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With active threads on Dvorak 9 and Tych 6. We might be halfway there?
We have to define if a (War)Horse is an over played great work, so Nielsen 5 is out because it is great and not played enough. Or a just a great work, like Beethoven 5 which can never be played enough?
Gregg
Follow Ups:
Brahms One
Beethoven Nine
Sibelius Two
Mahler One
Because some of the ones listed by others, I almost never see on concert programs. And I don't listen to radio.
That said, my list of 4 is:
1. Anything by Shostakovich
2. Anything by Stravinsky
3. Anything by Mahler
4. Anything by Mozart
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
That's why I cited the League of American Orchestras annual ranking. You and Chris can't argue with actual data. OK, actually, you both can and do argue with actual data ;-)
I mean, are Mozart's six delightful piano and violin sonatas, K. 10-15, written when he was a child, overplayed "warhorses"?
How about Stravinsky's brilliant Octet for winds?
Just because something is played often does not mean it is overplayed. There is music I never tire of. Dvorak 9 falls into that category for me.
Alternatively, just because something is not in the top 10 of performance frequency does not mean it isn't overplayed. Some music falls into that "never want to hear it ever again" category because we've heard it like 10 million times already and even once more is too many.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I very much doubt you've heard the Mozart K. 10-15 sonatas or the Stravinsky Octet 10 million times. And there are even less well-known pieces by both Mozart and Stravinsky, so everything by those composers isn't a "warhorse".
Gosh, even everything by Gliere isn't a warhorse.
By the way, a "warhorse" is something that is so often performed it has become widely familiar. Subjective taste doesn't enter into it.
That is - a universally overplayed composer - there is only one choice:
Bach.
Original, transcribed, extra crispy, everyone plays, records and muzaks Bach.
Gregg
It means a piece that's played so much everyone knows it.
I just wanted to say big tent, anyway we were off the topic of warhorse and on to the warelephant in the room.
If I had been given two more choices, they would have been:
5. Anything by Haydn
6. Anything by Adams
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I think we nailed it pretty easily!
For me Mahler 9 is out for the same reason Beethoven 5 is out. I've spent very little money on audio over the last few years, though I'm still accumulating LPs and CDs, instead I have been to a lot of concerts, so yes one can hear toooo much Brahms. Large force orchestral Mozart, well, I just don't go to those concerts.
For me:
Brahms 4
Dvorak 9
Rach 2
Tch 6
Rach 2 or Schubert 8. Depending on frequency (Schubert) or limited value as a warhorse (Rach) - I'm a harsh judge. Luckily even the old timers are too young to remember when Grofe walk the earth.
I'm Tempted to include Sibelius 2 or Shostakovich 5. Honorable mention is Verklärte Nacht; there was a year that every startup chamber organization in NYC played that work. I agree that non-symphonic works like RK Scheherazade & Mussorgsky/Ravel, Pictures might also figure in.
My personal Desert Island Warhorses, the darkness of the works would provide shade.
Sibelius 4
Mahler 5
Nielsen 5
Beethoven 5
Maybe I'd sneak in Saint Saens 3 to lighten the load?
Thanks all!
Gregg
There'd be definite room issues with hearing the organ pedal tones.
Gd
If I count the number of discs in my computer log, the following will be likeBeethoven 5
Schubert 8
Beethoven 3
Mozart 40
Beethoven 9 (!)Brahms or Mahler did not squeez into the contest.
And if you count the Symphonie Fantastique in, it will probably beat the Beethoven 5.
AND, if you count the Scheherazade in, it ends the game.
Edits: 03/07/17
My Four (War)Horse symphonies of the Apocalypse:I admit that including number 9 is a stretch, but, these days, I do not generally look forward to yet another Mahler 1, 2 or 4. And wasn't there one year recently (maybe more than one) when the Mahler symphonies were played more than the symphonies of Beethoven and Brahms COMBINED? That's just not right. ;-)
- Mahler 1
- Mahler 2
- Mahler 4
- Mahler 9
Edits: 03/07/17
True, Mahler went from virtually forgotten to a popular fad, thanks to Leonard Bernstein and a few other crusaders. But the League of American Orchestras publishes the most performed list every year, and Mahler symphonies do not figure prominently. Here is the list from 2010-2011:
1. Brahms, Symphony No. 1
2. Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition
3. Tchaikovsky, Concerto No. 1 for Piano and Orchestra
4. Beethoven, Concerto No. 4 for Piano and Orchestra
5. Beethoven, Symphony No. 7
6. Liszt, Concerto No. 1 for Piano and Orchestra
7. Berlioz, Symphonie fantastique
8. Sibelius, Concerto in D minor for Violin and Orchestra
9. Tchaikovsky, Concerto in D major for Violin and Orchestra
10. Brahms, Symphony No. 4
In most years, Beethoven's 5th ranks very high, as does Smetana's The Bartered Bride and Glinka's Ruslan and Lyudmila overture, Berlioz' Le Corsair overture, and some others not on this particular top ten list. But it seems many of the same top 50 cycle in and out of the top ten list year by year. The length of Mahler symphonies probably keeps them from being programmed more often.
aw CRAP. you listed pix and fantastique, well at least you didn't mention Petruchka.
...regards...tr
Actually, I think Petrouchka made the top ten last year! Keep in mind this is NOT my list, but a list by the League of American Orchestras of the most often programmed works by member orchestras each season.
Mozart 40
Beethoven 5
Tchaik 6
Dvorak 9
All great works but played a LOT, live and broadcast.
If we're limiting the list to four and Dvorak 9 and Tchaik 6 are two, I'd go with Rach 2 and Saint-Saens 3. Next for me would be Beethoven 5 and Schubert 8. Then Brahms 4 and Schubert 9. Then Tchaik 5 and Brahms 1.
Your inclusion of the Organ Symphony leads me to insist that a "Warhorse" be over-performed in concerts, not merely over-played at home.
Dowager wives of mining, shipping, and maufacturing benefactors who dominate orchestral boards of directors have a 19th Century aesthetic that makes the above list of Dvorak 9, Beethoven 5, Mozart 40, and Tchaikowsy 6 my choice as well.
For proof see the elderly female box-holders who ran Boulez out of Cleveland.
he didn't mean BATTLEAX.
...regards...tr
I was thinking about actual, live concerts more than what people listen to at home. With technology these days, I have no idea what other people listen to at home. You will rarely hear any full symphony on what's left of classical radio these days.
Edit: But "warhorse" means very often played and well-known, not (necessarily) overplayed.
Edits: 03/07/17
I'll add the slow movements of Mahler's 3rd and 5th* symphonies as one. :-)
* I want that Adagietto to be playing as fade away to heaven.
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Tin-eared audiofool, large-scale-Classical music lover, and damned-amateur fotografer.
William Bruce Cameron: "...not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
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