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In Reply to: RE: Recommendations wanted: Haydn Violin Concerto in C Major posted by jec01 on January 26, 2017 at 08:01:22
It's a bit too fast to capture all the emotion though.
Follow Ups:
. . . (and also available with quad tracks), there's always Pinchas Zukerman and the LAPO:
I very much admire Zukerman's wise and carefully considered comments about HIP:
Gifted violinist, violist, and conductor Pinchas Zukerman has this to say about the HIP (Historically Informed Performance) movement:Gosh. . . I couldn't have said it better myself! ;-)"I disagree with everything they do," Zukerman says emphatically. "From the minute I heard that in 1972 to today (I said), 'What the (expletive) is that? These are professional musicians?'" He calls the movement a fad and contends that digital recording has falsely represented the sound of period ensembles. "If you hear them in public - which I have - one is amazed at how bad it sounds and out of tune."
The string instruments that period groups play are dubbed "cigar boxes." Conductors such as Christopher Hogwood and Roger Norrington, pioneers in the field, are dismissed as no-talents who have ruined classical music. "They don't know how to conduct. They certainly don't know how to play. And who's going to say that?"
Edits: 01/26/17
Zukerman also recorded the Haydn concertos on RCA. Great sound. Plenty of copies are available on Amazon. I don't know the Pentatone recording, but I greatly enjoy the RCA.
I love Zukerman's scorched-earth rhetoric about HIP. It's refreshingly frank. He expressed similar views in an interview with Fanfare magazine several years ago.
. . . I don't have access to it. (Otherwise, I'd probably post quotes from that interview too - OTOH, I don't want jdaniel to get too apoplectic!)
Edits: 01/27/17
N
though.... : )
Man, it's just opinions. (But I'm glad we're all passionate about them!)
I'll admit that I'm a little irked over Z"s hyperbole, but what's wrong with that? (Viagra-besotted couch commando sports aficionados pull out each other's last remaining strands of hair arguing over the latest draft picks all the time.)I suspect that HIP profits have likely subsidized Z's latest recordings and have sometimes covered the violinist's losses. So sure: why not throw a little condescension his way? : )
Edits: 01/27/17
And, gosh, I have my own suspicions about how Zukerman's recordings have covered a lot of HIP losses. ;-)
J
As I've pointed out in this thread, for all his nasty rhetoric, what baroque music has Zukerman given us other than the usual Bach and Vivaldi standards? Very little. The HIPsters, OTOH, have given us a lot of great baroque and renaissance music that Zukerman et al. almost never play, in addition to their versions of the Four Seasons and the Brandenburg Concertos.
Not surprisingly, Zukerman's attitude was shared by many of the star violin soloists of the mid-20th century "golden age". As far as they were concerned, the HIP movement, which had already begun, did nothing for them, since their baroque repertoire consisted mainly of the music their own teachers and mentors had played in the late 19th century, and they had long since mastered their teachers' approach to that music. But a lot of great baroque music wasn't being played at all in the late 19th century.
And I don't need no stinkin' viagra.
Puhleeeze! Total jealousy.
"I call it [HIP] a slight furuncle. . . it's like a diseased little aspect of what we are as a society - and hopefully we will find real medication for it to go away in the future."
I swear, that guy has a way with words! ;-)
Seems pretty collectable to me! ;-)
Ooh! - And I see someone is trying to unload one of his St. Paul Chamber Orchestra LP's for $89.99!
And in any case, what's determined by collectability anyway? One of the most collectable violinists is Johanna Martzy - the object of a cult following. (I have to admit that I'm in this particular cult however!)
F
"[HIP] - a diseased little aspect of what we are as a society"! ;-)
If Rattle has the audacity to record another Beethoven cycle, I'd say Classical music is doing pretty well. : )
In fact, weren't Zukerman and Stern were BFF's? Of course, Stern didn't have the colorful way with words that Zukerman has. ;-)
A disease, as Zuckerman calls it, is something that competes, right? : )Competes.... Takes up precious resources....That's where the violinist's true issue is revealed. Zuckerman knows that there are plenty of "traditional" violinists doing just fine today in spite of HIP and enjoying more of the spotlight and press than him.
Edits: 01/26/17
such is his mis-placed anger.
His baroque repertoire consists almost entirely of 18th century "high baroque" Bach and Vivaldi. Their music is particularly amenable to modernization. Bach's dense counterpoint responds well to equal temperament, which was invented in the 1720s but didn't really take hold until after the baroque era. Scholars believe the Well Tempered Clavier was written for a tuning system attributed to Andreas Werckmeister that is a predecessor of equal temperament, but I think Bach would have been delighted with equal temperament and modern keyboard instruments. Heck, his music even sounds good with a Moog synthesizer.
Vivaldi wrote endless variations on his grand, elaborate concerto grosso, that work well with larger ensembles and louder instruments as well as equal temperament.
The baroque music we consider the best or most important today doesn't entirely correspond to what was most celebrated at the time, and I think a major factor is how well the music adapts to modern instruments, tuning and performance practices. Early baroque and renaissance music is very seldom heard today except from the HIPsters, also I think because it is least adaptable to modern performance.
At the moment, though, I like HIP (certain performers) applied to the high baroque as well, mainly because of the heightened sense of dance elements, and the extra "colors" and "textures" that the instruments afford.
If you'll indulge me, listen to #3, Allegro, from La Primavera, (Vivaldi's Four Seasons) below. Wonderful! Lilting! (And if people like Tasmin Little's recent Four Seasons with montovani- oops, modern strings, that's wonderful too!)
Thanks, jdaniel. I liked to the Seiler/Academie fur Alte Musik Berlin samples for Spring and Winter. They appeal to me. Another to go on the list.
Lots of other recordings appeal to me as well: Tognetti/Australian Chamber Orchestra, Fabio Bionde/Europa Galante, Kremer/ECO, the Julia Fischer/ASMF recording from YouTube, the ancient Loveday/ASMF and Virtuosi di Roma recordings.
I'm open to all sorts of recordings, Hip or not.
Zuckerman? I listening to him in a Vivaldi concerto right now and enjoying it. An album with various violin and orchestra pieces by Beethoven, Dvorak and Schubert has been a favorite for a couple of decades.
Zuckerman's opinion of Hip? Hip musicians and their recordings exist in spite of his rants.
Chris's periodic rants: He needs a new speech. We've all heard this one.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
Hey man, this isn't MY speech in this thread, it's Zukerman's. I'm only the poor, benighted messenger! ;-)EDIT: p.s., you're right that this subject has probably run its course here, so I'll get back to the subjects which renew one's interest in life and art, such as babe pianists and babe violinists, forthwith. ;-)
Edits: 01/27/17
But only referring to them by their first names, of course. ;-)
Very nice. And let's not forget there's great French and English baroque music too. Without the HIPsters, you wouldn't hear very much of it.
Edits: 01/27/17
most likely that would only be an indication that they were rare, which most likely in turn would be an indication that Zukerman wasn't an especially popular or celebrated performer when the LPs were issued originally, or at least that his LPs weren't very popular. Of course, even if that were the case, it could just mean that he was underappreciated, not that he was a bad violinist or violist. And there are other reasons LPs are rare.However, a quick check of popsike shows that there is only one Zukerman LP that routinely sells for high prices -- the UK EMI issue of Beethoven trios with du Pre and your hero, Barenboim. That one likely is sought by collectors due to Jacqueline du Pre, whose career was cut very short due to multiple sclerosis, as you surely know.
FWIW, I like many of Zukerman's recordings very much. However, the comments you quote are pretty foolish. Among many other things, the baroque music typically played by modern ensembles or star soloists like him, mostly by Bach, Handel and Vivaldi, is especially amenable to modern styles and instruments. That isn't a coincidence. Other baroque music that isn't as successful on modern instruments is seldom heard from the standard repertoire stars and modern ensembles.
Edits: 01/26/17 01/26/17
I have that Mozart record. I don't remember how good the sq is, but I remember really enjoying the performance. If I'm ever down to my last $90, maybe I'll unload it.
We saw Zukerman with the Baltimore Symphony under Zinman in the 1990s, playing the Elgar concerto. He was magnificent.
Happy listening,
Jim
"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno
N
Another dream dashed.
Happy listening,
Jim
"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno
As you said on the Vinyl Forum, digital sound is the devil's music......
Maybe that is why it's considered an 'improvement'?
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