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In Reply to: RE: cPlay - the open source high-end audio player using ASIO posted by cics on May 05, 2008 at 12:31:58
Now that I have achieved a Jackwindows system (16mb windows and 32kb system hive) this tweak adds significantly to this already great sounding system. It is simply putting all the cues in a folder (call it cues) on your data disk(s) then setting your cmp to only look at this folder within your data disk(s). With this arrangement cmp is only storing cues (very small in size) versus storing cues and wav files (very large in size). This tweak was originally identified by Ryelands and is still an easy one to implement. The only work is putting an absolute path into the cue file on the file line. So for example lets say you have a cue file with this line and your data disk is the D drive.
File 'amos lee.wav' wave
It simply needs to be amended to
File 'd:\amos lee.wav' wave.
Try it on a few cues then amend your cmp settings to only point to the cue folder...you may be surprised.
Follow Ups:
this result. It has been said that all the cues addressed in the cMP library window are retained in memory. My library comprises 2221 albums. The size of my separate cue folder is 5.6MB. So that is the most that could be occupying RAM during playback. But from what I observe it appears to me that only the cue file names are kept in memory not the entire content of all the cue files. I have this impression because sometimes a new cue file won't play in cPlay due to some error in it. I edit this cue file on my network drive from my desktop computer while that cue is already loaded into cMP with all the others, then I double-click the same entry in cMP and now it plays in cPlay. Doesn't this have to mean that when selected in cMP the cue contents are called up anew by cPlay from the changed file not from the original content of the file in memory, meaning the original content was not in memory?
. . . it appears to me that only the cue file names are kept in memory not the entire content of all the cue filesI tested this by pointing cMP to a cuefile on my "server", editing the cuefile then launching it from cMP without hitting "Refresh". The edited file played fine and the changes I made were displayed correctly. IOW, it appears to me that you're absolutely right - thanks for the correction.
Edits: 04/11/12
You are welcome. So, "how do you explain" the difference in sound knowing that?
And what does IOW stand for?
how do you explain the difference in sound . . .
Not having used cMP's UI for selecting files for many years, I only have the word of others that there is a difference. As to why, I haven't a clue.
what does IOW stand for?
In Other Words
You may be right but how do you also explain that putting all cues on the ssd c drive is better sonically than all the cues on a data drive?
There may be a simple rationale but in the interim I'll leave all my cues on the ssd.
That was my point. It doesn't seem to have to do with how much ram is occupied with cue data. I can't explain either why a single cue sounds better or why many cues on the ssd sounds better than many on an external drive, which I also find to be true and which clearly does not differ as to how much ram is occupied. I have used them on the ssd for a long time but actually have reverted for most of the time to keeping them on the network drive with the music files because it is far more convenient--no continual updating of the cues on the ssd as music is acquired and ability to edit cues while in cMP without transfers.
I have never done it any other way and have described this way here many times. It is faster and better though to put the folder containing all the cue files referencing the data drive on the cmp drive. This way when cmp starts it loads much faster and Ryelands first reported that it sounds better this way than having the cues folder on the data drive, though it means updating the cues folder frequently as more albums are acquired. Keeping it on the data drive means it is up to date always as cues are created.
Also, Al Jordan's recursive cuesheet creator can be set to automatically create cues with absolute paths for your whole library in a separate cues folder--Steppe take note. You can leave the relative path cues in place with each album, if you want, or search the library for cue files and delete them all at once and use only the separated cues.
Whether the music files are in memory or not (the logic is strong that they are not) it still makes a difference apims (as perceived in my system)if the cues only are in a separate folder and cmp only points to it.If you only have one cue being pointed to it makes a bigger difference yes. But in my current setup I have anywhere from 250 -500 cues per disc (discs are 160-320 gb)with 3 different discs. Since in my current setup I can only have 1 disc at a time in cmp it is good ....apims. When I was running windows xp pro with a 350 kb system hive the system sounded better when only one disc was loaded. So for me it is no problem to have only one disc at a time loaded. This is one of the advantages of having a network whereby you can truly minimize how many cues/discs cmp works with. I guess one could reload explorer then do it per the ryelands method. One has to assess whether adding explorer and whatever else may be required to do this degrades sq less than the added benefit of the 'one cue at a time' method.
Edits: 04/09/12
Well maybe you were the 1st then. Kudos to you.
This tweak was originally identified by Ryelands . . .
Hmmmm. Not by this Ryelands, it wasn't. Not quite.
I've never advocated having all of a library's cuefiles in one folder though my original motivation for not doing so that was that I couldn't work with cMP's UI. I still can't but I now also think that browsing for data should not be performed by the music player or shell for "sound quality" reasons.
1. To clarify, by "absolute cuefile" I mean one whose text includes the full path to the target data (e.g. M:\Jazz\Duke Ellington\Duke Ellington - 1960 - Piano in the Background\01 - Duke Ellington - Happy go lucky Local.flac) and by "relative" I mean one that has the filename only. Obviously, the latter must sit in the same folder as its data;
2. As we all know, when "cMP" is selected in cPlay's settings dialogue, the player loses its browsing capability and is launched by clicking on a target cuefile in cMP's main window;
3. cMP sees cuefiles only; it does not load music data into RAM though it does load every cuefile in the "watched" folders selected in cMP's Folder > Add dialogue. The watched folders are scanned at boot time and when the "Refresh" button is hit. If there are many relative cuefiles, this can, as riboge notes, take several minutes. If the files are absolute and all in one location, it is significantly faster;
4. That this is how the two programs work is shown by cuefiles that "point" to data that are in fact missing. The error is recognised only when cPlay is launched, not before. It follows that cMP does not load music data or check cuefile integrity (there being no compelling reason why it should);
5. However cMP is configured, "watching" a large number of cuefiles eats up significant RAM, in my case (a medium-sized collection of a little over 6,000 albums), probably about 30 MB. Even for a small collection, it's unlikely to be less than an MB or two.
Given the heroic efforts of pioneer "slimmers" to reduce OS footprint, it seems to me worthwhile to see how this footprint might also be reduced. Ideally, cMP should load the target cuefile (typically < 10 KB) only;
6. The easiest way to do that is, it seems to me, to copy the target cuefile only to the one folder that cMP is configured to "watch", to use cMP's "Refresh" facility to recognise when the file is changed and to delete the file once play is finished. Obviously, the files have to be absolute but such are easily written with AJ's "CueFileCreator";
7. It's certainly easy (better, in my view) to work this way in a networked cMP setup without loss of SQ. I'm not sure that it's quite as simple on an isolated cMP2 box where Sonic Trappists have long since sacrificed File Explorer in pursuit of SQ (OK, OK, I'm one of them). If anyone's interested, I'll happily explain how I do it but, if no-one is (fair enough) I'll not bother.
Dave
Hello, please tell us.
Serge.
That might be misunderstood but I'll assume it's audio we're discussing . . .What follows describes how I configured my "headless" cMP2-with-networking setup to ensure that cMP never needs to load more than one cuefile into memory.
I developed the scheme (which went through several different permutations but which I haven't changed for over a year now) to get round cMP's restrictive UI which IMHO is simply not up to handling a medium-to-large library. It was only later, after a series of exchanges with theob, that its sound quality advantages became clear. Well, to him at least - I don't really have anything to compare it with.
My music library resides on a shared drive on a desktop "server" which I also use to run my two cMP2 boxes. It should not be hard to adapt the routine for different scenarios as it relies on nothing more than cuefiles with absolute paths (which many already use in any case), a few shortcuts and a little batch file.
++++
1. If you don't already have one, create a library of cuefiles with absolute paths separate from main music library (the boring bit).
Tip 1: use Xcopy /T in a command window quickly to replicate the source library's directory structure and the "Set Output Folder" facility in AJ's CueSheetCreator to create cuefiles with abolute paths.
Tip 2: Use TextCrawler to edit cuefiles in bulk if e.g. you move them to a different drive or just screw up.
Tip 3: use the same character (typically M:) for the desktop's drive letter and the cMP2's network share so that the cuefiles are valid on both.
Tip 4: be sure to make regular backups of the new cuefiles.
2. Create a folder called M:\00. You later set cMP to "watch" this folder, i.e. to load its contents on boot or after a "Refresh".
3. The cuefile library is not seen by the cMP2 box and can sit anywhere on the desktop box. Browse it to select an album and copy its cuefile to M:\00.
Tip 1: for easy browsing, create a series of shortcuts to your library and put them in a separate folder called (e.g. and with imagination) "Music". This folder acts as a proxy for the cMP UI with the benefit that it doesn't depend on accurate tags to maintain structural integrity, is under the user's control and, crucially, doesn't gobble up resources on the cMP2 box.
Create a shortcut to it, give it a distinctive icon (so you can find it quickly) and put it on the QuickLaunch bar. To browse, click on the icon, select your cuefile, right-click on it and use SendTo to copy it to M:\00. Pictures H/W. You can then close the Explorer window.
Tip 2: create a batch file called "00-ClearList" (the 00 bit ensuring it appears at the top of the window) that reads "Del M:\00\*.cue /s". Put it in the same folder as your shortcuts - see above. Double-click on it to remove cuefiles from M:\00 for albums you have finished playing.Tip 3: create a shortcut to M:\00 and put it the "Send To" menu - set Explorer to show hidden files and put the shortcut in the user's SendTo folder in "Documents and Settings".
4. In cMP's "Settings" dialogue, clear the "watched folders" list and add M:\00 to it.
Tip 1: to avoid any error messages on caused by cMP not seeing any cuefiles (e.g. before logging on), create a dummy cuefile, put it in C:\ and add C:\ to the watched folders list. To make a dummy file, copy these lines into Notepad:
REM GENRE 0
REM DATE
PERFORMER " "
TITLE " "
FILE "Theme.flac" WAVE
TRACK 01 AUDIO
TITLE "1"
PERFORMER "2"
INDEX 01 00:00:00and save the file as Dummy.cue. At about 150 bytes, it can safely be assumed to have no effect on SQ.
5. Back on the cMP2 box, even after you replace a cuefile in M:\00, cMP still reports it (demonstrating again that it does indeed hold cuefiles in RAM). Click Refresh to lose the old cuefile and make the new one visible; play it as normal.
I quickly got used to this routine and find it faster and easier than messing about with cMP's UI. Aside from any SQ benefits (for which I have only theob's word as I haven't used the cMP UI for years), I do not intend to return to the old way.
Anyone interested in trying it is welcome to come back with questions where my notes are not clear.
Now, off to Evensong . . . Trappists have no time to gossip.
Dave
Edits: 04/08/12 04/08/12
Thank You!
Serge.
Tell, please.
Dying of suspense here.
Expecting your normal clever, lucid directions... don't disapoint!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
hello, Ted! Hello, everybody, Just like You had suggested BEFORE, I tried to do the following:
I renamed all my 5 folders, containing my library and made an experimental 001 folder with only one album folder inside:
D:\001\Diana Krall\The Look Of Love. Started cmp with a single cue.
The quality gain was great.
But now to Your current tweak. Do I only have to point to drive C: or do I have to change the line for EVERY ONE of my 10 000 songs like below:
FILE "D:\RIP\CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL\1970 Cosmo's Factory\06 Run Through the Jungle.wav" WAVE
If that's the matter, I'm afraid this tweak is not for me, unless I'll reRIP all my library...
Serge.
But the tweak WILL WORK, especially, if You have cue files pointing to smth like Image.wav
I'm afraid this tweak is not for me, unless I'll reRIP all my libraryYou don't need to re-rip any data to implement this routine though you do need to re-create your cuefiles to use the same routine as me. How long that would take obviously depends on how many albums you have but, for a thousand or less, I reckon it'd take a couple of hours including getting the hang of Al Jordan's CueSheetCreator.
But I really do owe grovelling apologies all round. There is another perfectly viable routine which I'd completely forgotten about which would at least allow you to try the idea at length without changing anything and may well be (as the adverts say) all you ever need.
Using cMP's Settings > Add/Remove Folders dialogue, temporarily clear the watched folders list then browse to and Add the folder - and only the folder - containing the target cuefile (and, of course, the music files though cMP doesn't see those). Repeat this every time you select an album.
If you don't have a relative cuefile in each album folder, CueSheetCreator can create them in, literally, minutes with almost no intervention. Point it to your music library's root folder, deselect "Use Custom Output Directory" and then hit "Process Library". You're done - a realtive cuefile in every folder. (To remove them, open a command window in the root directory and run: Del *.cue /s.)
Unlike the first routine I described, where you are copying the cuefile to where cMP expects to find it, you are instead pointing cMP to the cuefile. The effect is the same - cMP loads one and only one cuefile. The difference is that the second routine works fine on non-networked machines. Hair-shirt ones, even.
I'd be most grateful if someone could give it a try and report back any effect on SQ.
I used it to browse for music for at least a couple of years after cMP was published, having first spent several fruitless hours trying to make cMP's UI work with my library.
A friend for whom I built a cMP2 box has been using it ever since I handed over his system nearly three years ago and sees no reason to change. (His music is stored locally whereas mine is stored on a networked drive.)
HTH
Dave
Edits: 04/09/12 04/09/12
Hi all,
I did some tests on my (Atom-based, no-network, usb-soundcard) machine.
I used to load all cuefiles from the data-drive. Now i load individual cuefiles from CMP-drive, this turned out to be the best SQ, thanks guys!
in order from best sq to less good sq:
- single cuefile from cmp-drive
- all cuefiles from cmp-drive,
- single cuefile from data-drive
- all cuefiles from data-drive
I keep a backup of all music files in my desktop computer. The musicfile-drive has the same driveletter as the datadrive of the CMP-machine. I make the cuefiles on my desktop, and after that copy the cuefile to the cmp-drive.
Douwe
Just to explain my background on this saga, I started out putting all my cues onto a folder in my music drives. It sounded better than leaving all the cues on the music drive. Then I migrated to loading only one music drive per listening session after I took one of them off line (to load new music) and found out that sonics improved. So then after Douwe indicated that putting cues in a folder on the cmp drive was better yet I tried that and confirmed that yes this was better.So never one to leave well enough alone I tried organizing my cues into sub-folders then loading only 1 sub-folder onto my cmp drive per listening session. I did this with my favorites at 1st to see how having only 8 or so cue files on my cmp drive would sound compared to the the 300-400 cues I used to have when I loaded each of my music drives (5 all together). Doing this made a significant sonic improvement yet again. Maybe not as good as one cue on the cmp drive but certainly better than the 350 or so. Yes this means everytime I want a new group of 8 cues I have to shut down, pull out the cmp drive and load new cues. But since all of my drives are literally outside my cmp box this is not an issue. If anyone wants to try this remember you have to have cues loaded into another pc so you can access them at will. But the data disc since it contains 350 music files does not have to be reloaded.
Yes Dave your idea of 'putting all data on another computer then network everything' while loading one cue at a time is the best . My way is more complicated but results in approaching one cue file at a time on the cmp drive. And at least for me the loading of 8 cues at a time is not too cumbersome.
Why this makes such a big difference sonically is still not clear but it sure works good.
Edits: 11/03/12
Just tried it and it does improve sq significantly yet again. Thanks!
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