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In Reply to: RE: Dead vs Steely Dan posted by jedrider on September 27, 2020 at 08:34:12
Simply stated:
Grateful Dead are a rock/Americana band that is heavily into improvisation. They are not "purely" any one thing.
Steely Dan are a rock band that freely uses the jazz harmonic palette.
I'm a fan of both.
Follow Ups:
I don't really think of Steely Dan as a rock band.
Singer/songwriters yes, but those two guys used session musicians for just about all the instrument playing- drums. lead guitar, percussions,keyboard, etc. and often backing vocals.
And the session musicians often contributed to the compositions - guitar solos and riffs, drum riffs, etc.
Pretty much just the vocals and basic melodies came from the two, although Becker sometimes contributed some guitar work also.
sex after 70 is like trying to play pool with a rope
Becker is the sneaky tasty player back in the mix
check out Time Out Of Mind
besides Knopfler, what recent player slurs on a fretboard clean like that?
that ain't no frappin' and railin' as the old boys say
it isn't basic either ... Mel Tormé even said their songwriting was outstanding
if it's good enough for the Velvet Frog ...
on the other hand he liked Hootie & The Blowfish too so ...
regards,
Wow... a lot of wrong stereotyping here. I'll throw out some personnel opinion that I think to be truths.Mostly, the Grateful Dead "thing" isn't about being stoned or lifestyle, it's about the music and I'll add that Jerry Garcia's musical "paintings" are very lovable.
They have the most prolific catalog that is second to none. You can put Steely Dan, The Stones and name your band and triple it and you will have the beginning of what you can explore in the GD catalog. If you add Garcia's output to the equation(Bluegrass, Western, Dylan, Jazz, Motown genre's)you (me) have a lifetime of discovery. Not all of it is great or even good and you can find plenty to criticize. Even some of my favorite songs aren't entirely good. Sometimes you have to "suffer" through some songs to get to when the band starts clicking or a Garcia solo that gives you goose bumps. You know when you are a true fan when you start loving the "bad" stuff.
Grateful Dead fans for the most part don't care if you like the Grateful Dead or not. So, I'm not going to try to make any converts but I will say this: Jazz greats like Ornette Coleman and Branford Marsalis don't play with wanna be's. They play with artists of the highest order and they both loved to play with the Grateful Dead.
As I get older, I don't listen to (as much anyway) the Stones or Zeppelin or Credence or most other classic rock bands I've loved over the years. But I still listen to the Dead and maybe even more. Very hard to describe but a lot of the music has a mellow bouncy quality, even when it's "rocking". See... Cornell 5/8/77 as the ultimate example of this.
My Magnum Opus is not Grateful Dead but a Jerry Garcia Band set. I listen to it at least once a month and have for years... it's the gift that keeps on giving: After Midnight- Keens College 2/28/80 Disc TWO. It warms you up with a sweet Marvin Gaye cover and then on to the groovy Tulsa sound of JJ Cale and then builds into a haunting and epic Beetles cover and finishes back to earth with Cale. It's moody, sophisticated, surprising and builds into an epic crescendo. It is not light listening. The rhythm section is simultaneously jazz quartet nimble and powerful. Garcia's playing is at it's very finest in coherence and improvisation. If I had a time machine and one ride to take, it would be to the front row of this set.
Steely Dan- Wow... what a fantastic band: Sophisticated and cool, the guitar riffs and horn sections, the weaving of jazz and rock and that's just the sound. The lyrics are equally cool and fun. New England Prep school meets Soho and Southern Cal Bohemia. There's nothing like it. Love everything about them with one big exception, there's just not enough of it. I cant keep listening to the exact same studio version of Pretzel Logic over and over again. I wish they had played live more with improvised versions of their catalog. (BTW... Grateful Dead has 3500 live shows floating out there).
Edits: 11/02/20
well, you are the god of mischief aren't you?
to me the most important part of music is whether or not it resonates with me and is evocative ... obviously it's the same for you, and you know what you like and who plays it ... I used to have a friend that didn't care about music, it was just noise that he either liked or not, but never sought it out or invested in gear to play it back with ... obviously not a musician ... this was so alien to me that I wasn't even sure I liked the guy! yet he became a friend like a brother
so enjoy your music and take any criticism I proffered in stride as a matter of taste ... that goes for anyone else too of course
I really appreciate and enjoyed your reply, you effectively communicated your love for Garcia & Co. music to the point that you damn near got me to give the Dead another go, but I quickly snapped out of it!
best regards,
I am trying to figure out Sun Ra. Like the GD, he is very prolific with all kinds of different genres and soundscapes. I'll have to say that I'm loosing the battle but am being persistent due to the enthusiasm and passion of the fans.
Sun Ra is an acquired taste ... he scored very 'theatrical' music and so went his live shows ... saw him once by accident and found the music interesting in context ... to hear his charts without the live show is indeed a challenging listen ... always thought he was to jazz what George Clinton is to funk ... though not necessary, it helps to see Funkadelics / Parliament to 'get' them ... though the freight train rhythm section comes through anyway
good luck with your exploration, maybe YouTube the Arkestra for some context if you haven't and things might click ...
regards,
Interesting thoughts. Actually seeing artists really helps complete the "picture".
Like I mentioned about Steely Dan and other Rock groups, they lack content for the long run. Sun Ra, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, and other jazz greats have such prolific catalogs which includes both studio and live. Jazz goes back 100 plus years so there is just more time as well.
So, if you can catch the joy of one of these artists, you will have a lot of fun hours of listening. For the longest time I just couldn't get Miles and took Louis and Ella for granted. But somewhere along the line all those artists "hit" me like a train. Sometimes it's a single note and like Miles, I just finally found a few albums that I could appreciate and my love grew from there. It's almost like learning a new language. It takes time and effort and then out of the blue, a whole new world opens up for you.
'time and effort and then out of the blue'
aha! Miles' Kinda Blue set the hook for me ... again, my jazzbo pals turned me onto it by playing the charts whilst I jammed on it ... then I heard the record and ... "so that's what I'm trying to play" ... the next time they trotted it out I laid back [I was way too 'busy' before] and just came in on where the brass chorus should be with a staccato chord voicing ... we didn't have horns in the room at that point ... that worked and earned me some high fives and a proud little moment
alrighty then, I'm off to get some honey-do honey-done in a few so ...
have a great or better day!
I see them differently. They were an actual band (with some attrition) til about Aja, when the use of studio musicians predominates. They needed the versatility and ability of the studio guys in order to realize the sophistication of their writing.
Even then, Becker & Fagen wrote the charts. There's a famous story of Steve Gadd playing drums on the title song and nailing the pre-written chart in one take.
There were rhythm arrangement contributions along the way from people like Larry Carlton, but the bulk of the composition, arrangement and all lyrics were always by B&F.
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