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I have a lot of classical CDs and on high-end gear the majority of them sound significantly inferior to the jazz, pop, and rock CDs I have, especially when it comes to soundstaging. This is a great disappointment. Here I've got terrific equipment, and many symphony orchestras sound like chamber groups. You would think that the richness and variety of sound available from an orchestra would be an engineer's dream but not so to these ears. As much as I love classical music, when I want to make my gear jump through hoops I rarely put on classical music.Plus, since interpretation is so critical to most of us, a good recording of Beethoven by Ozawa when we'd rather hear Previn doing it just won't cut it. Let's face it: Pink Floyd recorded by Tom Petty ain't the same.
In fairness, I do have some good classical recordings. But they are far fewer than the good jazz and pop recordings I have. As a result, I listen to less classical music since I've upgraded my equipment. I'd be a lot happier with the cost of CDs if the recordings matched the prices.
What's the experience of other 'mates out there? (And with all due respect to my brothers in vinyl, I know I could switch, but that's not the point.)
Follow Ups:
Hi again!Labels: Accent, Argo, Auvidis Astree, Decca, DENON, Dorian, Harmonia Mundi, Hyperion,
Marco Polo, Naxos.
Engineers - Tony Faulkner is a hero. He freelances.
Systems - a good (the?!) test of whether a system has improved is whether it moves in the following direction - it lets you hear more of how good the music is, while also revealing how differently each was recorded.
Generally I find that a lot of classical recordings are still too obviously multimiked. NB where digital methods are used to remove the differences in path lengths this can work very well. Viz DGG's 4d, NB the technique was pioneered by Denon. Some of DENON's Mahler recordings are SOTA.
A TEST! One of the best recordings ever is 'A feather on the breath of God' on Hyperion and engineered by TF, see above, using a 'phased array' of figure 8 mikes - facing forward side by side, about a head and a half apart and much further back than a crossed pair. If this - medieval choral only music by Abbess Hildegrad of Bingen - doesn't knock your socks off, you might just have a system that is biassed toward multimiked recordings.
Mikes - too many cardioids are a bad thing, IME and IMHO. Omnis and figure 8's are not coloured by poor polar diagrams and thus sound better.
Cardioids allow people to play around, but make it much harder to get the tonal balance right. This is for the same reasons that spkrs with poor off axis FR's sound coloured in most listening rooms. The rear lobes of the cardioid are not clean across their FR.
Omnis and figure 8's in simple modes (3 or less) are harder to get right, but wow.
I would like to see more use of MS using an omni (M or l+r) and a figure 8 side ways (S or l-r).
just my $Aus 00.02 worth!
Timbo
warmest
timbo
I just listened (in a state of sheer joy) to Saint-Saens Organ Symphony on XRCD (JVC's remastering of the 1950s RCA Living Stereo series). Thrilling, wonderfully recorded classical CDs do exist. Unfortunately, many recordings made early in the digital age sound flat, and very few studios take the care to transfer older analog recordings to digital. (My 1980s recording of the Saint-Saens is boring in comparison with the XRCD.)You can find XRCDs at www.xrcd.com. The selection is limited, unfortunately. I find that the NPR Guide does a nice job of identifying well-recorded CDs on other labels.
even though they provide a great service, so does mercury living presence series, and for MUCH less for MORE product. that is, you get approx 1.5 LPs worth of music on one cd. and the quality is right up there. jvc has this capability and equip and they shoudnt be fleecing us to the tune of $26 per disc. sacd has greater rez and they dont even cost that much. hopefully, that will be the format that floats. the players are already the right price, we just need more titles. the software prices will come down to reg cd pricing, and they are way more worth that price than reg cd which are very cheeeeeeep to produce, cheeeeeeper than LPs were and are.
and im even hesitant to put out $30 for classics vinyl. i KNOW they are superior, and more expensive to produce, and if i am to spend anywhere near $30, it will be for classics or something primo and rare.
for classical LPs, you might try cisco records. lots of seemingly (to me) obscure titles that may just hit your spot........regards.......tom
......regards.....tr
I have been looking for a source to identify well recorded CDs. What is the NPR Guide?I have XRCD, Reference Recordings, Verve Master Editions, 20 bit K2, MFSL, and stuff like that so I know about those.
The NPR Guide to Building a Classical CD Library. It is not nearly as thorough as Penguin, but does a much better job of describing the recording quality as well as the performance. It tends not to identify smaller labels, but does a great job finding good recordings on the major labels (London, Sony, etc.)
Anybody like them? They seem pretty good to me. I had a 2-CD sampler once and it left some good impressions. If there was a character to them, lots of 'room sound'...
2 CD set I found at the local library. Mozart String Quintets K515 K516 K 593 K614 Solomon String Quartet with Simon Whistler violaSE on a rely below made me aware of the Hyperion label. This set was pretty good but I think I prefer the Harmoina Mundi CDs I've found. Please remember though that this was my first attempt with CDs on this label. I'll will definitely try to find more without spending any money to get a feel if I like this label. :))
51 tracks, over 140++ minutes of music. It cost me less than US$8 for this 2 CD set (NEW!). I figured with so many tracks surely a few are nice and I was right. This is one of the best sampler CD I've ever purchased.my 2 cts
At Borders or Barnes & Noble music sellers. I don't buy that much online. I'm interested in Baroque period (mostly string recordings) for now but I want to branch out. Your recommendation may be a quick start. The price is right, that is for sure.
NT
Harmonica Mundi and on Sony Classical (most of these are 24 bit). Please let me know either way. If you have, what do you think of those? I just started listening to Baroque period music. Even when I utilized my cheapo Denon AVR versus my Rogue Audio tube pre and power amp, the sound is pretty darn good.Better then jazz though? I have some darn good jazz recordings on CD. With any title, it is all in the quality of the recording no matter what genre one listens to!
I have only one HM CD - Cosi Fan Tutte played by Concerto Koln/Rene Jacobs. Lovely tonality. As it was an opera highlights CDs, I felt the vocals and the music seem a little 'separated' (recorded separately) but somehow blended and balanced very, very nicely.Sony Classical - I hadn't tried the recent ones, but seems like they're getting pretty favorable comments....
Just my opinions
I've been considering getting that Cosi--got raves on Amazon. Have you been able to compare it with other Cosis?RE Harmonia, they are great. Herreweghe is my main man. Have him in Berlioz Enfance du Christ, Beethoven's Ninth, Bach Cantatas with Scholl and Kooy. Exceptional choral work IMO. All worthwhile and sound has got to be near the best digital available on CD.
But from what I hear, generally good singing (although not perfect, some mispitches and occasional awkward transitions from the ladies). Concerto Koln (which is the main reason why I bought the CD) did not disappoint. For example, the overture sounded energetic and lively and overall accompaniement throughout the opera was nicely sympathetic. However, no single track truly impressed me to hit that 'repeat' button. The mixing is perfectly balanced IMHO.Have heard good things about Herreweghe via a friend in Brussels. Will audition his Beethoven 9th as suggested.
Many interesting suggestions and points made. I sometimes do forget to stop listening to the messenger and just enjoy the message. I will look for favorites on the labels recommended. It's good to know some of the better sounding labels. My system is terrific to my ears, so that's not a significant problem, other than sometimes wondering if a $100K system really would improve the soundstage.Who knows? Maybe I'll return to vinyl one day and then curse the day I gave away hundreds of very fine classical recordings. Actually, I might not try vinyl just to avoid that. Wink, wink. Nudge, nudge.
Nice to chat with you, 'mates. Hope more feel free to post additional opinions.
You're system isn't posted so I'll presume to write;
Try SET's and horns and these cd's:
Thanks. I took a look at the LSO site. It's on my favorites list now so I can keep a look at the recordings. The price is incredibly reasonable. Bravo for them. I like the spirit in which they were created.My system is a Pass/Volksamp Aleph 30, Creek OBH 12 pre, Arcam CD92, Clements 206di floorstanders, and DIY cabling. I love the system.
Well, you cut me off from my first (and always) suggestion, which is to go vinyl. But anyway, I agree with SE that there are some excellent classical cds, would add to the list: Dorian, some Chandos, and any of the cd reissues of the great Living Stereo and Living Presence golden age recordings. These were really well done.There are those who hold that the kind of "up close" recording that provides a well defined soundstage is not, in an orchestral setting, a natural or realistic representation of the "absolute sound" as you would hear at a live symphony concert. In other words, when I am sitting even fairly close to a live symphony--say row 10--I don't really hear a sharp "soundstage" division among the instruments (ie: can't close my eyes and point to EXACTLY where violins #1 end and violins #2 begin, or EXACTLY where violas end and cellos begin...)
Nonetheless, I do enjoy those up close recordings. I like to imagine that this is if fact the absolute sound, maybe from the conductor's point of view.
Who is ever lucky enough to sit dead center in the hall's sweet spot? But as you note, I like the illusion that it is possible, and since I conduct at least a third of all the recordings I listen to, your conductor's point of view suggestion suits me to a T. After all, what's the point of having thousands of dollars of gear unless the music sounds different(better)than on a Best Buy all-in-one system?I'll keep an eye out for the Living Presence and Living Stereo reissues. Thanks for the tip.
My Good Sir,It certainly appears you're in desperate need of an analogue front end. I have literally thousands of drop-dead gorgeous classical recordings/performances on vinyl. Classical CD's sound just fine while at ye ol PC, but that's about the only time I give them a listen.
I much prefer slapping on some vinyl (carefully)onto the Clearaudio/Ruby combo....those UK ALP's, ASD's, SXL's, & shaded Dogs sure sound good.....although I still have a soft spot for my old mono Furtwangler recordings!!
Tom B.
i think most will agree with se regarding the quality of classical over pop etc. are you confusing the complex and exaggerated miking/mixing processes in pop/jazz with the more symplistic ones of classical. you can get pop/jazz, etc to fill your soundstage, but if you listen carefully you'll find it doesn't come close to sounding like what its supposed to represent, that is the actual location of the players. i will agree with you that not all classical recordings will fill your sound stage or define the location of the actual players - much depends on the acoustic of the original event, the number of mic's and the mixing, as well as the engineer's intent, or competence.i would suggest that now that you have a great system just accept that and start listening to the music, as opposed to the sonic performance of your system.
Classical and jazz (equally) are recorded in better quality than pop. The soundstaging of orchestral recordings is phenomenal on a good system -- big, wide and deep. This is true whether it's a CD or vinyl source. The easiest advice I can give is to point you to record labels such as Telarc or Reference Recordings to make sure it's not your system. If CDs by these companies don't sound well with your gear, you know there's a problem with the setup.
Sorry if I may have asked in another post back one as I have asked for feedback from some inmates when I first started listening to Baroque period classical music. I do have some of the Reference Recordings and have picked up some on Sony Classical with 24 bit processing.Haven't bought too much yet. It's been more sampling recordings in the library. As far as the sound quality, I'm pleased but are we ever entirely? :))
Harmonia Mundi , in particular, is outstanding for Baroque. Vivaldi, Bach, Handel, Rameau, Corelli, Charpentier -- they've got it all. In general, excellent performances and recordings. Maybe the single best label for Baroque music...Also, try Hyperion .
Happy hunting!
For Harmonica Mundi which I also recommended to this gentlemen to try earlier this morning when I asked you for suggestions. No one can go wrong with that label if they like Baroque music and want great CD sound quality.I'll try some titles on the Hyperion label. Don't think I remember seeing any in the library.
Thanks for your help!!
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