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In Reply to: RE: Pouty Lips live in San Francisco last Monday posted by Chris from Lafayette on April 06, 2017 at 18:13:19
The use of your nickname for her, and in fact the whole "babe" thing ultimately grates, and I find I can't actually read your review. You know a lot about music and have much to say, and I think you are doing a disservice to yourself, actually.
Follow Ups:
NT
. . . have been to complain about my babe posts. They seem to be the only thing on this forum worthy of your interest. Don't you have any opinions of your own about recorded music? C'mon, don't live vicariously through my posts - start living your own life.
You made the same argument last time. It didn't make sense then, and it doesn't make sense now.
Just an observation, man. And, yes, it DOES seem weird.
NT
Chris isn't the one who actually does that. If that is what you see then you simply aren't looking very carefully. Obsessing over appearances happens plenty on classical music forums, not so much on this forum as other classical music forums. It is wierd but it aint Chris. Chris clearly "obsesses" over the music and parodies mysogyny and other classical music fans' obsession over appearances. But if you are actually paying attention it ought to be obvious that the content of his posts clearly focus on music. The parodies are often just throw aways. Small side bits. They are rarely if ever the focus of his posts. when they are the focus of his posts it is usually in self defense against the angry mob here who either aren't getting it or are getting it and are made uncomfortable by it.
Which leads me to another point. This hoopla over Chris makes me wonder what it is that is *really* bothering folks. If it is mysogyny then, contrary to claims otherwise, folks aren't really getting what Chris is doing AND they are blind to the real instances of mysogyny and obsession over appearances. Which, IMO, is probably better than the opposite, that folks are getting what he is doing and *that* makes them uncomfortable.
NT
I think it is, if anything, lacking in proportion to the actual mysogyny that is prevailent amongst white male classical music fans that are middle aged and older. It may look like a staple when ypou add in all the responses to Chris's parodies but if you add up his "babe" posts by themselves they make for a very small percentage of the content on this forum.
On white (don't know how race got into it) male middle-aged and older classical music fans? Who are mysogynistic, ageist and racist? And too stupid to understand they are the ones being mercilessly skewered over and over, not the gorgeous young women Chris seems to be talking about? And the more they complain about it, the more they only prove how mysogynistic, ageist and racist (and stupid) they really are?
I see. Given all that, I can't imagine how anyone would ever get tired of all those babe posts. :-)
It's far more creative. I do still find the babe posts amusing and the reactions even more amusing. But then one of those "babe" musicians is a close personal friend of mine so maybe I enjoy the skewering more because of that.
That's where we differ. I enjoy discussions about music, which I thought was the point here.
Remember Monty Python's brilliant Argument Sketch, where the hapless protagonist, played by Michael Palin, accidentally stumbles into the Abuse Office? That might be a good place for you to hang out.
I enjoy discussions about music as well. But I see no reason to limit my enjoyment to just that. I hung out at the "abuse office" for a while, rec music classical recordings. It is mysogyny central. Definitely not a good place for me. I prefer this forum where Chris skewers those guys.
. . . righteousness underlying all the holier-than-thou responses to my babe musician posts.
I'm not going to lecture you or anyone else about how to talk about women. But for me, the whole point of this forum is that there are posters here who know a lot about classical music, jazz, and music generally. What does baiting people who don't like babe posts into heated exchanges accomplish other than needlessly alienating them? Many of them have made numerous insightful contributions here over the years.
You know perfectly well that a forum like this can easily deteriorate into an insult fest resulting in a lot of banning and other heavy-handed moderation. That wouldn't be good.
This post is not specifically in response to TGR's post, but is a general response to those inmates who have posted in this thread and who indicated their shock and dismay at my use of the name, "Pouty Lips".
I'm going to tell you about a television show - a very popular television show in fact. It was on the air for over a decade, and at certain times, it was the highest-rated show on (American) television. If you haven't guessed already, the show I'm talking about is "M*A*S*H".
One of the main characters on the show was Margaret "Hot Lips" Houlihan. Need I say more? I'm wondering where all your outrage was when this show was rated number one. Something happened in the intervening years which sensitized you so much that you now see a name like "Hot Lips" or "Pouty Lips" and instantly you recognize it as a grave, even vicious, offense against women, regardless of context! For those of you who feel that way, hyperbolize much? What would you do when confronted with actual, real viciousness? When you say that referring to someone as "Pouty Lips" is a vicious put-down, I just have to wonder what kind of genteel world you live in. I can't even begin to understand it.
BTW, I don't believe that the term, "babe", was used in my OP on this topic.
and it still didn't work.
Not vicious at all, just find your babe shtick immature, tedious and obnoxious.
Not neccesarily in that order.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
Not the one you imagine it to be, but maybe one with more shades of grey than you're accustomed to.
I hate being the guy who has to explain jokes but Chris is not being the sexist here. He is the one who makes fun of a kind of sexism that is quite prevalent amongst old white male classical music fans. Guys who completely lack awareness of their own sexism. Here is a hint though, the outrage over Chris's jokes are the punchlines of his jokes.
if you're nine years old.
berate is 8 and benign is 9
I have actually met Chris a couple of times, by the way. I don't know if you have had that pleasure but he knows a lot about music, and is a great guy. And it is true that attractive young women are being marketed in classical music in an almost pornographic fashion, regardless of the artistic merits. But this is a running joke that has gone on way too long, and at some point crosses over into its own brand of misogyny. The continued replacement of a violinist's name with a derogatory nickname detracts from the actual review. A little bit of this goes a long way.
NT
well, I don't think it's about how they are being marketed. And I don't think they are being marketed in "an almost pornographic fashion." Actually I think the belief that they are is part of what Chris is making fun of. But...at least you do get that he is making fun of mysogeny and sexism. IMO it's the mysongeny and sexism amongst classical music fans he is mocking with parody not the marketing or how these women present themselves.
Edits: 04/08/17
.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
really is a conservative?
A neighbor of mine and by appearances a very nice guy. But he seems to have toned down the faux-conservative act he used to have.
New show, new approach.
. . . I don't even know what I'm doing myself! Maybe I've been the butt of my own humor all these years! ;-)
.
NT
and a Bored member yet!
Pretty much makes all his knowledge and experience as posted on AA irrelevant.
"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination" -Michael McClure
But I get Chris's joke
nt
berate is 8 and benign is 9
I guess I've said enough times that I find it extremely sexist, derogatory, demeaning, disrespectful, and sometimes (as in the case of "pouty lips") just downright vicious.
I suppose the culture of music marketing contributes to this ongoing misogyny, with soloist websites and the materials accompanying recordings that emphasize sexuality. But that's not a justification for perpetuating it in a public forum.
However, these issues have been discussed over and over without a whisper of understanding, much less a hint of change. So I suppose we just live with it. That doesn't mean we have to support it or participate in it ourselves. I now try to avoid contributing to discussions that mention "babes" or other derogatory terms.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
While some people today are overtly sensitive to anything of indifference,they would do better to realize that every successful entertainer at some point in their career pick up a few nick names along the way.Angelina Jolie was also famous for her pouty lips and they helped enhance her career.
I don't find the name pouty lips to be condescending at all.I actually find it to be very endearing,and the lady is very attractive.Unfortunately, political correctness has put our whole country on notice to the point where we can't say anything without being ridiculed.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken
. . . obviously, I agree with you when political correctness goes overboard. And I think it's spreading so much now that we're all going to have to spend more on "safe spaces" for our more sensitive folks here, so that they can be protected from my brand of vile and demeaning language! ;-)
In any case, I appreciate your comments!
You are generalizing a very specific application of bias compared to a universal problem. Use of nicknames is, indeed, endearing. Showing disrespect of an entire class of professional performers, and repeated dismissal of one in particular simply because of their sex, is not.
Yes, pouty lips is cute, but using it exclusively to demean someone is offensive. Not in a PC way, but in a human way.
You wanna be called needle dick all the time? How about when someone is discussing the way you perform your job?
berate is 8 and benign is 9
I invite you to substantiate how I've been dismissive of or demeaning to Pouty Lips - in fact, if you had bothered to check, you'd see that I've consistently rated her performances and recordings very highly indeed (aside from the HIP influences in her playing of Bach). Where does this "repeated dismissal" assertion come from? Please feel free to elaborate as much as you want.
This has gone on long enough for most adults, and there's nothing to be gained by further arguing. You will never concede any fault and must always have the last word. You win. I am vanquished and will never attempt another rescue of a poor damsel, distressed or otherwise. You were right all along. I will solve the problem myself by never reading another one of your posts.
berate is 8 and benign is 9
Apparently a very popular look is actually a terrible thing when described. Zoolander's Blue Magnum needs to be banned
For some mysterious reason, people just don't really see how noxious their terminology/comments really are. I don't know how many times I've heard "I once had a black friend so I'm not racist" kind of bullshit.
Chris, I respect your knowledge of music and you contribute a lot to this forum, but the reality is, your language is sexist, derogatory, and demeaning towards women. You seem to think it is all in "fun," just boy talk. Well, Trump thinks "grab 'em by the pussy" is just fun boy talk. It's not.
If you have so little respect for women that "babe" and "pouty lips" are constant, *constant* ways of referring to them, you obviously just don't get it.
99.99% of the people on this forum are male. Most seem to think it is funny or cute that women are referred to as babes or even more derogatorily. But some of us do not subscribe to that kind of misogynistic world view.
I've said it before. I do not like this sort of demeaning sexism. And I'm sure you still just don't get it.
But hey, we're cool. You go ahead demeaning women and I'll just ignore those posts like TGR.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
That would make me a SAD panda!
And I can't even offer you a "safe space" to be consoled.
I guess people have to have SOMETHING to get offended about these days - just to add to the general level of faux outrage. As Timbo used to say (about me - but now it really applies to you), your SNAG (i.e., Sensitive New-Age Guy) credentials are noted, but you might want to consider finding something more worthy of being outraged about in the future.
You really are adamant about being an obnoxious asshole. And I'm not any type of snowflake.If anyone else were the moderator here, they'd probably give you a warning or ban you outright. You behave like a nine-year-old. Most of us gave up that whole name-calling girls thing when we quit going to the playground for recess. Grow up! It's not clever, or charming, or cute, or the least bit funny.
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9
Edits: 04/07/17
So it looks as if my nicknames for the various babe musicians were then and still are considered "family friendly" on this site. (And if they're not, something is truly, abysmally out of whack.)
Really, I suggest you go worry about something that's actually important!
Sorry, I don't follow your personal history and I really don't care what you got away with in the past. Perhaps someone should have stopped you immediately rather than allow it to continue this long. I do have many other more important things to worry and care about.Is that all you took away from my post? I guess you can't see your obnoxious behavior bothers people and might even drive them away from this site, just so you can continue carrying on like a child. Now you stamp your feet and scream "no" when many people reasonably suggest you adjust one aspect of your style. Or perhaps aggravating people here is what you truly enjoy, which would be pitiful.
I worked in a factory for 27 years. Ran a machine, swore like a sailor, used all the bad words for women, men, god, dog, anything else. Still do. I am pretty far away from being PC or a feminist, yet your attitude here offends me because you strive to appear so very erudite and cultured even while you belittle an entire class of people who have done nothing to deserve your derision other than carry two X chromosomes. It detracts a lot from the value of what you have to say. You don't understand that all we ask is for you to change the way you write about female performers?
You're what is abysmally out of whack here, and I suggest you shut up and think about it for a change instead of reflexively posting a hurt little boy retort.
Tom E
berate is 8 and benign is 9
Edits: 04/07/17 04/07/17
. . . imaginary rescues of your damsels in distress from the slings and arrows of outrageous nicknames!
If you think carefully about it, YOU are actually the one who doesn't respect women - underlying your outrage is the assumption that babe musicians need a knight in shining armor, such as yourself, to protect their dainty sensibilities from these horrible nicknames which have been used for them. They're so weak, and they can't defend themselves, so they need YOU to speak up for them.
That's fine - if you don't have much of a life other than to guard for transgressions against your ideas of propriety in referring to female musicians, then go for it! I guarantee you that not everyone (and that includes women) shares your particular brand of sensitivity.
That's twisted. Are you compensating for insecurity or merely incorrigible?
I get the feeling that this forum and its contents are far more important in your life than in mine. How does what we request diminish your enjoyment of participating in it? Will your ego collapse if you refrain from pointlessly mocking an entire class of human beings?
Please don't demean Shakespeare by paraphrasing him so tritely. It only cheapens him.
I'm defending a principle: that all people, especially dedicated professionals, deserve respect regardless of their sex. It is utterly inconceivable to me that you cannot understand that and act accordingly unless you have malicious intent.
Can you imagine what would happen if someone began posting threads about nigger violinists? Would you draw the line there? Why nigger and not babe? Is one term less derogatory as a classification than the other? Ask a few women.
berate is 8 and benign is 9
OMG you hit the nail on the head there but please please please don't say babe! (I feel so dirty even spelling it out) Call it the B word. And if anyone asks you which B word it is just tell them **THE**!! B word. They should know what you are talking about.
Chris, you certainly bring out the best in people, especially those who call for sensitivity and manners and then blast you with their own insensitivity and bad manners. :)
Chris, I will address you in the type of language you are familiar with.
You are a douchebag, an obnoxious person.
Moderate that!
What makes your behavior pathetic is that it appears you are smart enough to know that you're acting like an idiot. On the other hand, you may be too old to realize that.
Anything else you'd like to share?
n/t
keeping in mind the context of the thread.
That said, I've never been particularly comfortable with these 'babe' threads but then I am also not particularly comfortable with the way women in classical music are 'marketed'.
I've been guilty of posting more than my fair share on album covers with what I consider attractive musicians, so I suppose I must share some of the blame.
My bad.
For crying out loud, this isn't a forced confession, Soviet-style show-trial! ;-)
For the record, trolling was Ivan's idea, I um, reluctantly played along. But you're willing to play the "Snowflake" card? Man, you should be sentenced to listen to the Boulez piano sonatas nonstop for a full week, and as played by Charles Rosen, not some good-looking young babe.
Never mind political correctness. All these first names and pet names are too confusing for me. Have some pity for those who are trying to follow your posts!
(Yes, I know I could hunt through your posts to find the full names or look at the album covers. I could also get up at 5:30 am every morning and do 100 sit ups, and maybe I should. But I don't wanna.)
Actual full names in brackets right after the first references to a first name or a nickname.
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