Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share your ideas and experiences.
Return to Planar Speaker Asylum
73.4.255.141
Dear Inmates,
You will see this ad in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound in a couple of weeks. "One of our boys" has a cool invention that could benefit live music. Gabriel Sakakeeny is a mutli-talented genius with audiophile product designs to his name. My wife and I are proposing that we, as an audiophile community, support him in his effort through a small-donor campaign. It is not so much about the money as putting your name on the list. Many of you are out of work. $10 or $20 is ok. Our audiophile community has something great to offer that would benefit millions of people around the world that attend live, unamplified concerts.
Go to the link below. The biggest hassle is filling out the credit card form. We need your name. How much you donate is not the issue.
Follow Ups:
Stop with the cryptic messages.
I support my local symphony by purchasing season tickets and donating cash.
Not into electronic "enhancement" of acoustical instruments.
I think it should be pointed out that this is neither a sound reinforcement system nor an enhancement in the sense of tinkering the the sound.
What sets it apart is that it allows small orchestras to emulate a larger string section in a manner that is sonically indistinguishable from an actual large string section.
This of course will not be needed in an orchestra that is large enough to accomodate a large roster. But it allows smaller orchestras to play the symphonic repertoire in communities that would not otherwise have access to live music.
what would stop a large orchestra that DOES have space to accommodate s typical string section to use this set up and reduce the number of violinists? Especially if it is indistinguishable and economics come into play. Or maybe that's a good thing?
Otherwise, if I am reading this request correctly, the intention is to bring large orchestra sound into venues not large enough to accomodate a full ensemble. And I am assuming these venues are in communities where no other option exists, and not meant to compete with large concert halls. At least that's how it reads.
To be honest, when I started reading about this "prototype funding", I thought it had to do with "social distancing". Meaning to have fewer musicians on stage safely, yet emulating the grand sound.
I could get behind that.
Anyways, good luck with the funding.
And sorry that Wendell uses you as an Avatar. Puts you in an awkward position. I'm sure there is a good reason for it, and likely has been discussed in length already.
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
"Otherwise, if I am reading this request correctly, the intention is to bring large orchestra sound into venues not large enough to accomodate a full ensemble. And I am assuming these venues are in communities where no other option exists, and not meant to compete with large concert halls. At least that's how it reads."
What I think this is really about:
There aren't enough sufficiently good amateur/community string players to fill out the full section to the acoustically necessary size while upholding standards of player quality. Read the blog linked to in the original message and think about the situation. And my experience is the same listening to US amateur orchestras and participating in a few.
It sounds better and helps the economic feasibility of the smaller orchestras if they use exceptionally high quality and musically satisfying reinforcement with planar speakers like this.
I find myself jumping to different conclusions with each post I read.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Wendell just doesn't have time to do this. If he asks me to post things for him, its a bit awkward, but it removes the temptation to get into a to-and-from discussion with which I think we're all familiar!
I don't think a large orchestra would do this. They have large audiences, funding, large spaces as you say -- and also unions that wouldn't permit it, and an audience and critics that wouldn't permit it either (as when the Met tried to install sound reinforcement and had to back down).
It's for small orchestras that need to play potboilers like the 1812 Overture to attract the audience. Those potboilers finance the Mozart or Bach, music that's more appropriate to their size.
Ah. I just read up on the unions such as AFM. So no one will be replacing musicians anytime soon.
And I see the challenges smaller orchestras can face with your "potboiler" explanation.
Wendell may be too busy to engage the inmates. Hope he appreciates all that you do on his behalf.
I see another thread has been started. Need to catch up. You have your hands full!
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Thanks, Jonesey.
Josh: sometimes things are wrong. Sometimes good intentions are recipes for disaster. The sound is to be made by the player of the instrument, not by anything else, not matter how allegedly "indistinguishable" it is. Being indistinguishable does not make a perfect counterfeit 20 dollar bill a perfectly acceptable legal tender. It is, in fact, a crime.And just to show you how sound my argument is, one last point. Do you know who else in history wanted "to emulate a larger string section"?
Stockhausen.
Just sayin.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Edits: 05/22/20
I think Wendell put it succinctly when (referring to another remark), he said "Remind him that going out of business is always an option for small orchestras."
Sure, in an ideal world, this wouldn't be necessary, but for small orchestras and the people who enjoy listening to them, it can be the key to survival at a time when even major orchestras are struggling.
So I don't think this is like the justly vilified and rapidly aborted decision to use sound reinforcement at the Metropolitan Opera. That's the kind of thing to which I would object, strongly.
Rather than being an attack on purity, it's an attempt to bring people live music under circumstances that wouldn't otherwise allow it.
Which seems a good goal to me!
our music director placed three microphones on a single violin player and fed it through three different patches/amps, and it sounded splendid, as if -well three violins were performing. I've never forgotten it. I'd recommend him but I'm sure he's no longer around by now.
Edits: 05/22/20
Very interesting! Yes, I think that's the principle being employed here. And in high school, it would have the advantage of keeping all the violins in tune. :-)
LESS two violinists....NOT the way I see things-too much cleverness.Do you want to make music on the basis of MC=MR ? Hire as many musicians as possible and re-orchestrate the scores is a sounder principle...ONE MOOG is enough.
best
UT
I think you are vastly misunderstanding what "indistinguishable" has to mean here. We are not talking audio system X vs Y. We are talking about the, well ya know, the absolute, the thing itself -- the orchestra, the room, the audience, the night, the temperature.And I am going to have to say: your argument is not only wrong, but it built on the stilts of a blatant fallacy, and you need to take off the salesman's hat and just try to make an honest case.
You are basically saying, our options are, such measures or other, or orchestras and ensembles shutting down.
Not true, not true at all!!! False dilemma.
Orchestras historically have *always* had to deal with modifications to the scale of their forces. Scores were adjusted, repertoire was adjusted -- that is normal industry conditions, as it were.
So my Beethoven gets scaled down, and certain adjustments made. And we make do. And the music, it truly never stops.
Maybe your real concern is for the halls that no longer will fill, neither with people nor rosters of string sections, eh?
That is an entirely different matter. Save the music halls? Maybe, but let orchestras be orchestras always have had to do, and endeavor to strive and survive.
Maybe that means leaving a Hall now too big?
That is a business issue that should not be tied around the neck of the ensemble or orchestra, and for shame if it has been.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Edits: 05/22/20
This isn't my gig and I'm not in the business of selling it. What it is is a project dear to Wendell's heart, so much so that he's going to pay for ads in TAS and Stereophile out of his own pocket, and if need be, much more. But I confess I've been disappointed by the remarks I've seen here.
I understand the reluctance to dilute the purity of live performances by listening to them on our systems I mean by using electronic reinforcement of any kind. But there is such a thing as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Perhaps we should respect Gabriel, who, as a conductor, is actually on the front lines? I had the pleasure of meeting him a few years ago, and he's a brilliant man who would, I think, be able to manage without this if it were possible.
Not sure about you or Wendell but I've been on this forum since 2000 and I can't ever remember anyone asking to invest for a 'profit venture' (or non-profit for that matter). And if they did-it wasn't during the worse economic time since the Great Depression.
Yeah, believe me, I've had that discussion with Wendell several times. It's particularly difficult with arts organizations across the company experiencing financial difficulties.
I'm impressed, though -- if you look at the Go Fund Me page, in two days, they've already raised $2800 towards the $35,000 goal, most of it in small contributions -- $10, $20, what have you -- and that's before the ads in Stereophile and TAS have even run. In fact, one of the reasons Wendell is asking everyone to contribute even if it's just $10 or $20 is that once the ads do run, people who check out the Go Fund Me page will see that small contributions are welcome. It's amazing how quickly small contributions add up.
I suggest you read the description on the Go Fund Me page. Beyond that, it's a system that uses multiple planar loudspeakers behind the orchestra to extend the number of players.
I don't know the specifics of what Gabreel has done, but I imagine that if you duplicated a single violin with a loudspeaker at a different location and perhaps added in a bit of delay and twiddling with frequency and phase, you'd get the sonic equivalent of another string player. The use of multiple loudspeakers would not only provide localization but you'd have the phasing effects that give massed strings their unique sound, while the dipole radiation pattern would be similar to that of the instruments themselves, meaning that they would have a similar ratio and timing of direct and reflected sound.
so this is virtual reality + reality. No thanks, if people want virtual they can sit home and turn on their......stereo. Sorry to disagree.
Sitting in front of real instruments will always be the reference.
*Freudian slumber, plenty of sound
This is to keep the orchestras alive so they can draw audiences that want to listen to potboilers and afford to play the small orchestra music (Mozart and Haydn, etc.) for which they are suited. And unlike a conventional sound reinforcement system the sound is indistinguishable from a larger ensemble. That's what sets it apart.
it's a system that uses multiple planar loudspeakers behind the orchestra to extend the number of players.
Then contrary to your previous assertion, it is most certainly a "sound reinforcement system", aka speakers driven by amplification.
Now you're just being petty.
By observing that a sound reinforcement system is... a sound reinforcement system?
Huh?
If you want amplified speakers at your symphonic concerts, that's certainly fine by me. :)
As Winston Churchill so aptly put it, that is the kind of bloody pedantry up with which I will not put.
so be it.
What's your problem?
Oh, fuck off, E-Stat. I'm going to bed, and I suggest you do the same. Have cheery thoughts!
Words and concepts have a particular meaning.
Not sure why you have difficulty accepting reality.
No matter...
Sorry, Ralph, but I think my meaning was quite clear -- this is not some microphones and a couple of J arrays. Now you may object nonetheless to what Gabriel has done, fine. But quibbling over my word choices is a waste of time, as they have nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making.
But quibbling over my word choices is a waste of time
Any time you introduce speakers adding to the content - regardless of the *quality*, it is necessarily sound reinforcement.
If some like that artifice, that's fine by me.
I would go elsewhere.
That's great if you have elsewhere to go.
We aren't talking Lincoln Center here.
which could (likely) be better once you introduce electronics and speakers into the mix.
Take your pick. I choose live unamplified music. Leave sound reinforcement to rock concerts. ;)
One thing I learned from talking to Wendell this afternoon -- the large ensemble 1812 Overture potboiler stuff is needed if a small orchestra is to survive, because that's what brings in the audiences. This then allows the orchestra to play music like Mozart and Bach that is within its natural scope.
I agree despite my post Give Gabriel a shot....I am sure he is on the side of music....The one caveat is that larger orchestra's will adopt in this savage environment with less cause. ANOTHER fear is this system will lead to less donor support...I AM HEARING TERRIBLE VIBES IN NYC about musics future...110 piece orchestra may be a thing of the past.
LASTLY, BABe RUTH got the Span flu twice In 1918 and 1919 teams played but half their games But I cannot imagine the MET OPERA or NYPO playing at all. WILL anyone show up at a concert hall in my age category 65+ ?
I sincerely hope that doesn't happen -- but imagine that if it does, it will be a matter of dire necessity.
All arts organizations are severely challenged now, and while I doubt that the Met or the Philharmonic will disappear, some less favored ensembles may suffer the fate of the New York City Opera.
I think the most important thing here is to keep what we can alive.
Despair for me. I love musicians and OPERA...It would be hard to find a reason to live in NYC
DO you know MET and CH functioned in the 1918-19 pandemic and even Broadway Professional baseball lost 6 players in 2 years to the flu. I am bewildered.
I seem to remember you saying something about going into the City years ago. :-)
I didn't know that. I do know that some cities closed down then, and some didn't, and the ones that did ended up with a lower death rate. Part of the problem is that, apparently, the government suppressed news of the epidemic because they were afraid it would interfere with the war effort.
If you want to see something scary, check this out:
I'm not against what is being done, but if you're taking one instrument and using electronics to make it sound like two, that is tinkering with the sound using a sound reinforcement system.
Personally, I prefer small ensembles to large orchestral presentations. Like I said, I'm not against it, as it allow a small orchestra to present a larger piece, but I find a lot of charm in a smaller orchestra.
Regards,
Steve
Well, Wendell just sent me this, and I'm not sure where to put it so I'll put it here, since it addresses several of these comments:
"Purity is an admirable goal and that defines audiophiles. But, none of us can claim to have more concern than Gabriel about the purity of classical music and orchestras. That has been his life. He knows far more than we do about the plight of diminishing and gray-haired audiences. Innovate, adapt or die. And that also describes high-end audio which is also in decline (and we are also getting old)."
Thanks Josh and Wendell, seems like a worthy cause. I'll be making a donation, being a federal employee I'm still gainfully employed and still getting paid. Unlike last year during the shutdown, even got 4 day weekends now as to limit our exposure. Karma can be a good thing sometimes.
Great!
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: