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cognoscendi quotes? CFAC experience.

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Arbelos

(i)

In Reply to: inductor skin effect = nonsense (do a search) (nt) posted by paco on October 04, 2000 at 14:01:46:

Can you give me the places where you foundnd this information?
I really was impressed by what the CFAC's did in my crossover, specially in the upper ranges:
The upper midrange was strongly affected by the bass coils in my MG 3.3 crossover: Applause lost much of a certain artificialty, which we take for granted on stereo systems.
This artificial 'attack' is in my experience enhanced by thicker wires, and sonically a part of many lower-ohm air-cored coils, but even more so part of the sound of coils with magnetic cores, if they do not further shift the sound. Only the flat-wire coils can surmount the paradox of low loss and thin wire gauge - IMO

Follow Ups:

MG 3.3 XO: 250 Hz...! think about it. Arbelos 04:13:23 10/08/00 (6)
There are others (you too?) who have experienced an increase in mid and high transparency by replacing the electrolytic shunt cap on the bass crossover (either MG 3...s or MG 1.6) with PP-caps. An interesting phenomenon. It is on the other hand not that paradox, because some properties of a component probably grow more audible where impedance increases, some where it is low. The increase in impedance of the coils is based on its EM field-effect, and the behaviour of this impedance will reflect the fieelds' properties (also sonically).
Why are you so unwilling to admit similar effects with coils, just because coils are used which don't fit your your hypothesis-framework?
I AM genuinely interested in better sounding coils, and why the CFAC coils shall be no good. I am not occupied with attacking your position - i respect what you do and what you hear. I'd wish you do too!
It can be a very interesting exchange of informations and experiences. Provided that they are treated as such: Experiences or informations.
- no hypothesis, just plain facts paco 06:14:17 10/08/00 (5)
  there are people... there are people...
  there are people claiming having been abducted by aliens,
  or having seen the virgin face!!
  sorry, no time for them
  you want to know exactly the effect of your coils? do this:
  disconnect your tweeters and your woofers, then feed your
  woofers FULL RANGE (no inductors), as single drivers,
  and enjoy the sound for some time; then add your coils and compare
  (still no tweeter!!)
  i did this with my 1.6 a long time ago and heared
  no upper range AT ALL; that's why i KNOW my coils,
  at 600hz xover point, DON'T have any effect on my
  upper midrage
  best, paco
  - link -> psychoacoustics & audibility thresholds. Arbelos 07:55:28 10/10/00 (4)
    -> message under thread: Ansar caps are great
    - psychoacoustics?? maybe, but for everybody paco 08:05:38 10/10/00 (3)
      > > > There are psychoacoustic reasons why he preferred MKTs, i had to accept that.
      curiously enough, you seem to believe that psychoacoustic
      reasons explain JUST the other's choices, not yours!!!
      god bless your magnificent ears once again!!
      best, paco
      - some points to end the debate (hopefully) ... Arbelos 16:26:25 10/11/00 (0)
        
        In Reply to: psychoacoustics?? maybe, but for everybody posted by paco on October 10, 2000 at 08:05:38:
        
        1. Neither my ears nor somebody elses ears are a priori more blessed than others.
        2. Sonic experiences of others should be respected as such. Reasons maybe debated, but not in a personally pejorative or attacking way.
        3. I don't understand psychoacoustics as a pejorative term. It is used to understand reactions on a more complex level, like system matching etc., and personal preferences. My appreciation of Maggies has psychoacoustic reasons, as somebody elses preference for JBL's does. It is a way to try to understand and keep respect for others preferences.
        4. Concerning coils: I think that wire length, quality and tension all are audible in a coil, on a maybe sonically separated level than basic ferromagnetic distortion. The latter is IMO a major issue, the others are less (but still) audible.
        It makes sense that if there are sonic problems with air-coils resistance or cable length, these pertain to coils with high values (above eg. 3mH). It is possible IMO that there the balance of trade-offs may have sonic points in favour of ferro-magnetic coils, i haven't experienced it though.
        5. The experiment of listening to the bass driver alone and with the filters is IMO a worthy one, for eg. judging the bass slam, attack, etc.
        6. The bass quality of the speaker is however also influenced by the mid and tweeters output at low frequencies. All these must integrate optimally. The final test is anyway the complete speaker.
        7. Possible causes must be carefully thought about and maybe discussed
        8. If some effects are not audible with this test, and are audible with other tests, i use the tests which show more differences, even when these differences seem minor, or if they have no 'sensible' reason on the first view.
        9. I have repeatedly, confirmed by independent co-listeners, heard differences in upper midrange and lower highs quality, when only changes in the bass crossover were made (MG 3.3): a) crossover steepness with same brand parts and coil orientaions. b) Replacement of standard air coils with ferro-magnetic ones, or CFAC coils. I expect the same to be even more the case with a MG 1.6. My explanation is that 'distortions' or sounds as low as -60 dB (maybe lower) can be clearly detected by the human ear. That this makes crossover design not easier and could make one paranoid is obvious.
        10. I hope that the messenger of this bad message is not killed for telling it!
        11. The marked improvement in applause sounds with CFAC coils, compared to very good quality air coils from Intertechnik was audible in the midrange crossover, not the bass crossover. This 'only' improved general truth of timbr higher up, and increased the sense of natural 'sweetness' and flow.
      - some points to end the debate (hopefully) ... Arbelos 15:38:46 10/11/00 (1)
        
        In Reply to: psychoacoustics?? maybe, but for everybody posted by paco on October 10, 2000 at 08:05:38:
        
        1. Neither my ears nor somebody elses ears are a priori more blessed than others.
        2. Sonic experiences of others should be respected as such. Reasons maybe debated, but not in a personally pejorative or attacking way.
        3. I don't understand psychoacoustics as a pejorative term. It is used to understand reactions on a more complex level, like system matching etc., and personal preferences. My appreciation of Maggies has psychoacoustic reasons, as somebody elses preference for JBL's does. It is a way to try to understand and keep respect for others preferences.
        4. Concerning coils: I think that wire length, quality and tension all are audible in a coil, on a maybe sonically separated level than basic ferromagnetic distortion. The latter is IMO a major issue, the others are less (but still) audible.
        It makes sense that if there are sonic problems with air-coils resistance or cable length, these pertain to coils with high values (above eg. 3mH). It is possible IMO that there the balance of trade-offs may have sonic points in favour of ferro-magnetic coils, i haven't experienced it though.
        5. The experiment of listening to the bass driver alone and with the filters is IMO a worthy one, for eg. judging the bass slam, attack, etc.
        6. The bass quality of the speaker is however also influenced by the mid and tweeters output at low frequencies. All these must integrate optimally. The final test is anyway the complete speaker.
        7. Possible causes must be carefully thought about and maybe discussed
        8. If some effects are not audible with this test, and are audible with other tests, i use the tests which show more differences, even when these differences seem minor, or if they have no 'sensible' reason on the first view.
        9. I have repeatedly, confirmed by independent co-listeners, heard differences in upper midrange and lower highs quality, when only changes in the bass crossover were made (MG 3.3): a) crossover steepness with same brand parts and coil orientaions. b) Replacement of standard air coils with ferro-magnetic ones, or CFAC coils. I expect the same to be even more the case with a MG 1.6. My explanation is that 'distortions' or sounds as low as -60 dB (maybe lower) can be clearly detected by the human ear. That this makes crossover design not easier and could make one paranoid is obvious.
        10. I hope that the messenger of this bad message is not killed for telling it!
        11. The marked improvement in applause sounds with CFAC coils, compared to very good quality air coils from Intertechnik was audible in the midrange crossover, not the bass crossover. This 'only' improved general truth of timbr higher up, and increased the sense of natural 'sweetness' and flow.
        
        ended paco 00:43:08 10/12/00 (0)
        
        In Reply to: some points to end the debate (hopefully) ... posted by Arbelos on October 11, 2000 at 15:38:46:
        
        to be more cautious is often wiser, yet always safer
        empirical generalizations should not be applied to
        particular cases in lack of concrete evidence --whereof more anon
        from insignificant observations one should not infer anything
        grandma
no place, gurus reluctant to critize hype (nt) paco 00:11:11 10/08/00 (0)
.
upper midrange? 1.6 xover point is 600hz!! (nt) paco 00:08:06 10/08/00 (0)
.

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