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RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023

24.60.132.29

josh358

In Reply to: RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 posted by MarcL on November 08, 2023 at 05:23:56

Damn, still want to hear the BAACH-SP. Hope they have it at AXPONA.

Follow Ups:

RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - hahax@verizon.net 20:43:54 11/14/23 (0)
I heard it about 10 years ago when I was supposed to be the audio expert for a reporter(who it turned out was deaf in one ear) of a New Jersey paper. It was superb then. It's better now and more user friendly.
RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - Analog Scott 11:54:09 11/10/23 (5)
I'm sure it will be there. It is IMO the single biggest improvement in home audio since the invention of stereo. And it just got significantly better with the new room correction filter.
- new filter - jimbill 21:55:08 11/13/23 (1)
  Was that part of the new download?
  
  I just got back in the country and had my computer savvy daughter install it for me.
  - RE: new filter - Analog Scott 02:52:03 11/14/23 (0)
    Don't know. I'm in China working
- RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - josh358 15:33:47 11/13/23 (0)
  I can absolutely believe that.
- RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - TitaniumTroy 13:08:14 11/10/23 (1)
  Room correction filter, mmmm sounds very interesting.
  - RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - Analog Scott 17:48:45 11/10/23 (0)
    Room correction with head tracking using custom filters from in ear measurements.
    
    Edits: 11/10/23
RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - TitaniumTroy 18:39:26 11/09/23 (9)
Josh the BAACH-SP is awesome, I heard it last year at AXPONA. It while it did not go past 180 degrees to the front and sides for me. It was like 3D stereo, never expierenced any like it before. As to the cost, if you have to ask you can't afford it, I know I can't.
- RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - josh358 15:34:46 11/13/23 (0)
  I thought the Mac-based version was somewhat economical?
- RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - MarcL 06:47:09 11/11/23 (6)
  They seem to be doing something with room correction too now. Looking for beta testers. I didn't get a clear understanding because the room was too crowded and I couldn't get back later. But it seems they're using Dirac now but will incorporate some proprietary DSP soon.
  
  Having heard the system three times now, I still believe that the way I have my 3.7s in the Rooze configuration with diffusion in the room I accomplish much the same effect. In fact with some material I actually get 360 degrees. I just wish I could get some experienced audiophile in here to hear it in a somewhat blind test.
  
  Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
  Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
  - RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - TitaniumTroy 17:36:21 11/12/23 (5)
    Wow, Dirac and propriety DSP. Dang that's music to my ears, been waiting for Magnepan to do something like that for years. Bravo to whoever got that pushed through. Can't wait to hear the results, 2025 maybe?
    - RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - MarcL 04:58:39 11/13/23 (4)
      To be clear ... I was speaking of the Bacch processor doing this DSP.
      
      As for Magnepan, there needs to be DSP in the V woofer thing is they ever build it. I use Dirac with my system with 9 Maggies in the room and it works really well.
      
      But it seems the marketing approach is, if people will pay $4000 for capacitors inductors and wire ... why bother with DSP? In fact the market for expensive passive components would no doubt reject DSP.
      
      Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
      Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
      - RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - josh358 15:36:22 11/13/23 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 posted by MarcL on November 13, 2023 at 04:58:39
        
        I've suggested a "Y" mod that would include DSP. No success so far, but I'll keep trying.
        
        RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - TitaniumTroy 19:04:20 11/13/23 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 posted by josh358 on November 13, 2023 at 15:36:22
        
        Josh, you cam put in my vote for the Z model, which would also be actively powered. But in the time, just keep pushing Josh, for that DSP
        
        Edits: 11/13/23
        
        RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - josh358 12:06:28 11/14/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 posted by TitaniumTroy on November 13, 2023 at 19:04:20
        
        Actively powered would be great! Someday, I hope they'll do it. But I think there would be a lot of pushback from audiophiles who want to provide their own amp.
      - RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 - 66mgb 06:51:26 11/13/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Capital Audio Fest Nov 10-12, 2023 posted by MarcL on November 13, 2023 at 04:58:39
        
        I haven't priced high grade inductors and caps lately, so if I think their prices for the X upgrade seem way too high, forgive my lack of knowledge on designer parts.
- I have the Audiophile edition - jimbill 22:09:00 11/09/23 (0)
  The SP is way beyond my affordability. $5,000 is large, but it is the best addition, other than speakers, that I can think of.
  
  The best width I've gotten is about 160 degrees. But that is without any room treatment.
  
  If you get a chance to hear it ask them to put on "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" by the Temptations.
Still enjoying it. - jimbill 14:34:22 11/09/23 (13)
I do wonder what it sounds like through Magnepans. The more directional the speaker the better the program works.

I never listen without it now. The head-tracking makes the sweet spot much larger. The narrow sweet spot was one of my biggest problem with ML's. I no longer worry about moving my head.

Also, I'm much more aware of how much the music was between the speakers before.
- RE: Still enjoying it. - josh358 15:39:36 11/13/23 (12)
  The impression I have is that it works well with Maggies -- just an impression, though, based on something someone said.
  
  I've played with recursive crosstalk cancellation -- the ambiophonics project, where the BAACH filter got its start -- and it's amazing how much of the 180 degree stereo image is lost because of it. But without head tracking, it's just too dependent on head position.
  - RE: Still enjoying it. - Analog Scott 19:59:01 11/13/23 (11)
    It's not terribly speaker dependent. But it is room reflection sensitive. The directionality of any flat panel planar will offer the advantage of reduced side wall, ceiling and floor reflections.
    - Room treatment? - jimbill 21:49:40 11/13/23 (10)
      Do you think you can achieve the same results with room treatment?
      
      My understanding is that it reduces cross-talk between the speakers and the only way to do this without the program would be to put a partition (mattress) between the speakers.
      
      And do dynamic speakers really benefit?
      - RE: Room treatment? - Analog Scott 10:02:49 11/14/23 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by jimbill on November 13, 2023 at 21:49:40
        
        I do think reducing room sound helps reduce the conflict between the spatial cues of the listening room and the recording. But there is nothing conventional room treatment can do to reduce the direct inter aural crosstalk between the opposite speakers and our ears.
        
        The mattress trick does work! But only to a certain degree. There is still substantial leakage between the speakers.
        
        And yes, dynamic speakers definitely work with a he BACCH SP
        
        RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 12:52:11 11/15/23 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by Analog Scott on November 14, 2023 at 10:02:49
        
        I've heard the Bacch SP a couple times. I do believe I achieve an effect very close to that in my room. Perhaps the same idea but a little different, but still spacious in a way I could not achieve prior to my current setup. Of course I don't get head tracking, but really that is a pretty sophisticated setup with the camera watching your face and actively changing the DSP.
        
        So my setup is the "Rooze" with the 3.7 angled 45 degrees and pointing at very reflective side walls with the tweeter end of the speaker about 9-10 inches from the wall. Otherwise, I have a lot of Vicoustic diffusers on the front wall and the sides up to the edge of the speakers ...absorption on the ceiling at the first reflection ... then more diffusers overhead and a bit behind MLP.
        
        With strictly two channel recordings in some cases I get sound wrapping above and behind my head.
        
        I have done some measurements and I do believe the arrangement blocks some of the interaural crosstalk, in addition to making sure the out of phase rear wave is scattered and delayed a long time before reaching the MLP.
        
        Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
        Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
        
        RE: Room treatment? - Analog Scott 14:35:04 11/15/23 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 15, 2023 at 12:52:11
        
        I'd have to hear it and do an in ear measurement to get some idea what's doing. First and foremost if you are digging it. That's great! Increasing the separation between the speakers does reduce the crosstalk because of our head transfer function. Unless there is a cancellation signal as there is with the BACCH the lack of head tracking isn't an issue
        
        RE: Room treatment? - josh358 09:15:17 11/16/23 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by Analog Scott on November 15, 2023 at 14:35:04
        
        I've experimented with Rooze and I think you're explanation is correct. In the absense of direct sound, you're listening to the first reflections off the sidewalls, meaning that the acoustic sources are a good deal farther apart. That, as you say, increases the width of the stereo triangle that's set by interaural crosstalk.
        
        You're also delaying the first reflection (actually, listening to it), increasing the size of the acoustical space.
        
        Ordinarily, when you increase the separation of the speakers too much, you get a "hole in the middle" effect. I believe that the reflection off the front wall mitigates that.
        
        RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 14:20:19 11/17/23 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by josh358 on November 16, 2023 at 09:15:17
        
        In my case the front wall is all diffusion and the big TV is 4ft out from the wall and the rear wave of the speakers is blocked from coming directly into the MLP area without being significantly delayed and diffused.
        
        Is it possible that - as opposed to just placing speakers very far apart - the effect of blocking some or all of the interaural crosstalk with this arrangement is what eliminates that hole in the middle?
        
        I can say most definitely there is no hole in the middle. Note the added baffle extensions on the 3.7s and the blocking absorbers.
        
        Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
        Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
        
        RE: Room treatment? - josh358 10:58:53 11/18/23 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 17, 2023 at 14:20:19
        
        That's an interesting question. You don't get a hole in the middle effect with headphones, but with headphones, there's no HRTF and there are no micromovements of the head, so you can't isolate IATD as a variable.
        
        But I think your speculation is a good one. Somehow, intensity or phase stereo is able to localize an object where the interaural time delay of the original object would be lower than that of the loudspeaker, but not when it would be greater. The fact that the arrival at the second ear doesn't come when it should is presumably one of the reasons that a phantom image lacks solidity. It seems that when the IATD is much higher than the object's location would demand, we get the hole in the middle.
        
        RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 05:15:44 11/19/23 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by josh358 on November 18, 2023 at 10:58:53
        
        On this track of comparing to headphones ... the angle of the direct sound coming from the side walls in the Rooze makes them kind of "nearphone". This is particularly true in my setup where the tweeters are way back close to the wall and you have the mid-woofer panel and then my 2ft oak baffle extensions. All that extension blocks a lot of the mid and high frequencies from having a path to the opposite ear. So the crosstalk to the opposite ear is greatly reduced compared to normal speaker listening.
        
        I started doing some measurements with a cork head and the Sonic Presence SP15 binaural mic a while back. I was going after another concept at the time. Now I want to see if I can isolate exactly what reaches the opposite ear, and the time difference. I think I can do this ... a Winter project!
        
        Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
        Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205
        
        RE: Room treatment? - josh358 17:15:47 11/20/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 19, 2023 at 05:15:44
        
        Now that will definitely be interesting. :-)
        
        RE: Room treatment? - timm 06:29:31 11/19/23 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by MarcL on November 19, 2023 at 05:15:44
        
        Lol. You are an animal MarcL.
        
        RE: Room treatment? - MarcL 06:34:43 11/19/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Room treatment? posted by timm on November 19, 2023 at 06:29:31
        
        Oh well ... animal ... retired engineer ... same kinda thing, right? :-)
        
        Agilist, Musician, Photographer, Audiophile
        Magneplanar: 3.7, CCR, MC1,LRS, MMGW, DWM; Outlaw: UltraX12, LFM-1C; Emotiva: XMC-2; Nord: Nord One NC500DM, Nord Three 1ET7040SA; Outlaw: Model 7500; OPPO 205

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