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In Reply to: RE: Thoughts on Sanders Magtech posted by Utley1 on September 12, 2020 at 13:28:39
Magnepan's version of the chicken and egg thing. Magnepan owners looking for a descent amp for their planars.
As for Sander's hybrid ESL's, they have a very narrow head-in-vice sweet spot. His show demo room is the only room that I have ever seen with 1 column of audition seats (1 column right down the middle, no chairs left or right of dead center).
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At the T.H.E. shows where I heard them a few times, the Sanders were to me, clearly the best speaker in the show, and the best I've ever heard. Probably as good as big Apogees at least. I calibrate on diversified large-scale classical, and they were absolutely amazingly perfect.
But a far too narrow listening position.
I so wish that Mr Sanders would make a segmented ESL with much wider dispersion. If it sounded like the Sanders 10E in the sweet spot, I would own it no question.
hey Doc; off topic but have you heard the LRS either at an exhibition or over at Stereo Unlimited by Sports Arena blvd?Wondering your thoughts.
Edits: 09/18/20
Sanders states in his video that they sound like any other speaker outside the sweet spot.
Do you agree?
No, the high frequencies, spectral balance, and the magic is lost. It sounds like a low pass filter because that's what it is.My Magnepan 3.6's have roughly the same perceived spectral balance at angles to the emission vector. And combined with the large line source, meaning less deviation on account of distance, they're pretty nice in filling up a space with natural sound even if I'm not listening intently, e.g. I'm at the dinner table.
It's nothing but a matter of physics: the Sanders beams because the width of the driver is larger than the wavelength at higher frequencies. Which is why other planar speakers have narrower midranges and tweeter sections. And conventional speakers have high frequency domes that are an inch wide vs 8 inches.
A segmented ESL, i.e. electronically segmented vertically like the Jazzman ones would be amazing from Sanders. I would love it if done well. I think that's vertical version of the 2-d circular method from the OG Quad ESL-63.
Edits: 09/15/20
I'm sure most of you know that Roger Sanders invented the curved electrostatic panel that Martin Logan uses. He thought, (and still does ) that the flat panel was/is better.I completely agree that they have a very narrow listening window, but inside that window...WOW!!!
Edits: 09/14/20
I have read great things about these speakers from many sources. I would love to hear them. The narrow sweet spot doesn't bother me that much, since I usually listen alone. What does concern me (although based entirely on numbers, not listening) is that the crossover is around 300 Hz, meaning that a lot of the midrange is handled by the woofer, not the ELS unit. What does Fisher-Dieskau sound like, for example?
With the DSP crossover/correction in the new 10E, it's totally transparent.
I didn't notice any discontinuity between woofer & panel. And the woofer is a transmission line, not bass reflex which can boom more.
BTW the crossover frequency is 170 Hz according to a review.
https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/sanders-model-10e-hybrid-electrostatic-loudspeaker/
As I have said, it's the best I've ever heard on diversified classical. Heard it 2-3x at T.H.E. show and I always put it as my #1. Second was Revel Ultima Salon 2.
I heard the Sanders at two separate hi-fi shows in S. California, and at both shows Sanders imo had the best sound at the show. If I had the necessary $ in my pocket, I would have bought them on the spot! As a single listener, I don't mind a speaker with narrow dispersion. It mitigates room sound (reflections off the side walls and ceiling), a good thing.Is it just a coincidence that Bruce Thigpen chose 180Hz as the x/o point between the planar m/t drivers and the sealed 8" woofer in his Eminent Technology LFT-8b loudspeakers? ;-)
Edits: 09/16/20
Not sure about the crossover frequency. I had read a review of the 10B which mentioned 300, but perhaps the 10E is different. I think I also read that with the digital crossover, the user can choose it, but that Sanders still recommends 300.
Not disputing how great they sound. If my Stax setup fails and I still have any ears and/or money left, Sanders is surely what I would try.
THANKS..... Several people have mentioned it....Once owned omni-directional stats and never found a replacement for them...A little bit tired of my ribbon speakers, as worthy as they are.
Utley1,
I am wondering how your amp replacement saga ended up. I trust you found an amp(s) that meet your needs and expectations?
Kurtle
You might want to check out Jazzman's symmetrically electronically segmented wire-stator ESL's. They are approximately the same form-factor size as Sander's hybrid ESL's but use a ladder array of resistors to turn a flat ESL panel into a "electronically curved" panel.
The center of the panel runs full range and each section further away (left and right) from the center has more and more of the high frequency attenuated. This supposedly gives you a wider sweet spot and better off-axis response.
http://jazzman-esl-page.blogspot.com/
I think this is very similar to the way the Stax F81 and F83 work.
I don't know if this design addresses the issues with 'wide dispersion' that Sanders warns against.
I am pretty happy with the imaging and transient response of the Stax speakers. But they are extremely difficult to drive.
Stax uses a bi-lateral resistor ladder array to electronically segment their their stators ?
Something like that. Maybe kentaja can verify.
Thank you. Brilliant conception.....Wonder if they are still being built by JAZZMAN.
He never built them for sale.He shares his designs freely and built those sets for his friends.
He said he will not build any more.
Edits: 09/12/20
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