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I am looking for the best perfrmance and Best sounding Box set. Any opinions?Harnoncourt, Nikolaus, Karajan, John Eliot Gardiner, Munch, Charles
Thanks!
Follow Ups:
The below only reflects CDs.I find Bohm/VPO the most consistently satisfying set and it's in decent sound. Jochum/Concertgebouw is my second favorite set but the sound is a little thin. The new Vanska recordings have the best sound in Beethoven but the performances so far are "merely" good r/t great.
Favorite individual Symphonies (which are essential as no set I've heard is really good enough in all of these required Masterpieces and many great performances are available on budget releases).
#1 - Szell, Jochum
#2 - Szell, Norrington, Konwitschny
#3 - Walter, Bohm, Klemperer('59), Norrington, Szell
#4 - Bernstein(NYP), Konwitschny, Walter, Leinsdorf
#5 - Reiner, Bohm, Szell(Amsterdam or Vienna), Kleiber
#6 - Monteux, Bohm, Furtwangler
#7 - Bohm, Reiner, Kleiber, Zinman, Wand
#8 - Szell, Norrington, Ormandy
#9 - Furtwangler(Bayreuth or Lucerne), Bohm, Karajan('62 or '77).I have not heard the Weingartner or Mengelberg performances. Next on my list.
Fantastic recording and performance. Incredibly dynamic.
I still like Norrington's first take on them. No, they are not definitive. Yes, they have problems. But they work, in their way. They work. They are not dull. They are full of fresh life. Taruskin says that while he still likes the Norrington's Ninth, it trivializes the music, which is true. But it also gets things out of it no one else has gotten. It's not my favorite, but I go back to it often. Same with his Brahms.
...it's all over soon as the first mouth opens. I suspect a bad take, or a bad day.Along the same lines I can occasionally enjoy the Hanover Band.
clark
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besides the box sets of Karajan (1963) and Toscanini (1949-50), I also have an assortment of LVB CDs by Scherchen, Bernstein, Ddohnanyi, Vanska, Reiner, Norrington and Furtwangler that I listen to occasionally for the variety of interpretations and orchestral sounds they offer.
I know they have their strengths and weaknesses, but I find that with both, the musicians play their hearts out and one can hear it in every measure.
Or maybe Carlo Maria Giulini.....
Recorded in the 70's. I like it - some other posters don't care for it.
I made a few posts about this set a few months ago (see below) and, having now heard all the performances in his cycle, I have no reason to change my opinion. I repeat that those who suspect that these performances might be dull or ordinary (as Haitink has largely become in recent years) need to put those reservations aside, for these are vital, energetic, and thoroughly intense performances (particularly nos. 5, 7, and 9).Russell
... and was very impressed. (Much better than the much-lauded Vanska.) I'm going to pick up a couple others in the series.
...also been adopted by the local, very good, all classical-jazz publich radio station (WFCE, Western Mass)as their "go to" Beethoven.
Harry
... is: Get the Szell, which is as close as anyone has ever come to doing a terrific job on each symphony. Also, if it's your first cycle, it's maybe best to get a fairly "standard" interpretation, and Szell is that--though there's nothing dull or routine about his conducting or Cleveland's playing. Sonics are a bit dated, but perfectly listenable. I probably own two dozen LvB cycles, and Szell is perhaps the one I have returned to most often.The longer answer would include Harnoncourt, Zinman, Wand, 60's Karajan, mono Walter, Kleiber, Jochum, Toscanini and Furtwangler, Klemperer, Gardiner, and probably several others I'm not remembering at the moment. But get the Szell. (Available on inexpensive 'Essential Classics" issues, if you don't want to get the overpriced box set. Also vinyl is easy to find.)
.
I won't pretend to have heard all of the available sets, but I greatly enjoy the 1963 von Karajan set. The cd sonics are perfectly credible, and all of the performances (save perhaps the 6th) are IMHO excellent. It's widely available for about $35.Happy listening,
Jim
My first complete Beethoven set was the Mid 70s DG from Herbie, and I got a lot of pleasure from it. I think the early 60s set was his best Beerhoven. The mannerisms became a grotesque. Its a shame since I think he was a superb musician. But he does not compare (IMHO) with any the top tier.
Period Instruments: Gardiner/ORR on Archiv (my personal favorite)Historically informed on modern instruments: Mackerras/LPO on EMI (this can be easily found for $20 and less - buy it today).
'Regular:' Szell/Cleveland on Sony.
...I'd recommend "Furtwangler Conducts Beethoven" a 4 CD set on Music and Arts. It does not contain 1, 2 and 8. They are all wartime recordings with BPO or VPO.
I have been listening a lot lately to the Vienna Philharmonica/Leonard Bernstein set, and find an awful lot to like (it also can be had quite cheaply)
Klemperer remains a big favorite (not to everyone's tastes) and some performances of Gunter Wand are superb (in the same sense as Klemperer, and I guess not as "stodgy" ).
I listen a lot to Schuricht, although my set is on vinyl, and I am not sure there is a CD set available.
Bruno Walter is wonderful for the even numbered symphonies, but I feel he falls on 3,5, and 9. Since many who would buy a box set really want good peformances of these, its hard to recommend him.
Szell is excellent, and one I rate very highly.
I've not forgotten Furtwangler, and have many individual performances that I love, but its not an everyday set for me. I have to be in the right mood.
I haven't heard most of the recent sets and original instrument influenced recordings so I can't comment. I have gotten one of Vanska's latest, which I like, but that is a cycle still in progress. I confess to a major prejudice against Harnoncourt, and if you did get Harnoncourt, get something else as well.
If I was constrained to choose one or two, I would opt for Szell, then Bernstein. I would hate to relinquish some of my other favorites though.
you dislike Harnoncourt and like Lenny.I just got a Bruno Walter stereo rehearsal LP of Beethoven 5th, Columbia 2 eye, and compared his conception of the 1st movement to what was recorded on the full 6 eye LP. Where the rehearsal is very fiery, the other is distant and rather sluggish. Don't know why. And the 6 eye mono NY Eroica to my ears is very good, if not one of the best.
Thanks for your posting. Its a good question, and I really prefer (which I didn't do) to explore why people like particularl performances. Before I answer the specific question, let me tell you a little how I judge Beethoven performances with an example. I was in my car listening to the last movement of Beethoven's fifth on the radio. As I was listening, I was struck by the transparency of the sturcture of the movement with no loss of the excitement. That performance was by Gunter Wand, and was what led me to his performances of other Beethoven (I had already liked Wand in some of his Bruckner).
Lenny's Vienna Philharmonic performances have a touch more excitement than Wand, but they also preserve the clariy of Beethovens musical structures. There is a recording of Lenny discussing the first movement of Beethoven's fifth, where he discusses discarded sketches, and indicates why Beethoven discarded some of the sketches. The VPO performances capture that sense without losing the excitement. I would say the same also applies to Szell. WIth KJlemperer, the structures are even more transparent, but at some cost in terms of the druve that is also so important in beethoven.
Harnoncourt - to be fair, i have not listened to much of his Beethoven, my opinion is based mainly on his recordings of other works. I got two recent Harnoncourt recordings based on Grammaphone raves. I got his Bruckner Eighth, which struck me as nothing wrong, but rather pedestrian. For Bruckner eight for me, the first movement needs some gentleness also, to my mind Bruckner is also the heir of Schubert. Much worse in my mind was Harnoncourt's Dvorak ninth - I find that he makes tempo choices and emphases that distort the music. its really the only way I can put it. One sees what is in the music, but to my mind, Harnoncourt sometimes shows off the music in a funhouse mirror. ( I alos feel the Celebidache does that also).
Lennie can do these sorts of distortions also - a recording of Sibelius second comes to mind. Very exciting, but a recording of extremes. I have recently gotten the late Mahler set by Lennie, and plan on spending some time with it, but I really haven't been in a Mahler mood lately. Actually, my listeniing of late has been a lot of Beethoven piano sonatas (especially the Kempff, but also the Silverman set). I hope this helps. I have no musical training at all, so everything I write is based on my listening impressions.
If you like Bernstein in this music you should opt for the first set with the NYPO on Sony, in place of the slow-and-mannered VPO readings.For real entertainment try the 1953 Lenny Eroica with the "Stadium Symphony" and the 1959 7th with the NYPO (LP only), a truly wild ride through the score.
similarly, without musical training, except over 40 years of listening. I have Harnoncourt's live Beethoven set from 1990, highly reviewed. His distortions there seem not as significant. I like but don't love his set.VPO/Bernstein--I have 3rd, 7th and Overtures on LP. Very good set, but the Eroica is too slow, invented emphasis compared to some others I own. I love the Schmidt Isserstedt with VPO and Szell/Clev.
There are two that work very well for me, a mono Horenstein and Klemperer. Lennie's third with the VPO seemed to me to have promise, but I've only listened to it once.
I recently listened and reviewed in my mind the Szell/Clev., Szell/Bayreuth/Czech Phil, some of Bernstein/VPO (confess, need to relisten to LP) and must listen to mono Klemp, stereo Klemp, Szell SACD version/Clev., Dohnanyi/Clev. LP, and so on. I must review again Reiner's mono LP and others.But the one I got in my head was Schmidt-Isserstedt cd coupled on Weekend Classics London with the Egmont music (excerpts) by Szell all with VPO. Fast, but not HIP fast. Powerful beautiful sound. Fat London type, with articulation and detail still there, but with a bit of tape hiss remaining for the purists. :)
I have been in a project and covered 11 Beethoven 5ths thus far.
However, I agree you can do better with individual performances rather than complete sets.BTW, I just can't get behind the enthusiasm for C. Kleiber's 5 and 7. Particularly in 7, the DG engineering is nothing short of sabotage, and as for performances, I like Dorati and Reiner better in both symphonies.
However, it should be original Belock LPs, or Everest CDs, because knockoff reissues are terible.Of modern performances, I like Vanska with Minnesota.
Right after I posted my recommendations above, I thought, "Oops, there are a lot of bad, bad CD reissues of those Krips performances floating around!" So I'm glad you mentioned that listeners should avoid the knockoffs! For CD, I was referring specifically to the Everest/Omega 20-bit reissues, supervised by Seymour Solomon. (Who knows, maybe some of these performances will make it to the Classic Records HDAD (DVD-A and CD) reissues!)Another interesting thing, the Kempe / Munich Philharmonic (at the time, the fourth best orchestra in Munich!) recordings were made in a Munich beer hall in qudraphonic sound. I'd love to hear these performances reissued on a hi-rez (SACD or DVD-A) medium. Also, I love the singing of Kempe's soprano in the Ninth Symphony, Ursula Koszut, who manages Beethoven's ungrateful vocal writing extremely well.
I bought the 5CD Toscanini for $26 from Tower, to get Nos. 1, 3 (1953, already have 1939), 7 (not quite the 1936 NYPO, but close) and 9 (1952, nice complement to 1938).There is no complete set that covers all bases, but here's some individual performances I like:
#1 Monteux, VPO
#2 Beecham RPO (stereo) and London Phil (mono)
#3 Toscanini/NBC (1939) and Furtwaengler/BPO (1943)
#4 Walter/NYPO
#5 Furtwaengler/BPO (1937)
#6 Walter/Columbia (1958)
#7 Toscanini/NYPO (1936) and C. Kleiber/VPO
#8 Beecham/RPO and Monteux/VPO
#9 Toscanini/NBC (1938), Furtwaengler/BPO (1942)
They all sound better on VPMS Speakers.VBG
...you could just ignore him and... well... do what SE does best.Not to quibble, but the BBC performances really do outdistance the NBC (at least those released in the usual cycle).
Also I have to put in a word for the greatest Sixth, that by Mengelberg on Telefunken (*not* the one in his complete set).
clark
...since removed, and advisedly so.But it went like this:
Posted by SE
He DID mention sound quality. You could just ignore him...
------------------------------
and jerk yourself off again -- oh, wait, you just did. And how about that 5
day late April Fool's post below. Are you taking your medication like your
supposed to?
.
for what he is (which is OK by me, I know I'm not being nice when I do this), the LEAST you can do is remove clark's incessant need to rekindle things. Thanks.
Ignore my post below to clark, phillyb, he's a local spammer that targets himself sometimes.
n/t
z
...hmmm. They were OK. I didn't find the sound or the performances particularly compelling. My faves right now:
3rd: Szell or Furt, the Furt on Seraphim with the 7th and the 5th. I've heard talk about the earlier performances but the '50's is about as far as I go. I have limits too.
5th: Kleiber
6th: really do like (love)the Walter--great sound too.
7th: I'm really liking Ansermet--he seems perfectly suited to Beethoven's most ebullent and charming symphony.
9th: I like Reiner's and Bernstein's for modern.
...the Kleiber Fifth, surely you mean Erich?... one of the greatest performances ever committed to anything. By comparison the kid's work is rather slack.Weingartner's 8th and 9th are super too -- just try the Scherzo of the latter, to hear how the music should go.
clark
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