 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
208.58.2.83
In Reply to: Why I bought a 155 CD set- and Happy Birthday Herr Bach ! posted by Bambi B on March 21, 2007 at 12:32:42:
As to any box set, I can't imagine immersing myself in some record producer's chosen performances. Over the decades I have collected so many gems that I find most everything else way inferior. Ever hear Elisabeth Gruemmer sing Mein glauebiges Herze from Cantata 68? (Just for instance...) Or Glenn Gould playing the Partitas? Why would one want to go in search of completeness anyway?When WHRB played the complete Bach several years ago -- and what a time it was! -- not one selection to my knowledge came from a collected set, each was carefully chosen for musical merit.
Of course I'd say the same about Beethoven, Mahler, Sibelius.
clark
Follow Ups:
Not lucrative, but fun. I still recommend Three Centuries to harpsichord enthusiasts today. It is still something of a definitive work.
Bung,I had no idea you were in the cembalo whittling biz- that's an increasingly rare occupation. - And yes, the hourly wage of even the best builders is quite low, even with the much higher prices now- it's just so labour intensive. There's a lot of parts!
I met Frank Hubbard once in the shop on Tremont St.(?) in Boston (1976 I think it was)- a brilliant fellow. What kind of person was he to work with and how long were you there? Did you continue with any kind of instrument making?
Go, Go - "go-bars" !
I have several friends- well three- which is a lot in the harpsichord world- who are all Dowd fanatics. Another friend has a "William Hyman" French double, which in reality was done by the Hubbard shop to satisfy orders for Hyman after he died. Hyman you may know was the designer of the Zuckeramnn French double. I spent a day in his Hoboken shop on the same trip to the US as when I met Frank Hubbard. He was the most demanding builder I ever met and was actually buyiung up his early instruments and destroying them! He made onlt 6 French doublees per year and whe I was there he was building one for Albert Fuller. Rapheal Puyana was another Hyman devotee. It was a pity and a loss to music when Hyman died so young- and needlessly really. He neglected to take medication for a kidney ailment and went unconscious while driving in Connecticut.
I used to pester harpsichord builders whenever I could- all over the place- Adlam and Burnett in England, David Rubio and so on. I saw Derek Adlam in Italy in 1993 and he is no longer building- too bad too. And he's a very fine clavichordist as well.
Yes,and I agree, "Three Centuries of Harpsichord Making" by Hubbard is still, I feel, the best overall book on harpsichord building. Benefits of a Harvard education,...
Cheers,
Bambi B
I'm too young to have known him. I worked for Hubbard in the early 90's as part of an apprentice/journeyman phase of building several different types of instruments.I ultimately left the field all together, but I have supreme respect for the talented folks I met along the way.
x
Bambi -I, too, treasure my old, worn copy of Hubbard's book (met him in 1972--I was trying to broker a deal to import snakewood), but Ed Kottick's has now replaced it in every conceivable way (see link). Every harpsichord fan worth his or her salt should have a copy and read it cover-to-cover.
Clark,Today, I have a Zuckermann Flemish single, that I rebuilt in 1986. It had been put together with completely plain case and a painter friend decorated the soundbaord and case, and I restrung and voiced it. When I was 15 I built a Burton Flemish which I wish I still had, as my Zuckermann has a GG/BB short octave uip to d''' and the Burton was FF-f'''- almost as wide a range as harpsichords ever got. The Burton is in Belgium now and I really had fun with it in my school art class I made linoeum blocks and printed my own imitation Flemish "seahorse "paper. Both these have an 8' and a 4' but I would really prefer 2 X 8' stops. Someday, I hope there is a French double in my future, but overall I actually prefer the Flemish timbre- articulate as can be whereas the French sound can force too much of a lush, rich timbre onto the music.
I also built a Zuckermann small fretted clavichord in the mid -80's which is tonally excellent, but the range is only 45 notes and I plan someday to get a big Hass or Hubwert copy with at least GG to d'''.
What model Zuckermann did you have? Do you still have a harpsichord?
My next instrument purchase will be a Rodgers or Allen church organ. I took organ lessons at university- do you know the organist George Guest?- but I haven't played in years as I don't have anywhere to practice.
I was also reluctant to buy the Bach complete works- I have 100's of Bach LPs, 78's, and CD's with performaces, that like you, I accumulated over many years and several countries- I've lived in 4, and really I have 7 or 8 Golbergs, - perhaps 300 LPs of the organ works and actually nearly all the Cantatas- remember the old blue cloth box Archivs? Those performances include Emma Kirkby and some really good singers. But, with all the recordings I have, and the many, many recitals I've attended, I knew that there are quite a number of pieces by Bach I'd never heard and $107 must just be chalked up as an educational expense. I haven't kept a tally, but I would estimate I've heard 15-20 peices I think I've never heard or at least don;t remember hearing, plus I 'm rediscivering some pieces that revice mt interest that aren't heard often- like the Sonatas on harpsichord. Aalso, a different persepctive is always welcome- I never tire of new versions of the English Suites.
I agree completely that one gets a far more musically intense experience with the selected perrformances, but as I mentioned it's the knwoledge that I have access to everything- and the recordings are rally quite listenable with a few very nice performances.
I'd be more reluctant to buy a complete Beethoven as I'm far too particular abou the piano works, Symphonies, and the Quartets which are what I listen to mostly. Mahler, too of course I lke some conductors fro all of them- I can take Bernstein fro everything, but of course each Symphony is too indiviualistic to stay with only one performance or conductor.
A couple of complete sets though I would like to have: Grieg "Lyric Pieces", Medelssohn "Lieder ohne Worte", all the Haydn Quartets, and if the singers were really good, someday I'd like to hear every Schubert Lieder- that would be a big box too!
I had a history don who mentioned that he's almost never read Dickens, that he was "saving" him for his retirement!- and I thought then this was a stylish attiude, but I shouldn't like to wait- my dictum is, "Life is short and Art is big"!
Cheers,
Bambi B
...by the degree to which you've pursued this construction gig. I'm nowhere near so involved, stopping after one: a plain old Zimmerman from c. 1971. I'm told by people who know this stuff that it turned out sounding better than any other such kit they'd heard, which I ascribe simply to woodworking skills. I still have it, yes, but haven't approached it (or regulated it, or tuned it) for well over a decade.As to Bach, you are much more the collector than I imagined; under those circumstances the box set represents an expansion of an already intimate knowledge, from which base you are able to assess each of the box performances and not use them as your one-and-only.
> A couple of complete sets though I would like to have: Grieg "Lyric Pieces", Medelssohn "Lieder ohne Worte"... Those would be good choices. I believe the Schubert *has* been done!
clark
Yes, and that's a good reason to buy such a set, especially at this sort of price.But at US $107 including shipping, roughly the cost of 7 full price CDs, I think it's just as valid a decision to buy this set if you're just starting out with Bach. You get to sample a bit of everything and then explore the areas that interest you in depth. You can go on to buy other performances of works that really move you in order to explore them further as well.
If I suggested to someone interested in a representative sample of Bach that they buy 1 disc each of the solo keyboard works, organ works, chamber music, cantatas, the violin concertos, and one of the Passions or the B Minor Mass, then they'd be up for close to the cost of this set for just that small sample if they purchased full price discs.
Usually I'd agree with you about the drawbacks associated with complete sets but in this case, at this price, it's probably just as good a buy for someone just getting into Bach as it is for someone with an already extensive collection of Bach including multiple performances of some works.
David Aiken
...*not* explore further because of dull performances.And especially with Bach, the "mathematical composer", the keyboard works can get pretty damn dull in the hands of many harpsichordists. Ditto the solo fiddle pieces.
clark
Well, for a start, Bambi's comments seem to indicate that these are reasonable performances. That seems a strong point in favour here.It's possible that some people, hearing a 'dull performance' are going to recognise the quality of the music and look for a better performance. It's also possible that some people, hearing a good performance, are going to think "that's it" and not consider the possibility that there are equally good or better performances out there worth exploring. For a relative newcomer to Bach, both are possible.
I guess my feeling is that if there are some good performances in the set and the listener comes across those, then they're going to respond to them. If they find some other performances dull but the music interesting, they are going to be more likely to explore further performances of those particular works based on their other good experiences from the set.
One thing is certain. We can't save people from themselves. We all have made mistakes based on past experiences which were bad and unrepresentative of the music. In time we usually recover because we eventually do hear the music again, and we can and do change our views at times.
My fear, with a set this size, is simply that the newcomer is going to feel swamped and do something stupid like trying to listen to all of it in a too short period instead of simply picking a disc from a different aspect of Bach's work and sampling through the set that way at a reasonable pace, say a disc every 2 or 3 days or so, until they get a feel and appreciation for the music and can settle in for "a binge" every now and then. As someone who has, on occasion, purchased large sets (the Philips 32 LP set of Arrau's Beethoven sonata cycle does come to mind), I think the biggest problem people face with large sets is simply their size and learining that you don't have to justify the expenditure by trying to play through the whole set in a short time, or at some fixed pace.
David Aiken
Call it "hyper". I hear that a lot on harpsichord recordings especially and I find it extremely irritating. I can imagine an unwitting listener being put off forever.By the way, I find most, not all, Arrau performances to be on the, ah, former side.
clark
Arrau may be on the dull side but that particular set was, when I purchased it, probably the equivalent of this Bach set as far as price goes. I think it provided good value.Harpsichord is a difficult instrument to record, and so is the classical guitar which I used to play (or try to play). I find many classical guitar recordings are recorded far too close, and I find that strange since as a player my ear for the sound of the instrument was formed by what I heard when I played and I was damn close to the instrument at those times. I think the difference is where my ears were, above and behind the instrument at about 90 degrees to the plane of the soundboard and directly above the side of the instrument. That changes the tone considerably. Placing the mic too close to the front of the instrument seems to accentuate the brightness and string sounds, probably in a way similar to what happens with the harpsichord.
I have a friend who loves classical guitar recordings and can't understand it when I say they don't sound realistic or natural. I think he has little experience of the live sound and what little he may have will have been in concert venues, possibly with a microphone being used, not in a normal sized room at close proximity.
I have similar problems with chamber music. A lot of the recordings are overly close and many concert performances are in rooms too large to be "chambers" and with acoustic characteristics better suited to symphonic music. Neither gives you the effect of a live performance in an appropriately sized room at the distance the audience would be at in such a room.
David Aiken
It seems they're usually too close, or too far away.You know what works for me? The sound the engineers achieve on Prairie Home Companion.
clark
hand picked. Unlikely. That's the reason for this type of box set. Duh. I suppose you could (in fact, you just did) use this thread as another reason to be arrogant.
Well, Clark can defend himself if he feels like it, but I have all of Beethoven's works (99.9% of them just to be safe from attack) and did not obtain them by purchasing some complete set. In part because I couldn't afford a complete set when I started. And in part for reasons that Clark mentions. Plus I have several versions of some of the works (late quartets, etc). It is not so unusual a position (let alone an arrogant one) to want to pick and choose performaces or to simply amass a complete set of Bach or Beethoven or whoever over time.
It's a LOT easier to collect "all of Beethoven" (in fact, to hand pick them) than it is to do the same with Bach. In fact, I'll bet clark doesn't have HALF of Bach's output in "hand picked" versions. His post completely missed the point of the very reason one would purchase an "entire Bach". BTW, it's clarks TONE I find arrogant, not his point. His negativity (effectively, "Why bother?" or, worse, "Why would one EVER? (nose up in the air here) that gets me -- a pretentiousness type of reply to a genuinely enthusiastic initial post that is self-serving and...arrogant. In fact, he's SO arrogant, that he considers himself not to be -- the acid test.You may not see it, but he's an asshole (however smart an asshole). I truly dislike him.
a
Another arrogant act. Basking in one's own self -- hubris may be the cruelest fate.
.
NT.
.
.
a
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
