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I've known the famous Kondrashin forever.
I don't expect the same searing, idiomatic intensity from Wigglesworth but I like what I've heard from the conductor so far and can recommend the 11th and 12th without hesitation. The 4th to a lesser extent.
Sound nuts will be thrilled: BIS does a great job capturing the Netherlands Radio Orchestra. The punch and weightiness of the sound is a marvel, and I'm assuming that the 13th will be just as overwhelming.
So, if you don't know the dreary story: Yevgeni Yevtushenko, the poet who wrote Babi Yar, was shocked and saddened to discover that there was no official memorial above a Ukrainian ravine into which mainly executed Jews were thrown by invading Nazis during WWII. In 1961 he published the brazen poem, which denounced anti semitism and the Soviet Govt's refusal to specifically acknowledge the ravine as a holocaust site
Unsurprisingly, Shostakovich's music for the 13th is painted in greys and black, including parts for solo bass and unison male choir. There are thrills and spills in the first movt, relatively-speaking, but the remaining movts can seem a bit static. Upon repeated listening, however, one will discover some truly touching moments. In my opinion, the key to making it through Shosty's more bare and psychologically- ruminating stretches is to think of the music as more ritualistic than argumentative. You just have to lose yourself in Shosty's simple, recurring ideas, which--to me--seem designed to suspend cognition.
I was going to give Petrenko on Naxos a try but given that the Wigglesworth is only $6 bucks today at eclassical, the young buck can wait.
Follow Ups:
...Yevtushenko passed away today (April 1).
nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
(or not-so-grumpy!) people on this thread feel better.
Zoya, Mitya, Mariya. St. Petersburg, circa 1912Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Edits: 03/29/17
Hi jDaniel,
Is the a box set of cds or lps you would recommend for the complete Shostakovich symphonies ? The only recording I have of the 13th is the one by Ormandy.
Or if you could list the symphonies by conductors individually. I would appreciate it. Thank you.
Thank you for asking. I've listened to Shostakovich since my teens, so I know more than some, but less than most. There are so many recordings available that I haven't heard.
The safest bet is a Melodiya compilation of remasters from the 60s and 70s. There are few box sets of CDs and from there you can read reviews and choose which compilation you prefer. Sound will be an issue but these performances have a unique intensity and, dare I say, "documentary" quality often unmatched by European or American orchestras.
If you're an Lp guy, many of Shostakovich's Melodiya Lp's were mastered by EMI, US Angel and Columbia. I'd recommend the UK-pressed EMI's. For European/American performances, I'd recommend Stokowski's 5th on Everest, Karajan's 10th on DGG, Ancerl's 1st on Suprphon, Berglund's 6th and 11th on EMI, Previn's 8th and 13th on EMI, and Bernstein's 7th on Columbia. You'll be very pleased with the sound of these issues.
On CD, Jarvi's 4th on Chandos is my favorite: it shocks and crackles as it should. Bernstein's 1st and 7th with the Chicago on DGG is very good; I prefer his 1st to his 7th.
On Hi-res and SACD, I'm only now exploring and have enjoyed what I've heard of Wigglesworth's cycle immensely so far. Stunningly-recorded, there's punch and shock, sensitivity to the more introvert sections; but there's not always an "edge of seat" quality which some feel Shostakovich requires.
I've heard that the Caetani set on SACD has been very well-received. As has the Petrenko on Naxos.
The list goes on and on, so take my rec's FWTW. : )
I don't have it, is Rudolph Barshai and the WDR Orchestra. Barshai, like Kondrashin, knew DDS VERY well, and collaborated on a number of works, including orchestrating several of the string quartets.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I will have to check this set out MWE. I appreciate you chiming in on this. Thank you.
is the original Kondrashin on Russian Disc (link below). Not cheap, and below the radar somewhat (unfortunately Archiv Music doesn't have it, just Amazon), but this is the first recorded/released performance of the symphony and was the second performance of the piece two days after the premiere, Dec. 20, 1962. The Soviet authorities were VERY displeased the the premiere was even given, and made extremely strong "suggestions" that it not go on- Kondrashin describes phone calls inquiring as to "Kirill Petrovich, how is your health? Can you think of any reasons why you might not be able to conduct tonight?". That sort of thing. The primary soloist was persuaded for his own good to cancel. Under Stalin, it NEVER would have taken place. It's amazing that the SECOND performance took place, especially with the original "unapproved" text, and it's not even acknowledged to have occurred in some of the literature. The recording is very good for the day, in stereo, and there's a palpable tension to the performance, not surprising considering the environment.Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Edits: 03/26/17
Kondrashin was actually Shostakovich's second choice to conduct the premiere, after Mravinsky backed out. and Gromadsky was the *third* choice as soloist, after Boris Gmyrya was pressured into withdrawing, and Victor Nechipailo became conveniently unavailable at the last minute.
Or said another way, the No. 13 that is part of this Box set?
Not the original, but apparently recorded in the late 60's w/ Artur Eizen.
This box set is rather pricey on AMAZON ) available on both QOBUZ and TIDAL
Original is available on SACD for a bit less than the version you mentioned. See link below:
linked is mono, if that matters (the Russian Disc version is stereo). But I could be wrong.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Claims to be a stereo DSD and the lower right hand corner shows distribution as hamonia mindi, which is generally a good sign, as is the text that seems to describe it as the live recording with the original text.
DSD to boot!
Again, we'll see. Price ain't that bad.
Worse is the fact that my wife likes Shostakovich about as much as Chris does! :-)
about any of it.
Bottom left says, "stereo and mono bi-channel".
Amazon automated pricing does some really goofy things.Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Edits: 03/27/17 03/27/17
Obviously the age of this recording tells you this was an analog recording (not DSD either!). I have seen a few reviews of these Praga reissues. Their source material is unknown, and they have reissues of stuff that appeared before on Columbia, Melodiya, Supraphon, and others. None of the reviewers have said, "Wow! This sounds so much better than other reissues of this performance!"
"Wow, this is a whole lot cheaper than the original..."
Or at least a new copy of the one MWE linked to above.
A new copy of the SACD version was only about $15 plus $3.99 shipping.
We'll soon know if it's any good.
Thanks Mark. I have read where the Kondrashin is the ONE. Man you're right about pricy. Thank you for the inside history of the performance. I bet you could cut the tension there with a knife. Thanks again my friend.
another several-year-later Kondrashin recording on Melodiya (with the regime-mandated revised text) which certainly is good, but without the urgency of the late '62 recording. Overall, whichever of any of these symphonies you get, enjoy! And if you haven't already, you might explore the string quartets. I came to them late (as I did chamber music in general), and they take some time to really absorb, but they're amazing.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Thanks for the heads up. I have all the string quartets. They are wonderful indeed.
Man this is exactly what I was needing jdaniel's. Excellent my friend. Thank you so much for your help. I also have been listening to Shostakovich since by early 20's. First one was Berstein's 5th. I appreciate you taking the time for me. Very cool my friend. Thank you again and have a wonderful Sunday.
Stokowski recorded his 5th on Everest with Bernstein's NYPO under the "Stadium Symphony of NY."
I find the Stokowski far more interesting and much better-recorded. Wait until you hear the solo violin in 2nd mov't! Will put a smile on your face for sure.
Everest has allowed much of its catalog to be downloaded in hi res, but not the Stokowski yet, unfortunately.
Thanks for the tip on the Stokowski 5th. I will get on the net and try to find a copy. Can't have too many. Thank you again.
.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
/
I bought this recording when it came out. The sound reproduction is outstanding, especially in mch surround. The performance is also excellent, but it is nowhere as powerful as the Kondrashin recording with Artur Eizen (which has better sound than the one with Gromadsky singing).
The Eizen/Kondrashin version uses the "softened" text that makes the first movement not so clearly about anti-Semitism. As a non-Russian speaker, that doesn't matter to me, because I know what the poet and the composer intended. I don't know if any recordings other than Kondrashin's Soviet performances use that expurgated text.
Photo of DDS and Yevgeny Yevtushenko (with Irina Shostakovich behind) just after the premiere on Dec. 18th. There would have been a lot of nervous relief...likely more nervous than relief. Another performance (with the same authority-non-approved texts, by God!) was given two nights later and was the one recorded for release. Palpable tension in the hall is felt. Pic courtesy of dschjournal.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I couldn't resist surround 24/44.1 for the price!
,
Madeline says it's bigly hideous! ;-)
(She'd never heard it before.)
Really, turned up ALL the way?
I couldn't come close to that without leaving the house!
50-60% on my Tube Gear, and 10:30 on the Solid Stage Gear, usually a good bit less, depending on Music and Source Component.
I regularly get my ears blown out on gigs, don't want that at home...
It was about 50% - I'd get thrown out of the house if it was much more than that! ;-)
Ah, got it!
Being thrown out is better than being blown out, tho.
Not fair. I can't listen until tonight. Don't you just love the way the sound in that hall expands without becoming harsh?
don't even bother if you don't pay careful attention to that. The history here is vital.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
When music is dependent on its text or its non-musical background to such an extent, so much the worse for the music itself. Unfortunately, this kind of dependence occurs far too often in far too many of Shostakovitch's works. And as I've said before, this situation has given rise to a certain class of listeners who consider themselves Shostakovitch experts just because they've been initiated into the secret non-musical background (culled from the pages of "Testimony" and other crap musical literature) of many of Shostakovitch's works. Music should rise or fall on the basis of its own merit - not because of some story about some evil Kommissar.
you're probably right, but I still wonder if I don't hear "Nazi" when I listen to Wagner.
Jeremy
Shosty stands on its own. Just consider the string quartets. They are the quintessential reference for rainy, overcast themes via shosty's tonal palette which consists of grey, grey and then some more grey. Shosty is my favorite composer because he brings out emotions thru dissonance and the heavy tonal pallet.
I liked shosty long before I read of his background and context.
All this said, to each his own. I don't like Mozart , but love shosty.
a miserable, cold, windy, bleak, gray winter afternoon, watching the sleet or freezing rain outside while downing a tumbler or two of straight vodka. Shostakovich is all about quintessentially Russian black comedy or blacker tragedy.
As French as Debussy is, as British as Elgar is, as American as Copland is, as Spanish as Granados is, as Hungarian as Bartok is, Shostakovich is even more Russian. Those who can't or won't put themselves in that frame of mind may as well go elsewhere.
Pretty much sums it up.
I would rather listen to almost any other Russian composer. Wait a minute - strike the "almost" from that sentence!
The problem with Shostakovitch is not that he's Russian. No, the real problem is that he often writes very poor-quality music IMHO! Which is then often excused (even venerated!) by a coterie of listeners who insist that the subjective quality of the music will greatly improve, if only one studies the tangential, non-musical aspects of the works sufficiently well.)
To paraphrase Playboy readers, I only listen to Shostakovich for the music.
Classic!
At the risk of igniting a semantics debate, I'd suggest that in the case of many of Shostakovich's works--aside, for example, from his reliance on Yevtushenko's text in the Thirteenth--it might be more accurate to portray the music as not so much dependent on its non-musical background as reflective or evocative or expositive of it (the Fifth, Seventh, Eighth, Ninth, Tenth, and Fifteenth Symphonies, as well as the Eighth String Quartet, come to mind). You may consider that a distinction without a difference, but to me it sets the tone, if you will, for how I'll listen to the piece and determine whether it "speaks" to me "musically".
I'm no Shostakovich "expert", though I've read what you deem "crap" in addition to any number of other works and commentaries and actually have the protagonist of one of my unpublished novels interview the composer, which in turn leads Shostakovich to provide the solution to one of the protagonist's thorniest problems. But I think context (including what you call "non-musical background") is not necessarily detractive from (nor condemnatory of) a composer's work. I mean, what's Fantastique without Harriet Smithson?
Okay, I got that out of my system. I'll just conclude by saying that Shostakovich gets a lot of playtime here. Mostly because of the music itself.
:-)
Jim
http://jimtranr.com
No need for historical perspective. I liked Shostakovich long before reading about him.
n
the history in the text: the vast mass murder at Babi Yar, the persecution and tenacity of singular geniuses, the quiet dignity and suffering of Russian women, etc. With this piece, it IS mainly about the text; the music is primarily, and wonderfully, supportive.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Edits: 03/25/17
unless one wants to try to integrate Yevtushenko's text with music from The Nutcracker rather than the music Shostakovich composed for the work.
They're both Russians, but somehow I don't think it would work.
Chris is just jealous because he's not in the secret club, unless the password is "Resurrection," "Pathetique" or "Moonlight." : )
When MWE says that "It's all about the textual content... don't even bother if you don't pay careful attention to that. The history here is vital", and you say, "It stands on its own. . . no need for historical perspective", I say both of those statements can't be true about the same piece at the same time.
Sorry, I don't want to bother with music which merely supports a text, or which needs a history lesson in order to make sense. As I said, music either stands or falls on its own. In any case, music is the higher art and it soars to the heavens. The denotative aspect of words (in literature and history) shouldn't drag it back down to earth.
And, BTW, I speak as one who is totally moved by the music of the inventor of the symphonic poem, Franz Liszt. But in Liszt's music, the poetry is merely the stimulus for the music - it does not determine the boundaries of the music.
You're simply reassured (release endorphins here) by whatever music that meets your expectations, or follows cultural rules which you deem righteous.
Liszt as an exemplar of coherence? Really????
I hope that you have your Shostakovich epiphany some day, but if you don't, that's OK too.
But I think you're exaggerating MWE's point.
. . . of Shostakovitch fans, and it's a way of listening to music which I (if I may say so) profoundly disagree with. Sure, I came on pretty strong, but I'm not saying that this way of listening can't provide a certain level of satisfaction to these listeners though. As MWE has already said, de gustibus non est disputandum (although I'm unsure what part of speech he was using for disputandum!).
And now, after all this "weeping and gnashing of the teeth" discussion, here's the kicker: despite Madeline's description of the first movement as "hideous", I actually don't think the work (the Symphony No. 13) is that bad (at least for Shostakovitch!). I don't think I'd have ordered the download otherwise, even at the attractive price!
You know, it's very interesting that, just by chance, the woman I married shares so many of the same points of view about music that I do: skepticism, even denigration, of HIP, certain composers (Shostakovitch!), or certain performers (Barenboim, Schwartzkopf, et al). And I guess the only three areas where we disagree (musically!) are (1) German mainstream composers vs. Russians and Eastern Europeans (she's more likely to be dismissive of, say, Glazunov's music, while I don't share her love of the standard German repertoire, at least at the level she rates it), (2) what she calls "fluff" music (technically difficult music which most listeners would claim lacks "substance" - e.g., Godowsky transcriptions of Strauss Waltzes - I love these types of pieces and she doesn't), and (3) babe musicians (even though she admits that Yuja and Lisa - and a couple others - are pretty darned good)! ;-)
BTW, just a heads up: Madeline is about to "publish or publish" again (about her favorite anathema - too much undocumented editing on present-day recordings). I'll provide the details later.
I'm definitely not getting involved in your debate with jdaniel over the merits of Shostakovich, except to say jdaniel's comment about the banality of parts of his work is telling. I see that banality as intentional, and very much part of the dour, cynical, and bleak aspects of his personality that are often at the fore in his music. Even his taste for humor, and he does very much have one, is most often for ironic, black humor.
It takes immense skill to convey all of that downbeat stuff as effectively as he does, and he does it with music alone. You don't need the context of the holocaust or the siege of Leningrad, or any text, even when he sets his music to one, to get his message.
Still, it's an acquired taste, like Angostura bitters or uni (sea urchin sushi), or midwinter "polar bear" ocean swimming. I'm not going to try to sell you on it.
BTW -- Your wife doesn't share your interest in babe musicians?? What a surprise. ;-)
And I seem to be having trouble making my point, which is that many Shostakovitch fans attempt to excuse his musical banality by bringing in all sorts of non-musical justifications for it. (Ooh! What courage he had, thumbing his nose at Stalin!) Of course, I'm not saying that ALL of Shostakovitch's music is worthless and banal, but the proportion is just too high IMHO. Stalin should have sent him to Siberia - maybe the sojourn would have improved his style when he got out. ;-)
Re Madeline and my interest in babe musicians: she'll often cut the discussion short by asking, "Do you REALLY think I'd be interested in this at all?". Yup, she's a Debbie Downer about babe musicians alright.
I'm not going to try to convince you to jump in. And no two of us have the same opinion as to what is worthy and what is worthless. Anyone who has been to an auction knows that.
We've already been through the "de gustibus" part of the discussion. But I do take some solace in the fact that you and jdaniel at least recognize that there IS banality in Shostakovitch's music. And to make my point for the last time in this discussion (I hope - LOL!), no amount of non-musical justification can really excuse it, or make it into something great - at least IMHO.
for me, when it comes to pure intellectual brilliance, perceptiveness and a keen musical ear, Shostakovich is second only to Stravinsky among all Russian composers, and orders of magnitude ahead of the others. Whether those attributes add up to "greatness" or whether you look for something more, or something else, is entirely up to you.
His music puts the banality, the oppression and the cruelty he saw in his society into sharp focus. He offers no escape or respite, even in his comedy. Look at the story of Lieutenant Kije and the inept and craven military administrators he ridicules so sharply and effectively. Nobody else could or would do quite the same thing so well.
And indeed, that's a piece that shows the difference between a real master (Prokofiev) and an also-ran (Shostakovitch), who, for reasons I can't fathom, does have his followers. ;-)
Both brilliant satires. I'm a big Prokofiev fan as well, of course.
Although the sub-titles seem to be in Japanese in the uTube performance linked below, the sung text is full of praise to Stalin, "the father of nations" and "the great agronomer" - sometimes the work is performed with an expurgated text, with the Stalin references removed! Of course, Prokofiev wrote "Zdravitsa" or "[Birthday] Toast [to Stalin]" which Richter claimed was one Prokofiev's very best works. (I don't know if I agree with that!)
Here's Temirkanov leading a joint Japanese-Russian performance in 2006, by which time Leiferkus had a pretty bad wobble:
EVERYONE, (except the authorities) and none more than DDS, considered SOTF to be complete crud. Now, this thread is likely done for me, but I'd like to make one more comment. I just finished listening to the Eighth Symphony. The "relevee' " last movement, after the slow passacaglia, is one of the most marvelous and joyful pieces of music I've ever heard. It wouldn't know banality if banality bit it on the butt. Thanks all, great thread!
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
The really funny thing is, Prokofiev had the same flair for Russian-style anti-authoritarian satire that Shostakovich had. The difference being, Shostakovich had that trademark serious, dark, gloomy personality. Prokofiev, though every bit as much of a musical genius, was reportedly an immature, childlike, boorish brat, not unlike Mozart. His music on the whole is much less harsh and easier to stomach. Ed. I find the 2nd and 3rd symphonies of Shostakovich hard to stomach, especially the 2nd. But those are youthful works.
The politics or textual setting of these composers means little to me. Sure, Lieutenant Kije and Alexander Nevsky are great, classic movies. Peter and the Wolf is a great children's story written by Prokofiev himself when he was dissatisfied with the story originally proposed to him. The Nose is also a great classic. But that alone doesn't make the music great or meaningful.
I should know all about Lieutenant Kije, since I played the solo flute part in my college orchestra. Oh well, advancing age, you know.
Edits: 03/29/17
nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
. . . then what was Temirkanov doing performing it in 2006 - and in Japan no less? Inquiring minds want to know.
(BTW, Temirkanov's CD of the work has been one of the cornerstones of my Shostakovitch collection for years - no joke!)
And what can't there ever be an album for Shostakovich only, without Prokofiev? That just adds to my middle-aged confusion.
Fortunately, there is no law that says you have to listen to every last piece by a composer, even one of the greats. I certainly keep that in mind for Beethoven.
OK, I admit I bought that CD for the Prokofiev "On Guard for Peace" cantata, not the Shostakovitch. However, this CD was in fact my SECOND purchase of "Song of the Forests", which I also had on LP, back in the days when I had an LP of another great, important work by Shostakovitch, "The Sun Shines Over Our Motherland".
I say again: if any music by Shostakovitch achieves true greatness, these cantatas are the ones!
(BTW, I'm actually surprised by how many recordings of "Song of the Forests" are available these days!)
I'm glad SOMEONE likes Stalinist music. DDS held his nose composing these.
Had to post ONE last time to thread. Promise.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
nt.
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
N
But the fact is, Mahler does it far, far less than Shostakovitch - at least as I hear it.
Yeah, I like Mahler just fine (over 80 recordings of the Fifth!), but, right now, I'd say he's rated a bit higher then his music deserves. I think that a factor in Mahler's popularity lies in the fact that his music has now become a vehicle to show off orchestral virtuosity. (And no doubt, the same is true with Shostakovitch.)
There was a time when Mahler's music was not universally respected, to say the least. I saw an interview of Leonard Bernstein in which he relates that when he began working on it with the Vienna Philharmonic, not all of the orchestra's players were happy, to put it mildly.
Yet nowadays nobody questions Mahler's place among the major composers. Musical taste is a funny thing.
"There was a time when Mahler's music was not universally respected, to say the least."
I was late to appreciat Mahler, REALLY late, but I knew the problem was ME and not that of Mahler. As a dyed in the wool 'rhomantic', it's taken me a while to learn to appreciate music within its own context. As I posted here earlier, I don't think it would make any sense to set Yevtushenko's writing to music from The Nutcracker, even though it's Russian, but WTFDIK I'm not a musicologist.
That said I'm putting the boys pictured above in my VERY late group of composers for appreciation.
As in the years after my passing. =:-0
N
I'm sommat of a Mahler fan.
Jeremy
I think there are simply very different thought processes/mindsets going on here, and that's just the way it is. Nobody's going to "make" anyone like something they don't already, not at our ages (though certainly tastes can change- mine do continually as my knowledge of music increases). But nothing wrong with trying to be open-minded. (Am I being too "banal" here? :-) ) Musical styles are just different kinds of tools composers use to accomplish their goals, and not everyone likes all those tools.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
is doing. It's all about trust.
MANY great and moving words out there well-supported by music. But of course, di gustibus non disputatum. (although there seems to be quite a bit of that here- sine qua non?)
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I am more economical than you: I have very few at all. Not that I didn't try.
Jeremy
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