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In Reply to: RE: CMP on XP Home Edition posted by jackwong96 on December 27, 2011 at 04:13:25
Hi inmates, happy New Year!What are your wishes for 2012? Expecting to receive New Year gifts?
OK. Back to XP Home Edition. After having some hard time installing XPHomeSP1, I compared its sound quality with XPHomeSP2 and XPProSP2. Each OS underwent the same basic optimizations,including the latest registry tweaks, AWE and minlogon.
I mentioned in the last post that the SQ of CMP on XPHome SP2 is on top of XPProSP2, the HomeSP1 is one step forward. Greg, you are right! The differences between HomeSP1 and ProSP2 are profound. For example, less harshness, better minor details and focus, lighter but more real highs in HomeSP1 than ProSP2. A note lasted a bit longer in HomeSP1 and there were more minor reverberations. More importantly, the sound is more musical and appealing.
The HomeSP1 brings a jump in SQ, which I we believe is difficult to improve with the trimmed XPProSP2. However, I experienced difficulties in making HomeSP1 work with CMP, e.g. it couldn't shutdown in CMP and often couldn't reboot into CMP at all, occasionally no AWE. I didn't have such problem with HomeSP2. By chance, I made a few working installations, out of more than 12 attempts on 3 different computers. That said, however, I think it's still worthwhile to do so for the sake of SQ improvement.
In addition to the differences in SQ , I have the following observations:
1. The files in the 2 versions of SP2 are of the same size, but smaller in the SP1 version. This would potentially offer better chances to manipulate dlls to smaller size with Resources Hacking. There may be fewer AVIs, Icons, Strings and Dialogues.
2. HomeSP1 does not work well with CMP. It could hardly reboot into CMP mode. According to my experience, there was only one chance to do it right, i.e. CMP-Reboot-CMP. Thereafter, one cannot reboot into XP mode or shutdown. Should one missed the golden opportunity, will have to reinstall again.
3. After minlogon, User's ID was no longer recognized and the OS sometimes behaved erratically - settings were changed, I know, but some were very difficult to optimized because sometimes explorer wouldn't run in CMP mode.
4. The Registry of HomeSP1, and predominantly its simplicity rather than the size of files I believe, accounts for most of the improvements in SQ.How did I find out it's about the Registry? Well, I think you should take the opportunity to explore and experience this. I have some instructions, if you want, to try this out on your XPProSP2. Therefore, I urge you, my friends and brothers, if you are interested or want to experience upgrade of SQ to another level without installing XPHomeSP1, please send me an email. A New Year gift is awaiting your collection!
Edits: 12/30/11 12/30/11Follow Ups:
I've been living with the in-ability to easily switch between cMP-mode & XP-mode since first starting to use cMP 3 years ago or so. And since I've learned to get around that limitation, I have sorta forgotten that it was a problem caused by use of SP1.
I originally asked for help in this sub-thread about the time of cPlay 2.0b18: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=45174
There's a lot of extraneous content in that sub-thread, but bottom-line is that the suggestions did not help get me out of cMP-mode. Of course, I didn't realize then the issue was mode-switching not playing well with SP1.
Grant had a similar experience over a year later when he was playing with SP1: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=78335
The suggestions that he received also didn't help, I did respond to him with how I get around the limitations of being stuck in cMP-mode.
I also had some direct communications with cics on this. First, he pointed me to the registry entry that was changed to switch the modes:
" At the key 'HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SOFTWARE\\Microsoft\\Windows NT\\CurrentVersion\\Winlogon\'
/v Shell /t REG_SZ /d Explorer.exe
That is, at above key, the value for "shell" string is Explorer.exe for XP Mode."
But just changing this did not switch modes.
Cics also suggested "From Process Explorer, try resuming winlogon & smss processes. Then only shutdown."
Doing this, then selecting 'XP-mode' or 'cMP-mode' in cMP would sometimes switch it. I never spent enough time to totally troubleshoot and make it work consistently as using the 'Run' command from Task Manager to bring up 'Explorer' or 'Regedit' would suffice for about anything I wanted to do. The main exception to that is that the Juli@ control panel GUI only seems to be accessable when Windows is the shell... At least I haven't found another way to get into that GUI. But it hasn't been an issue for me so far, so I haven't pursued it further.
Jack, I am very intrigued by the SQ improvement you've reported using XP HomeSP1 and before I setup an installation of that, I'd really like to try your registry tweaks if you'll send them to me... I'll send you an email requesting via the normal channels.
Then to throw a couple more wrenches into the mix... Discussing this and a few other things via phone with Grant, he reminded me that SP1 was the first upgrade of Windows XP and that going to the original installation might provide further benefits. Now personally, I'm a little cautious with that because I remember SP1 making WinXP fairly stable and a lot more bug-free. But OTOH, I suspect most of the bugs fixed won't bother an optimized cMP setup even without the extreme slimming-down, so it might be another good direction in looking for the ultimate in SQ from windows.
And of course, if you can get access to them, the pre-release Beta versions of XP might even be better.
And in that vein, I don't know if any of you saw this thread on DIYAudio.com discussing making your own SATA cable and SQ improvements from doing that:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pc-based/202369-hand-made-sata-cable-cat.html
In that thread, a post by Wombat from Germany says:
"Donīt waste your time with Seriel ATA!
The best sound without a doubt you get from some well engineered IDE drives. German senior audiophiles have heard this as 3 times more dramatic improvement!
Most hunted for are well matured Samsung 320GB Spinpoints drives jumpered as SLAVE, running on an Intel ICH2 IDE Controller rev. B0. Beware! Later revisions sound edgy!
Finetuning with endless listening sessions for the best 40 pole cable are still in progress but you can expect a real winner. Rumors intensify around some UDMA/33 IDE cables delivered by a still *secret* Taiwanese manufacturer.
All this you best pair with the Intel chipset beta hotfix driver released at the end of January 2003. We talk about Windows 98SE of cause, all other OSīs are way to overloaded with all their tasks to ever be in the audiophile league we talk about here!
More surprises to be announced soon here!"
So the ultimate Ops System is Windows 98SE?
GACK!!!!!
Realistically, while I have copies of that around still, I doubt cMP or cPlay (or most other players around) will run on Windows 98!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. Ultimately, if sticking with SP1 or even going back to the original WinXP distribution is deemed to be the hot ticket for SQ, I suspect we could spend some of our collective brain-power and figure out how to fix the 'stuck in cMP-mode' problem for SP1 and earlier.
Everything matters!
as I'm using this device. My 120mb SSD as boot device does not sound as good as this small DOM(Thanks to Mihaylov!!), so I have to attach the big SSD as a secondary. And I'm moving over to network, as the size and quality of HDD/SSD won't affect SQ too much during data transfer over the network. I have a WD Book Live with 2TB HDD. I can't tell which config sounds better!
Thank for your advice on SP 1 startup. Never mind, I can live with it.
Regarding IDE HDD sounding better than SATA, I think we can't just look at the drive alone, rather it should a bird eyes view on the overall setup. I will no doubt IDE is better sounding, sure it was, at one stage when all SATA drives were using IDE-SATA convertor chips. They were erroneous in data transfer. In fact, I have used IDE drive for CMP in the early stage, but I didn't find them sounding better than SATA ones.
Even if IDE drives would sound better, I'm seriously doubtful if mobos with Intel ICH2 IDE and those old switching regulators would be worth for
use in CMP! No to mention the old CPUs generating high current, heat and noise.
Let the audio guru do what he think is right. We have to compromise and use everyday products. I find this change of hardware giving one motivation, as one switches to a new mobo/cpu and hears the improvement.
I would bored to death to stick with an old mobo, would you not!
but I did not buy yet because at first wanted 128 MB, and already 64МB or even 32МB, and such was not present :).
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/
My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live
Edits: 01/01/12 01/01/12
The info on the Memory Depot & Innodisk websites suggest the DOM SATA drives are powered from the SATA data connector, but the info I've been able to dig up on the connector pinout shows:
1 Ground
2 A+ (transmit)
3 A− (transmit)
4 Ground
5 B− (receive)
6 B+ (receive)
7 Ground
— Coding notch
(From here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_ATA)
No power there. What am I missing?
Thanks!
Greg in Mississippi
Everything matters!
How I realized there are two versions of the SATA DOM:
1. SATA DOM D150S http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd/listcat.asp?catid=satadomD150SV
2. DOM SATA D150 Vertical Built-in Power (pin7) http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd/listcat.asp?catid=satadomD150SVF
"- Does the Disk on Module come with the power Cable?
- All the Disk on Module that requires to get power from the power supply are coming with Power Cable adapter, The USB DOM and 44pin Disk on Module, that get powers from the data connector, doesn't come with any power cable since it is not required. "
(http://www.memorydepot.com/ssd/service.asp).
Dave correctly told about the second version.
A quote from the site just speaks about the first version with power cable. I suppose so. Jack Wong would be able to say exactly.
Serge.
http://cmp2-mihaylov.narod.ru/
My cMP2: Windows XP SP2 Ru, GA-H55M-UD2H, i3-530, Corsair CM3X160C9DHX 1GB, system drive - Transcend IDE FLASH MODULE TS2GDOM40V-S FAT32, ESI Juli@, full linear PSU, NAS - WD My Book Live
No power there. What am I missing?
According to the web site (provided you look hard and get lucky with it), there's a +5v power line on Pin 7 with this connection type. I'm not sure how it's done as Pin 7 is normally, as you note, Gnd. But it seems that conventional SATA interface devices are available - see link.
Best
Dave
What a great innovative product! Thanks Jack/Mihaylov.
Who needs to go back and forth?
Just connect the drive to another computer to do what you want to do.
You might be pleasantly surprised by what happens with a minimal installation. There is no comparison to where you are (per Grant) and where this can be with all unnecessary files and folders deleted and corresponding removal of references to these files in the registry.
To each his own. But one wonders how to compare these old WINDOWS versions to the minimal setup when the folks who are experimenting with them (as far as I know) are not comparing them to a fully minimized XP PRO SP2.
I would have thought you would be one of the first to forego convenience for sound quality. I suspect greater gain is there than making one's own SATA cables though that is something worth trying. My concern is where to get the connectors since I don't think cutting off the ends and soldering some new wire inbetween is a good idea. The bad wire is still there and soldered joints can be a problem for digital signals if one has not done it perfectly which is, of course, impossible. We have to do the best we can.
You have this great wire with two bottlemecks.
Now if you want to make it REALLY good you would directly solder the good wire to the HDD and the MB doing without the connectors. That would probably do something worthwhile.
IDE is out of the question for me since I have unsoldered the chip!
I'm a big fan of the work you, Steppe, Jolida, Theob, Grant. JackWong96, and others have been doing in developing the 'slimmed-down' WinXP installation. Honestly, the only reason I haven't applied all of the tweaks to my setup is that I wanted to keep the software side constant while I've been tweaking on the Juli@ digital section to make it easier to hear the differences. Once I get to a good settling point on the Extreme Juli@ mods, I'll go down the slimming-down route. I will say that applying the first set of slimming tweaks to my system (Steppe 1-5, the early Jolidas) made the largest system/software-related improvement in my setup's SQ & was on par to any one of the major power supply upgrades (Antec-> Hybrid/Linear w/PicoPSU, Hybrid/Linear-> Fully Linear, Bus-powered-Juli@-> separate power). Having heard that improvement, I'm clear on the magic that I'll hear when I perform the Slimming-Windows tweaks.
But one assumption I've held (and as far as I know, as yet untested) is that starting with an SP1 or Home system that starts out with a smaller file and installation footprint and sounding better than the typical by-the-instructions SP2 system will result in an even better sounding final setup after doing the Windows-Slimming. This may not be true... A lot of the work done in the slimming effort will minimize the footprint differences between the various versions of WinXP. But the remaining components will likely still be a bit simpler if they come from an SP1 or Home initial install (or earlier). Will it make a difference? Dunno... And honestly, I probably won't take the time to setup that comparison, got too many other interesting areas to explore.
But it was good to hear confirmation from JackWong on the SQ benefits of using an earlier, simpler Windows version over Pro/SP2 or later.
About the link to the SATA cable thread on DIYAudio.com, I really was only pointing out the post on the German audiophiles using Win98 for their audio systems... Makes even the most extreme cMP-Windows-Slimming efforts look a bit mainstream by comparison!
But on the subject of SATA cables & sounds, I'm not sure where I'm at on that. I do wonder about the suggestions from Mihaylov & others about small, simple IDE-connected drives for the OpSys drive, but I suspect that's more a matter of IDE processing vs SATA. These also come in SATA-connected versions, but I got the impression from their comments that IDE had some benefits. But back to the actual SATA cable, I'm open to it making a difference (remember Peter D's comments on that 3 1/2 years back?), but would tend to go with an ultra-short exotic-wire ones like Peter used... And soldered at one end like he did (and you also suggested).
On the connectors, I found some cables in one of my local computer stores that have snap-apart end-housings. So one can pop them open and solder directly to the end-connectors instead of retaining any of the original wire. If you ever care to experiment, if you can't find this locally, I can send you some.
But I think that power to the drives, SATA or IDE, is more important... and when I have a few spare minutes, I've got a 3.3v undervolting SATA power regulator to put in and try on my SSD, inspired by Douwe01NL's posts.
And finally thanks to you for being one of the 'beta-testers' on chip removal. Another great mod direction!
Later!
Greg in Mississippi
P.S. You do have me pegged as a 'hair-shirt' kind of guy with my audio stuff. Two of my not-too-distant past digital sources were a Peter-Daniel-inspired Shigaclone (bare-bones home-built CD drive) and before that a modified Sony PS-1 (not even a track display although I was able to come up with a remote for it!).
Everything matters!
It seems to me that you are trying something analogous to deciding how to voice a preamp using what you know is an amplifer not as good as it can be.
The transparency that results from getting rid of lots of sonic clutter could only make your task easier. I feel certain what your mod's effect would be more clearly apparent with the best cMP installation.
Tell me the brand name of the SATA connectors. I still think the way to mazimize it would be to solder one end directly to the board. I have found connectors to be one of the worst offenders when it comes to acheiving good sound. I am thinking for these frequencies the Allen Wright silver foils might be really good. I see the connectors are far apart on the standard SATA cable which would reduce capacitance at the expense of inductance which does seem kind of strange for a high frequency conductor but is this because the buffer/drivers (?) are not up to driving a higher capactitance? Was this discussed?
Simple is always better until it isn't. My most recent experience with this idea was installing a non-acpi version of XP Pro. I thought it sounded really good especially after it was "minimized". I fought with Junaid who said the acpi version sounded better. I did not want to do another re-install this quickly and I assumed the archaic had to be better. In this case it did not turn out to be so. Of course no rule holds fast for everything and it well could be that a more archaic version of XP Pro or Home could well be better. I would be glad to give it a try.
To close this brings me to what I consider a discontinuity that I cannot resolve - why would someone try the archaic OS without having first tried the minimal Pro since both seem to offer the same level of inconvenience which I know (damn well!) that you are a not a slave to. I know, that like myself, you take pride in making digital audio as difficult to use as a well set-up turntable!
If it were tricky to get to this current end point I would understand your reluctance but it is actually simple to get there. Just connect your drive to another computer and get rid of the files. No need for batch files, just delete all of the files between the ones you need. Just make sure you leave the OS in cMP mode before doing this (which seems to be the case, anyway) Especially if you get rid of EXPLORER which NEEDS to be got rid of.
I tried deleting JULI@ Controller in the registry and it no longer worked. I do not think one can get rid of this.
and I feel sure WOMBAT is being as facetious as a human being can be.
I think I will wait this one out!
I thought I would go ahead and download the GROUP POLICY EDITOR and see that the machine must be connected to the internet to work. I have never connected my music computer to the internet and suspect I will do without AWE.
RYELANDS has mentioned that he does not like what AWE does and I have noticed from numerous installs; a few nLite installs that would not allow AWE (I had gone too far) and I could not honestly say what was missing when AWE was missing, also.
One wonders just how important it really is at this point?
Thanks for another discovery. Just when you think cMP is done ...
Hi Rick,
Your emails were received. I'll send the gifts to your personal email.
Apparently, there are compatibility problems with SP1 and CMP, or perhaps associated with minlogon. I didn't delete any file at all when CMP was installed and I try to reboot.
You can download the program with a working computer, copy to your CMP machine and install therefrom. My gift is for use with XPPro, there is no need for any installation, a few basic steps will do the job. It's magic!
As for AWE, SP1 works well without it, though it is a bit better when enabled. XPHomeSP1 beats XPPro even without AWE.
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