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I recently posted about getting some non-working KLH Nine's. I have one of them working and I have been listening to it and it is sounding better the longer it has been on.
I think I read somewhere that it is because it takes a while for the high voltage to reach its steady state voltage. But I have been checking the voltage and it comes right up, and doesn't continue to rise. And the panels that are fed in series, there isn't a voltage drop.
Anyone know the answer to this?
Thank-you
Follow Ups:
Dang, these are nice sounding speakers. I'm listening to both of them, one bass panel (out of 10) is out of one speaker, being sent to Janszen Audio to be rebuilt. I wrote to David Janszen this morning:
"My question has to do with the tweeters. The sound to me, is slightly veiled. High voltage to the tweeters is about 15% lower than spec, the 22M resister on the high voltage board reads just under 20M. Voltage to the bass panels is correct. High voltage has been on for 48 hours. My questions is should I send you the tweeters to be refurbished? Is there some problem that you can resolve that causes the mids and highs to be a bit muted?"
David got right back to me:
"While running pink noise, connect and disconnect the tweeter's bias terminal. If the sound droops fast without the connection, there's a leakage path in the tweeter requiring a rebuild. The 15% reduction itself will of course cause a couple of dB loss, could be caused by a leakage path loading the supply or endemic to the supply. Both effects however should be spectrum wide, not dulling the response.
Some were built with a damping layer incorrectly applied to the front of the tweeter and this will dull the sound. Just tear it off if so. "
And he was correct, one of the speakers tweeter did have the damping layer. I'm now listening to them, like they are near field monitors and I like them a lot. I'm going to let them play for a few more days then A/B them against ESL-63's and Yamaha NS1000M's.
Nice to know you are getting them sorted out. I was confident that David would be a big help so it was good that you reached out to him.
If you like them well enough, take Lew's advice and start looking for a second pair. Now that you understand the repairs that should make it easier.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
It is tempting, that's for sure. And no comparison working on these, compared to ESL-63's, these are much easier. I still haven't done an A/B comparison, but I will once I have the one bass panel that back and installed.
Thanks again for comments and suggestions, I'm having a good time listening to these.
You'll be amazed. Any beaming of the tweeter element is ameliorated, if you place the two speakers of one channel with tweeters toward the center and the two panels slightly at angles. I ran two pair for several years back in the 70s and 80s, driven by Futterman OTLs.
Thank-you for the suggestion. I only have one pair (so far) and I am pleased, there are some things that I have never heard sound as good as with these speakers.
KLH actually marketed a small angled brace for mating two speakers used in one channel. If you look closely at the base of your speakers, on the side where the tweeter is located, you will see some small bolt holes for that brace. I might even still have a pair of those braces, if you ever decide to double up.
Hey fred,
To repeat what I suggested earlier, why not ask David?
I understand there are some bright and helpful people here but no one knows this speaker as well now that his father is gone. Characteristics for the Nines may not be the same as all other electrostatics.
Anyway, great you have one working. Will look forward to your report once both are repaired and "up to speed". ;^)
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
I agree and I will post what he says here. I have contacted David a number of times now, inquired if he sells parts for Nine's, asked a disassembly question, and then sent him a picture of a disassembled bass panel where the membrane looked fine, but it didn't have high voltage continuity. Each time I felt bad about him spending time helping me for free. I'm going to send him at least one bass panel for rebuilding, I'm just waiting for some high voltage wire to come in the mail today to get the other speaker hopefully working and sending any panels with torn membranes from that speaker at the same time. Once I'm actually a paying customer I will ask him.
for respecting his time.
I bought new speakers from him a few years ago but I always wondered about the Nines. I never had a chance to audition them, although I did hear a hybrid Janszen model back in the early '80s David's father also designed.
"The only cats worth anything are the cats who take chances. Sometimes I play things I never heard myself." Thelonious Monk
M3 very nice speakers. I heard their floor standers and was impressed at the CAF several years ago. Played Jack Johnson tune that just jumped into the room with life.
Gsquared
In my case I have to wait some for the tubed servo-amps to warm up, but I also have to wait for the panels to charge up. Usually there's a noticeable difference in sound after about 20 minutes, and then at roughly 40 - 45 minutes in they seem to approach a plateau.
In most cases electrostatic speakers do not 'warm-up' they charge instantly once polarized. There are a few exceptions and the charge time is directly related to the material used for the conductive coating. Speakers like the original Quad, Stax will take time to fully charge.
I am not familiar with the KLH-9 but if it uses some sort of carbon lacquer coating I am guessing they charge instantly.
What you are most likely hearing is the other components in the system warming up and the sound will change over time. This includes solid state as well as tube based equipment.
Tubes change big time, SS very little if that. Something else is going on.
I've heard pretty dramatic differences with solid state warming up in some cases more dramatic than tube gear.
My ARC SP-14 and D400mkII were unlistenable when cold. I mean simply terrible, bright, cold, brittle, flat. I'd rather mow the lawn. Of course some might claim that's the ARC house sound. LOL
Give them a couple hours to get toasty warm and it was completely different, wow! I have had similar experiences with other solid state perhaps not as dramatic as this example.
For critical evaluation a couple hours warm up is probably best no matter the amplifying device. That doesn't mean one can't have fun till things are warm some gear is fine from a cold start.
I had an ARC many years ago and sold it quick, it wasn't any good anyway. That's most likely the only example manufacturer you can find. I've had all different kinds and never heard vast differences for SS.
As I said before there is very little diff on almost any well designed SS. 5-10 minutes is all I do.
Cheers
I find warm up is even more critical with solid state versus tube. Besides ARC I have had DNM, Butler, Levinson, Pass Labs in the system the past few years. All of them change enough after warm up to warrant a good hour before critical listening.
With solid state preamps I leave them energized 24/7 that way they are always ready to go. Power amps draw a bit too much juice even at idle to warrant leaving them on all the time.
Just as an aside, Nelson Pass suggest AT LEAST an hour after turn on for critical listening....thats solid state gear, right? :)
I would say yes to critical, and then there's the break-in thing for new equipment or even single changes thereof which is another subject.
At least some kind of warmup especially for tube amplifiers. This is what I've experienced in 40+ years. There's plenty of reports here on AA from us on this phenomena.
well have to disagree on the tubes. Mine need a good 20 minutes minimum and that's been a condition for any of the tube amps I've owned or repaired, which have been many for myself and customers. I have it down now to 2 keeper SS amps and all they need is 5 minutes, maybe 6 or 10 because I haven't actually timed with a stop watch. One is a true Class A that runs hot and warms quick.
I've been keeping data on all my equipment for the last 6 years to see if there is any benefit to now turning the amps off because, like you, I used to keep them on all the time except for the tube amps. My interest was to ascertain any distinct advantage either way especially for longevity, sound, and replacement of the pwr supply caps. None whatsoever that is definitive. The boutique caps in power supplies are the most vulnerable however, like the Rubycon 'The Muse' in my DIY phono pre. All I do is fire it up within a day and it's ok, any longer than that requires a bit of time improvement which is clearly audible. The price to replace them today, if they can even be found NOS, is ridiculously high on the order of 500 each.
the panel diaphragms have a substantial area that needs to acquire a full electrostatic charge distributed over the entire area. It takes 24 hours at a minimum to charge my Quads.
When you're done with the speakers post a pic.
Hi Story, Kentaja, request for picture I got a laugh at. I'm not done with them, but I shake my head when I look around. This is how I'm listening to my KLH Nine mono.
I'm waiting on high voltage wire for the other speaker, supposed to arrive today. Regarding other component warm-up, equipment with the exception of DAC and turntable is tube, but I listen on average 8 hours a day, and know what to expect. Whatever is happening with the Nine is something else.
Given the age of the panels there could be some issues. Perhaps not enough to impact sonics or overall performance but enough to impact the power supply and time to full charge.
Panels that are not fully charged will sound different after reaching full charge. There might be a small leakage path somewhere and this will slow things down.
Or perhaps aged components in the audio circuit?
It can be hard to determine with electrostats of this age when everything is still original exactly what is going on. Time and high voltage has taken its toll. Usually the panels and high voltage supply are the areas of concern.
I always wonder if it is me, I will try a new piece of equipment and sometimes I like the sound better and better the longer I listen.
Regarding high voltage, I have an electrometer hooked to the speaker and have also checked the voltage at each panel. From what I have been hearing I was expecting to see the voltage creep up, but it is stable. The electronics in these is very simple, voltage multiplier for HV and transformer in the signal path.
I'm still laughing looking around, no wonder they call this an asylum. I had a friend, first time his GF was at his house, "Why do I feel like I'm in a pawn shop?"
wow, that's some really nice stuff you have, and a good reason to hang here at the Asylum. I haven't seen a pic of the 9's in a long time and yours look fabulous. I wish you well at dialing them in.
I seem to remember someone here or somewhere who had the 9's inside door frames of a room for isolating the rear sound waves for better bass, but I am certainly not recommending that.
The original Quad does take some time to fully charge once energized. This is a function of the conductive coating. How long it takes will depend on a couple variables.
Humidity and age of the panels will impact the length of charge time. For newish panels in relatively high humidity conditions charge time can be as short as 10-15 minutes. Older panels in dryer humidity can take hours perhaps over night.
The coating used in the ESL-63 is completely different from the original. The ESL-63 will charge instantly once energized no matter the age of the panels or the humidity conditions. Most electrostatics work this way.
ok, I didn't know about the other quads or his 9's. E's rule though no matter what kind.
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