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In Reply to: RE: "The personality is in the music" posted by Rick W on January 07, 2017 at 21:52:57
The question is: what "value add" does the conductor provide just by being there? I think you're possibly exaggerating what I wrote about Kertesz set: I said it sounded A BIT anonymous - I didn't say it was completely bland or lame, although I'll say again that, to my ears, it does have less of a point of view than the Neumann digital recordings (or, in the New World, the Fricsay, Ancerl, Klemperer, Reiner, Paray, Giulini, Harnoncourt, etc., recordings) do. I owned some (not all) of the Kertesz recordings back in my LP days, and then got the complete Kertesz set on CD sometime in the 90's (since jettisoned), and I still have the Kertesz "The Originals" disc of symphonies 8 and 9 - so it's not as if I haven't kept in touch with these performances.And, BTW, there IS a Czech conductor whose Dvorak performances I've considered similarly anodyne to the Kertesz performances, and that's Belohlavek. I haven't heard his new set of the Dvorak symphonies (just released last year, I think), but his earlier Dvorak performances had what I consider a similarly weak profile to the Kertesz performances. And yet. . . Ivan Moravec spoke very highly to me of Belohlavek, and I've been told that the Detroit Symphony members loved working with him - probably similar to the respect that the Cleveland Orchestra members had for Kertesz (per pbarach's post below). So there you go: de gustibus and all that.
Edits: 01/08/17 01/08/17Follow Ups:
The one Kertesz Dvorak I didn't like was New World. Had it and got rid of it. That one I did feel was too bland. I now have a HvK version and Walter. Suffice it to say, I haven't found a New World that really grabs me and has good sound. I'm starting to wonder if I just don't dig the piece that much.
I don't normally look to one conductor for all of one composer's symphs. I don't own ANY box sets of all of one composer's symphs. by ANY conductor - except Kertesz's Dvorak (sans New World), and I bought each of Kertesz's LP's separately.
But I'm also unlike many inmates on this forum in that I'm much less curious about different versions of pieces. When I find versions that satisfy me and allow me to be immersed in the music - including recording sound - I don't continue to seek out 20 other recordings of the same piece.
Remember, I'm a jazzer first and don't have unlimited resources. I'd much rather spend money and listening time on NEW jazz and/or NEW "classical" compositions than buy my 5th version of a Beethoven Symphony.
When I read posts from some inmates rapping about the 15 (or more) versions of some piece they own my eyes glaze over. Obviously I do hear differences between conductors' versions, but those differences are relatively small compared to jazz. "Classical" is MUCH more composer centric. After all, no conductor is gonna change Dvorak's voicings, give the clarinet part to trumpets in harmon mute, alter Dvorak's form, change the keys, give the oboe player an unwritten solo, change the first movement to salsa or go double-time in the last movement.
While I'm not married to Kertesz's Dvorak, they're the most appealing I've heard, the sound is good, and his versions are certainly more than adequate for me to enjoy listening to Dvorak's music. Its Dvorak that is the real interest for me, not conductor X.
There is another Kertesz recording of the New World Symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra on Decca. That one has been my very favorite for 4+ decades.
The Kertesz / LSO recording of the 8th Symphony is my very favorite for that symphony.
I don't find Chris's criterion that a conductor should deliver a point of view to be relevant to my choices. I choose on the basis of two questions: did I enjoy listening to the recording and will I want to listen to it again?
A number of recordings of Dvorak works pass my tests. The ones I go back to often are
6th Symphony: Kertesz/LSO, Rowicki/LSO and Ancerl/Czech PO
7th Symphony: Szell/ Cleveland, Kertesz/LSO, Rowicki/ LSO, Monteux/LSO
8th Symphony: Kertesz/LSO, Szell/ Cleveland, Mackerras/Prague SO, Barbirolli/Halle Orchestra
9th Symphony: Kertesz/VPO, Szell/Cleveland, Rowicki/LSO, Mackerras/Prague SO, Kondrashin/VPO
I've got Neumann and Kubelik recordings but I don't revisit them very often.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
. . . wow! Aside from the Mackerras recordings, aren't you the least bit curious as to what has been happening in recordings of this music since the 70's? Or do you simply dismiss stuff that's been recorded since the 70's? Not that there's anything wrong with the versions you mention (I certainly like most of the recordings on your list too - well, maybe except for the Monteux recording of the Seventh!), but music making just didn't stop in the 70's.
And BTW, perhaps I wasn't clear on this, but I don't necessarily want to be aware of a strong "point of view" in a recorded interpretation. What I was really talking about was something perhaps more intangible - a sense that the players are aware of how their individual parts fit in the total concept and overall context of the music. A conductor can impart that feeling among the players, and an audience can sense it, even if the interpretation is pretty middle of the road.
". . . wow! Aside from the Mackerras recordings, aren't you the least bit curious as to what has been happening in recordings of this music since the 70's? Or do you simply dismiss stuff that's been recorded since the 70's? Not that there's anything wrong with the versions you mention (I certainly like most of the recordings on your list too - well, maybe except for the Monteux recording of the Seventh!), but music making just didn't stop in the 70's."
I merely said that my criteria were different from yours and listed recordings that I come back to often. You know nothing about what other recordings I own or have heard.
You may feel that affirmative action for musicians requires that I give equal attention to and equal affection for recent recordings by currently active musicians.
I'll go right on making my own decisions about what to buy and what to return to regularly. A recording can be a fresh discovery for me whether it was recorded this year, 10 years ago or 30 or fifty.
For the record, vinyl isn't a factor for me now.
How about making a positive contribution to this thread by listing and describing some recent recordings of note of the Dvorak symphonies?
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
I did mention other sets in one of my other posts on this thread, but, if you want specifics, here are just a few:
I have one caveat with this recording and that is the edition of the E-flat symphony (No. 3) which Macal uses, which, amazingly, does not correspond to ANY version of the symphony that Dvorak actually knew in his own lifetime. I don't know of any other recording of this symphony that uses this edition (a Simrock edition, which came out after Dvorak had already died). Despite its weaknesses (near the end of the first movement especially), it's still interesting to hear.
Also, Pesek's set was just reissued last year:
Pesek divides the works between the RLPO and the CzPO - I had some of the individual discs when they were first issued. I believe that Pesek had his own jazz band before he started getting into classical conducting (perhaps a bit like Andre Previn I guess, and a few others), and I find he often brings a fresh viewpoint to many of his interpretations. As a matter of fact, I just ordered this set myself - some of the Amazon resellers have it at an extremely low price.
BTW, I totally agree with your statement, "A recording can be a fresh discovery for me whether it was recorded this year, 10 years ago or 30 or fifty." The same is true for me too. Nevertheless, your list did appear a bit confined to me (with regard to release dates) - but, hey, each to his own! ;-)
Chris, thanks for the info on more recent recordings.
I had not been aware of the Macal recordings with the CzPO on Exton. IThe Macal/Miulwaukee Symphony recordings on Koss were hard to find back when I was looking and not cheap. I saw good reviews but I never managed to buy one of the CDs.
I was aware of the Pesek recordings on eVrgin. I have the 4th and 5th symphonies; neither performance convinced me that the 4th or 5th were something I wanted to listen to very often. The CDs also included the Czech Suite. Not a successful performance.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
Those Macal/Milwaukee performances (the couple that I heard anyway) seemed bogged down by what I heard as unattractively dry and damped sound on the recordings. His cycle with the CzPO (at least the two albums I show) has all the reverberation one would need - possibly even too much, I'm sure, for some listeners, but I like it a lot.
Regarding the Pesek recordings, I had those two CD's that you mention too. I really liked them, but I was already a fan of those symphonies from the older 50's and 60's recordings by Neumann and the Prague SO (for No. 4) and Sejna and the CzPO (for No. 5). In any case, I'll soon be getting a chance to re-evaluate the Pesek recordings! ;-)
Good info about the two sets of Macal recordings. I usually prefer recordings with a fairly close perspective and less reverb. as opposed to more. I might not find a Goldilocks recording in either set.
I've loved Dvorak's 8th and 9th symphonies from the first time I heard them. Later, the 6th was easy to like. I want to enjoy more of the symphonies and I try. I listen to #7 fairly often and get some pleasure from it. Listening to 1-5 is a duty with little reward. Fortunately for me, there is a lot of other Dvorak that I thoroughly enjoy.
my blog: http://carsmusicandnature.blogspot.com/
I should mention another recommendable MCH high-res. cycle of the Dvorak symphonies, now underway. Marcus Bosch and the Nürnberg Staatsphilharmonie SACD on Coviello Classics. Very nicely done in SOTA surround sound --and very much worth a listen!
John Proffitt
Even at 44.1/16 streaming on QOBUZ.
Great to see these regional European orchestras and young conductors getting the chance to produce great recordings.
Thanks and keep the tips coming!
I actually treasure an earlier recording by Marcus Bosch (Mendelssohn's Lobgesang Symphony) on a Nishimura DVD-Audio. I believe that Tatsuo Nishimura recorded the proceedings in a very similar way to the method you use: five omnidirectional microphones (one for each channel).
Yeah, but decent vinyl did.
We vinyl guys kinda ran into a dead end what with the oil crises, crappy recycled noisy vinyl (melted down records with the labels still attached) and then CD's... :-(
BTW, I'll be gone the rest of today, and won't have an opportunity to reply until tonight. (And who knows, the way things are going, the electricity may be out here by then!)
But just to reiterate, I'm in agreement that what you've posted will work for a lot of listeners, including yourself, and I have no problem with that at all. But there are other listeners, including me, who get all worked up over the relatively small differences in performances of certain classical works. It's all part of the spice of life! ;-)
I was listening to classical music almost around the clock from early childhood. So, I've heard the top 500, or even the top 1,000 classical hits, a whole lot. I can play large sections of many of them by ear, even if I've never seen the score. So a spiffy new high-def multi-channel of the New World, or the Pathetique, or the Spring, or the Jupiter, or the Pastoral, or the Inextinguishable, or the "- Of A Thousand" (hey, this is fun), is fine, but probably not as interesting to me as a convincing performance of something entirely new, or old but infamiliar. Even if most of what is entirely new is less than convincing.
I just listened. Kertesz and the LSO take the first movement of the New World a touch too slow. For me, it should canter along at a confident clip, as do Neumann and the Czech Phil on Supraphon, which is very nice and idiomatic, though to me Kertesz has the better orchestra. Better flute solo in the first movement, better English horn solo in the second, better brasses and percussion. Better playing overall.
You could parse stuff like that endlessly. No doubt there are a lot of good New World recordings out there.
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