-play. No fuss. Also, we had a very specific footprint and industrial design in mind. Again, the 1020B fit into this objective.
The bigger picture is this; there are a ton of people out there who've ripped their CD's into iTunes, they stream music from Spotify and Mog and YouTube, and they're having fun. This is a great product for anyone living in this world. But its also a great sounding, reasonably priced product for anyone aspiring to build an affordable system, or for anyone (like me) that likes having a supplemental DAC for taking on the road or using in the office with a small integrated amp and a pair of killer desktop speakers. It is meant to be a fun, affordable, and a good sounding device. I think we accomplished all of this.
Now I can't spill all of the beans but I'll tell you this - DragonFly isn't the last product of this ilk we're going to make. Gordon and the gang at AudioQuest have a bunch of designs on the table and in the works. All of the products will be small, portable, and potent for their size.
If you're curious find a local dealer (we have over 600) who has one in stock and borrow it overnight. You might like it, you might love it, you might just think its so-so, but at least you'll have first hand experience.
Best regards,
Steve Silberman
AudioQuest
Hi Steve.
Nice try. Lot of text.
Bottom line:
1. Plug'n play are all driverless USB audio devices
2. Hiface II gotta a similar footprint and uses XMOS. They even
managed to get a reasonable jack into that device.
3. High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff
will face a pretty tough future.
4. Spotfiy and mp3 users will be happy with the iOS devices output
quality. Those devices are not even supported.
5. Taking design decisions based on dealer feedback I consider a pretty
risky undertaking. My experience with dealers is that the majority
doesn't really know what they are doing, when it comes to PC based
audio. What counts for them is the margin vs. sales effort.
A product like a Dragonfly is a typical online product. It doesn't need a dealer-chain. You'd better ask the crowd about their priorities.
You could have saved thousands of $ for your extensive trips around
the world and put the device into the 150$ league instead.
And beside that community feedback would have been more valuable.
Not to forget you seem to ignore that there is competition out there.
6. IMO your typical target group owns already 2 audio devices in
average. You really need to explain why they need to buy a 3rd one.
I do think you got my point. Obviously all issues I brought up have been
brought up while you were designing the product. I just mentioned the basic stuff of course. I didn't even go into into detail about internal
Sabre clocking schemes ( synchronous vs. asychronous etc.) asf. The Sabre DAC is the most discussed and tweaked DAC in the DIY audio world since I guess 3-4 years.
There are no real secrets anymore about what makes that DAC sound good or average.
My point is not to critizise your device, when it comes to sound quality.
People like Mercman are kind of trustworthy (always with a marketing flavor around their posts of course).
I think I made clear that I do have a feeling that you guys lack certain features what the addressed market segment might feel to be mandatory for a device at 250$.
Anyhow. Good luck with your product.
I might borrow one device. That's what I usually do, to get an idea about the devices potential. What might prevent me to do so is the mini-jack - which requires a quality cable or a quality adapter. And of course the lack of iPad support.
Cheers
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
"High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff
will face a pretty tough future:If anything, their future looks bright as more people are moving over to computer audio. Concerning Wavelength Audio products:
The Cosecant and Crimson are modular designs. Future upgrades are easily performed in-field. As was the case when I moved from a Phillips TDA 1543A to a Wolfson dac chip to an ESS Sabre.
Edits: 07/08/12
My 50$ Full Digital AMP ( + a little tweaking) sounds better then any of the high price DAC/AMP combos I listened to.
I fully understand your position though.
And I fully understand that people who bought and sell high price stuff
argue against my position. On one hand it's an emotional issue on the other hand it's a business issue.
Enjoy your fancy stuff.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
"1. Plug'n play are all driverless USB audio devices"
There are no "driverless" devices. All have drivers. The only issue is whether those drivers come bundled with a particular version of a particular operating system.
"3. High Price Ayre and Wavelength devices incl. Streamlenght stuff will face a pretty tough future."
HIgh Price DACs exist to provide higher quality audio at a price. They are higher cost for good reason, and it isn't primarily the chips. Whether they are "cost effective" depends on many factors, including the size of the customer's budget. Advancing technology won't change the situation, because the same advanced technology will be available to the higher end manufacturers. Of course it is well known and proven in referred journals that all DACs sound alike. Since the mid 1980's we've all enjoyed "perfect sound forever".
There are benefits that a customer gets from using a specialized driver. The biggest one is the possibility of completely bypassing the baroque audio stack supplied by most operating system vendors. Just for peace of mind this makes a lot of sense to critical listeners who have some degree of technical competence when it comes to computer audio. (That's assuming these drivers are robust. Some are, some are not.)
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Nonsense.Todays high Price devices highest cost factors go into enclosure, marketing, and dealer margin.
All that can be marketed because the old generation still believes in "audiophile" brands and got plenty of money to play with.Compared to above the cost associated to the technology itself becomes neglectable.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
Edits: 07/08/12 07/08/12
"The biggest one is the possibility of completely bypassing the baroque audio stack supplied by most operating system vendors."Damien has released Beta 1.3.9.4 Audirvana Plus with improved stability for Direct Mode/Integer for OSX Lion. The results of bypassing Core Audio processing are stunning. Best of all, all of this works with the standard OSX USB driver.
Edits: 07/08/12 07/08/12 07/08/12
Mercman:> Audirvana Plus with improved stability for Direct Mode/Integer for OSX Lion.
Doesn't Direct Mode/Integer work on Audirvana Free also?
~~~
The Driver smiled when he lost the car in pursuit...
.
"The results of bypassing Core Audio processing are stunning"
You can say the latest version of the software is stunning in your system......
You cannot conclusively say why.
.
The latest version doesn't sound any different from the previous version. It's just more stable. I was speaking about Direct Mode/Integer for OSX Lion in general terms. I'm sorry I wasn't clear about this.
Thanks for the good explanation of the philosophy. You brought a personal element to the explanation that I enjoyed reading.
You may never get a sale from soundchekk but I'm sure you will do well otherwise.
---
I know Charles Hansen only from forum posts and some email conversations but I think highly of him.
Bill
.
When you are segmenting the market to determine what features to offer your customers you have to look at what they want and need, not what a few people who hang out on internet forums want. It looks to me like AQ made the following decisions and I agree with them.
2. The vast majority of potential customers don't care what is inside it and wouldn't understand if you told them.
3. The vast majority of potential customers don't care about anything above CD quality and many will use it only with MP3.
4. The vast majority of potential customers don't want to deal with the hassle of a battery or external supply.
You are obviously not part of their target market but that doesn't mean they made a mistake. It would appear they decided that the mix of features they are offering will appeal to their target market and that adding what you want would only increases cost and would actually make it less appealing.
.
Look."Vast majority" needs to be defined first.
Vast majority is a whatever market share of a certain market segment.
Such a product tries to address those people which do care
about a good quality sound from a PC, actually from a portable PC.If I'd be marketing manager at AQ it would have been too risky for me to go after this particular segment. It is flooded with devices. And the AQ differentiators are almost neglectable.
As we learned today there will be another product launchned "next year" which addresses iOS and comes with battery supply.
It is obviously known to those guys at AQ that the Dragonfly is not the final answer to the adresssable market and demands out there. It's their first shot.I mean. It's so obvious to anybody who understands a little bit about marketing.
I btw do consider it a wrong move by AQ to come up with a seperate iOS product next year. I'm pretty sure that the market wants "a one size fits all" product.
Next year they'll tell the Dragonfly customers to buy that new iOS audio interface, which comes with certain features that I mentioned were lacking today.I could imagine that some people might feel a little fooled about this. They suddenly need to buy and carry two AQ devices. But. Who cares about another 250$. 250$ - it's pocket money. Not worth discussing.
Enjoy.
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::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 3.0 and more ::: by soundcheck
Edits: 07/07/12
"I btw do consider it a wrong move by AQ to come up with a seperate iOS product next year. I'm pretty sure that the market wants "a one size fits all" product. "
You are so correct!!! That is why they also only make one cable for everyone!!! Why should we need anymore... LOL
They know exactly what thy are doing, sell a well designed, very good sounding product for a fair price. IMO the pedigree of it places it above others in the market segment. That is why they did it.
.
"I mean. It's so obvious to anybody who understands a little bit about marketing."
I know a little bit.... and I really can't imagine the ability to play 192K and DSD files or the type of chip it uses are determining dimensions for portable DAC shoppers in the $250 range, but you obviously think you know more about AQs target market than they do so it has become a dead horse.
I won't beat it anymore.
,
I see lots of companies bringing out products like the DragonFly. I visited Amazon this morning and got the suggestions shown in the image.
HRT, Centrance and other companies have already brought out variants for laptops and iDevices. You may feel the market is over-crowded but those companies don't.
Audioengine and Peachtree are other companies targeting a wider set of customers than the audiophiles that post here. They seem to be having success.
Bill
Interesting take on some of the products you listed Bill.
Yes, I watched the video.
I'm happy to have good choices at various price levels. Then I have to decide how much I need to spend to satisfy my needs.
Bill
convenient cheap access to music they choose. Hi-res. is not relevant to them.
There are threads on a number of audio forums about the Dragonfly. I'd say it is getting lots of interest and will do well.
Good post, bwb. Don't use up your store of sanity on this forum, though.
Bill
What I found most fascinating about the DragonFly is that it is extremely musical and not just a little portable dac. It is obviously not an attempt at state-of-the-art performance, but an easy to use device that actually honors the music.But to be honest, I really loved the glow of the DragonFly's sample rate indicator.
Edits: 07/06/12
I read the comment earlier today about the iPad not working due to power draw and it occurred to me that the DragonFly isn't that much bigger than a 9V battery. And here you go mentioning a future battery powered device...
Anyway, props go to Audioquest for bringing the DragonFly and future iOS/Android products to this market. I, for one, appreciate the effort and any new offerings in this area.
Steve, Thanks for the clear information. The DragonFly sounds like a great product to reach a lot of music lowers / audiophiles.
> Boy this thread got heated.
Seems to happen to most threads on this forum now.
> Keep in mind we are working on a device specifically for iOS
> and for Android called HummingBird and BumbleBee (respectively).
Perhaps you could make one with a big linear power supply for home use and call it BigBird. Then one especially for members of this forum called AngryBird.
Bill
nt
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Thanks for the info....I take it that the new products will also use the Sabre chip.
Anyways good job and great product.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
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