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Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i

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Hi I'm new here. Recently upgraged from Magnepan 1.7i to 3.7i speakers but finding many vocals sound really harsh and grainy.
I kept the same amp a Parasound Halo 2.1 integrated. The harshness appears on both CD's and lps. As a general rule just playing music sounds fine its the vocals that ate irretating. Wondering if anyone else has this combo and how it sounds.Everything sounded fine with the 1.7i. This grainy harshness makes many of my favs unenjoyable.
Joto

Follow Ups:

RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - LineSource 08:58:38 05/29/18 (12)
A lot of people are suggesting a more robust amp. If you take that route, look for an Emotiva XPA-2 Gen 2 on the used market. A lot of Emotiva owners are selling their Gen 2s to "upgrade" to the Gen 3s. The XPA-2 Gen 2 is a beast of an amp and should provide all the clean power you need for those 3.7s. It's 300 w into 8 ohms and 500 w into 4 ohms. Emotiva speced their 1st generation of this amp at 250 w into 8 ohms even though it easily cranked out 300. See my post about company specs.
LineSource
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 12:08:30 05/29/18 (11)
  I had Emo xpa 1L monos with my 1.7 and they continuously shut down and had to be returned.
  Currently eyeing Pass 250, Bryston 7b mono and JC 1.
  I'm lucky my wife will go along with a huge budget stretch
  
  Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - LineSource 13:05:24 05/29/18 (1)
    Both 1Ls were shutting off? That's very odd. Did you have them send you new amps or just return them for a refund?
    LineSource
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 13:11:21 05/29/18 (0)
      Rwturned for repairs about 4 times over 12 months till they finally gave me a refund.
      The Parasound Hint was a huge improvement in sound , quality and reliability.
      Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 12:38:53 05/29/18 (8)
    tortjohn if you want a good amp for your 3.7i go look at the PrimaLuna Premium Dialogue HP or HP mono's. I replaced my Audio Research DS450M's (600wpc) with PL HP's (192wpc) and have never looked back. They sell for $3899 stereo or $7,790 for a pair. You can get them with KT150's. They now drive my 20.7's and will probably be the last speaker and amp I will ever own.
    
    Cheers
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 18:00:54 05/29/18 (7)
      I'll check those out. Didn't realize that put out that much power.
      Joto
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 08:00:06 05/30/18 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on May 29, 2018 at 18:00:54
        
        John if your really interest in the PrimaLuna amps for your 3.7i', call Kevin Deal at Upscale Audio and tell him Tony from Seattle recommended you.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 08:10:47 05/30/18 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by bluesy41 on May 30, 2018 at 08:00:06
        
        I was looking more at the other three.
        Try to avoid made in China I can. Also looking gently used due to budget.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 10:11:52 05/30/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on May 30, 2018 at 08:10:47
        
        I understand but for the record they are not made in China.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 10:34:19 05/30/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by bluesy41 on May 30, 2018 at 10:11:52
        
        Oh I was going by a Stereophile article that said designed in the Netherlands built in China. Are they now built in some other country?
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 12:55:42 07/02/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on May 30, 2018 at 10:34:19
        
        Just went over my head and pulled the trigger on a Pass 250.8 amp and XP 10 pre, the sound is totally amazing with the 3.7i Maggie. The Parasound Hint was a great match with my 1.7i but just didn't make for me with some music on the 3.7i.
        Still a slight touch of grain on some 69's rock but I think they are just bad recorgings.
        Everything is better with the Pass as well as it should be at 5x the cost.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 14:50:11 07/02/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on July 02, 2018 at 12:55:42
        
        Thank you to all who offered valuable suggestions.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 18:39:25 07/02/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on July 02, 2018 at 14:50:11
        
        Wow. I don't think you can go wrong there!! Congrats
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Joe Schmo 15:31:25 04/07/18 (4)
I haven't read through the whole post, but I know there was some speculation as to the Halo Integrated's power amp capability and its ability to drive the 3.7s. Here is a link to a pretty convincing review that the Halo 2.1 is indeed up to the task. The reviewer specifically mentions the fine quality of the vocal reproduction. I hope this helps to narrow down the cause of your issue and get the problem solved.
-Joe

They're not that big!
- Parasound Halo Integrated 2.1 with Magnepan 3.7i Review (Open in New Window)
Edits: 04/07/18
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 04:47:36 04/08/18 (3)
  Thanks for the nice review it makes me feel better as I used all my audio cash on the speakers.
  Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - scruffy_ 12:55:03 04/12/18 (2)
    I had the same issues with my 1.6. regular music sounded great but vocals were a nightmare. I tried everything, and nothing seemed to help until I upgraded my crossovers. The vocals on my system (much choral music) now sound as smooth anything I have ever heard. It's a bitch to get corrected, but that was where my poor vocals became as smooth as can be. I may have lost a little on the dynamics, but the vocals are superb!
    
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Humility is the true mark of genius. Just get used to it."
    -Anonymous
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 11:47:13 04/13/18 (1)
      Hope I don't need to go that far. Have noticed some improvements by repositioning speakers. Still some harshness noticed in vocals especially my beloved 60's 70's rock.
      Joto
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 15:01:06 04/13/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 13, 2018 at 11:47:13
        
        Try playing and tweaking your speaker toe in. Make small subtle changes until you get the sound you desire.
        Cheers
        
        Edits: 04/13/18
Get back to the beginning: facts - DrChaos 12:05:06 04/03/18 (10)
Questions:

1) When was the last time you cleaned your contacts with a solution?

2) What is the value of the midrange resistor currently installed?

3) What is the value of the tweeter resistor currently installed?

We have heard the problem.
- RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - tortjohn@yahoo.com 12:37:30 04/03/18 (9)
  I'm currently using the 1 ohm resistor provided by Magnepan on the midrange and no resistor on the tweeter. Have dry wiped contacts but not wet cleaned.
  
  Joto
  - RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - DrChaos 13:49:10 04/03/18 (0)
    Right now your speakers are set as if a hypothetical midrange adjustment were a little above 0 towards the '+', and the tweeter is pegged at maximum "+".
    
    Your mission plan: Clean contacts.
    
    Change resistors to 1.5/1.5 ohms mid/tweet. Resistors add up in series, btw.
    
    Get used to that sound for a couple of weeks. Then tweak +/- 0.5 ohms at at time. E.g. 1.5/2 1/2 2/1 2/1.5 2/2.
  - RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - bluesy41 13:12:48 04/03/18 (7)
    What type of fuse are you using for the tweeter? Did you modify/ bypass your tweeter fuse.
    
    Cheers
    - RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - tortjohn@yahoo.com 13:58:05 04/03/18 (6)
      Haven't done any mods using whatever stock fuses that came with speakers.
      Joto
      - RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - Audiophilander 12:18:36 04/04/18 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Get back to the beginning: facts posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 03, 2018 at 13:58:05
        
        John, in my own quest for informed answers to your situation I came across your queries on two other forums, Audiogon & Audio Circle. Nothing wrong with reaching out for more POV, but I suspect you may be struggling with sensory overload from too many wide ranging opinions.
        Most of the advice you've been given here and elsewhere is well reasoned, but not all. For instance, it's too early for anyone without first hand knowledge of your system to be speculating that something is definitely wrong with your speakers simply because they may have been purchased second hand. There's no evidence to support that theory.
        Where I think we've gotten off the track is that there's still too much missing info about your system for those trying to troubleshoot what you're hearing. Full knowledge of your gear and listening environment is crucial to understanding your system before sharing useful opinions in lieu of actually hearing your Maggies. It's like conducting a forensic examination without access to either a body or the crime scene.
        Your room is 12' X 15', right? Is your floor wood or carpeted? Have you experimented with other borrowed amps with more wpc? Are you using any room treatments to soften the edginess of hard reflective surfaces? Do you use one or more subs? If so, with or without an active crossover? Top to bottom, what is your system set-up (components, interconnects & speaker cables)? Are your speakers positioned far enough from the back wall? Have you tried moving them further out? Any special wiring considerations (interconnects & speaker cables) and/or power treatments? Front end music sources (higher end source components)? Note: Apologies in advance for info you've already provided in various conversations here and on other boards.
        We know what amplification you're currently using (240 wpc into 4 Ohms is a little shy of what 3.7i Maggies like, but it shouldn't make them sound grainy (especially if they didn't sound that way with the 1.7i system you had before), but to eliminate this as a possible factor, I'd suggest borrowing or auditioning other, meatier, amps in your system before drawing any conclusions about your speakers.
        Note: I'm not being judgmental here, ...just trying to help figure out what has been going so wrong. The fact that you enjoyed them in your system with little or no complaint for two months before the sound deteriated is curious. Break-in should work the other way. Of course, if these were purchased second-hand or were dealer demos, then they should've already been broken in sound wise.
        Sudden changes usually suggest something catastrophic occurred which you may not even be aware of beyond the sound signature deteriation. It could be anything from a power surge to a compromised component in the chain (amp, preamp, CD player, cartridge and/or stylis). The process of locating and resolving problems can be laborious, but often turn out to be a simpler issue to fix than originally perceived.
        If you utilize an image sharing service, I'd recommend posting one or more photos of your listening room as currently set-up. The old saying about a picture being worth a thousand words has a good deal of merit in lieu of having an in home group listening session with like minded Maggie owners.
        FTR, my 3.7i Maggies sound great going on nearly four years now. Yes, there's always something that can be tweaked which will either prove to be an improvement or detriment to the Maggie sound, but overall, with a good power source, front end (CD &/or LP) and well thought out room treatments & placement, contentment with the 3.7i is almost universal. In short, these speakers are sweet and darned near bulletproof.
        Respectfully,
        AuPh
        
        Edits: 04/04/18
        
        RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - Green Lantern 20:16:48 04/04/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Get back to the beginning: facts posted by Audiophilander on April 04, 2018 at 12:18:36
        
        > > > > it's too early for anyone without first hand knowledge of your system to be speculating that something is definitely wrong with your speakers simply because they may have been purchased second hand. There's no evidence to support that theory. < < < < < < <
        Well.... not necessarily true, although no speaker company is perfect, I've seen 1st owners here who've had issues with their brand new panels including some with loose solder joints and (believe it or not) delam!--that's right, someone's new 1.7 had delam issues (or so he says)- which was really surprising since those are supposedly using the new adhesive, and then also those few having the 'listing' sound issues.
        NOT suggesting the OP falls into this category, and I trulyhope it's just something minor.
        
        Edits: 04/04/18 04/05/18
        
        RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - Audiophilander 01:12:41 04/05/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Get back to the beginning: facts posted by Green Lantern on April 04, 2018 at 20:16:48
        
        I don't disagree at all with what you're saying. My point was that advice was proffered to him in absolute terms on another forum board, then backed up by someone else as a fact and the likeliest scenario. Neither of the folks who advised him in that thread had heard his speakers, even if they knew someone who'd experienced bad second hand Maggies in someone else's system.
        
        I'm just wary of bananas being substituted for apples (although I do use banana connectors in my system). ;0)
        
        Like you, I hope that his situation is something minor and not attributable to his speakers.
        
        AuPh
        
        RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - Emil 07:53:27 04/05/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Get back to the beginning: facts posted by Audiophilander on April 05, 2018 at 01:12:41
        
        Well that would be me.
        Seems like some of the best minds here and over at Audiocircle have assisted with this hashness issue to no avail.
        When do we point the finger at the 3/7i itself.
        
        I suggested he call magnepan directly to coordinate with a local dealer
        to have them inspected. If the speaker is the problem, they can assist in sending them back to Magnepan for repair.
        
        RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - bluesy41 08:25:10 04/05/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Get back to the beginning: facts posted by Emil on April 05, 2018 at 07:53:27
        
        Did you guys read my last post? He bought these used as part of estate deal and they were previously modified. The left speaker has some brass material stuck in it that he's been trying to get out, but with no luck. He doesn't have the original jumpers just the mods that came with the speaker. I suspect that the jumper may be causing some signal interference with the brass remnants. He's going to contact Magnepan to see options for removal and getting new jumpers.
        
        If anyone knows how to remove the remnants I'm certain he would be most appreciative as I am not that technical.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Get back to the beginning: facts - Audiophilander 00:55:58 04/06/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Get back to the beginning: facts posted by bluesy41 on April 05, 2018 at 08:25:10
        
        > > > "Did you guys read my last post?" < < <
        
        There are now 110 posts in this thread. Sadly, that's one I missed.
        
        > > > "He bought these used as part of estate deal and they were previously modified. The left speaker has some brass material stuck in it that he's been trying to get out, but with no luck. He doesn't have the original jumpers just the mods that came with the speaker. I suspect that the jumper may be causing some signal interference with the brass remnants." < < <
        
        I wish John had included that information in his first post. I've read less frightening descriptions of shrapnel damage in a war zone.
        
        > > > "He's going to contact Magnepan to see options for removal and getting new jumpers." < < <
        
        Sage advice.
        
        Cheers,
        AuPh
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - paul3 13:09:21 04/01/18 (1)
I recently replaced the 1 Ohm Mills resistors in my .7's with 2 Ohm. When streaming, a great deal of digital harshness is gone and overall the sound is better balanced with no discernible loss of "air." Now, upon further listening, I would say that the improvement is remarkable. I have some 2.5 Ohm resistors that I'll try as well.
I use Amarra sQ+ running flat. The 2 Ohm resistors also help make my Deutsche Grammophon digital vinyl recordings listenable. :)

Edits: 04/01/18 04/01/18
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - paul3 12:57:20 04/03/18 (0)
  2.5's are too much in my system.
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 08:06:59 03/30/18 (27)
One off the top of my head Beatles White 09 cd reissue
Martha My Dear wicked grainy especially at beginning of vocal .
Will start making a list to post as I listen.
Thank again everyone for the help.
Joto
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 14:58:47 04/02/18 (22)
  More Beatles listening 09 cd remaster from Revolver Dr Robert and I want to tell you both grainy also Renaissance Novella Sire lp DA 7526 also grainy sounding.
  
  Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 14:17:05 04/03/18 (0)
    Side 2 sounded good a few fuzzy buzzy spots mostly in Pauls big looping bass notes.
    The vinyl actually sounded better than the cd.
    Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 15:18:14 04/02/18 (20)
    Ok your a Beatles fan. Me too. How does side 2 of Abbey Road sound?? I find that sounds swell on my 20.7s.
    Also how about telling us about your speaker position/ room dimensions. Initially I had something like this that went away with room positioning and I believe some break in of the low end panels.
    
    Edits: 04/02/18
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Green Lantern 20:41:32 04/02/18 (11)
      I'm just thinking out loud and not really directing this at anyone but I can't for the life of me understand why these occurrences are limited to vocals and not instruments. And if most vocals are engineered/mix into the center field, I wonder how a trumpet would sound (supposedly the closest instrument to a human voice), would it also sound 'harsh/raspy?
      Again, I'm scratching my head on this one; I just know this would drive me crazy as heck.
      Then again hell it could just be an anomaly limited to that one pair. Maggies are great speakers but they can also have some weird sh** going on inside em'. Example being when I had my 1.6s they played great for a while and then out of the blue the sound started 'leaning' to the right side and stayed there for a few days. So much in fact I'd have to turn the balance knob to correct it (but it really wouldnt' correct them in a sense). For a while I thought it was just me until I started coming to this site and reading about folks who actually returned their speakers to their dealers who shared the same experience (not very many over the years, maybe one or two). But in my case after a while they would then magically correct themselves and play normally.
      And yes, my hearing is fine.
      And this would revisit itself just recently with my MG20s. I became a Tidal subscriber about 2 months ago and was having the time of my life until one day most of the vocals and insturments started occupying the right side. So much so in fact I thought my XO's were going bad or perhaps my interconnects were shorting out...but then I'd hear cymbals and midrange/bass on the right side (at correct volume and 'naturally' not abrupt or unnatural) and then I'd relax. But for the most part the vocals would stay to the right -and not just one channel or genre, just about 'every' vocal would lean to the right side. Well the weekend showed up and just when I was about to swap speaker sides I switched over to Pandora and Bam! everything fell into place, every Pandora station had perfect imaging, perfect sound staging with vocals dead center in perfect stereo. Although the quality of Tidal was far greater than Pandora (street version, not high quality) I decided to drop Tidal for now and focus on Pandora, possibly going high qual in the near future. I can't explain why Pandora plays perfectly while Tidal seemed to list to the right side. Of course this isn't really a Maggie issue at all just interesting how this unfolded. I may eventually return one day to Tidal but I'm in no hurry; in fact my listening habits right now are limited due to the wife being off for a couple of weeks and she doesn't 'understand' jazz music.
      Well I've babbled enough for now and I know this won't help the OP, but again- I wouldn't discount the fact he may just have a 'weird pair'.
      
      Edits: 04/02/18 04/02/18 04/03/18 04/03/18
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Norman M 16:49:28 04/03/18 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Green Lantern on April 02, 2018 at 20:41:32
        
        Of course you can't play music as loud as this in one's listening room, but during the finale of Mahler's Symphony No. 1, (there is a 'quote' from Handel), he instructs the horn section to do what can be seen at ~1:49 during this clip:
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsLrJmHVcvw
        
        I play several of my Mahler 1 recordings pretty damn loud over my IV-As and detect no "harshness". If that doesn't come over 'harsh', I don't believe anything else ever will, (and although it doesn't blow fuses, it's comforting to have them present).
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 07:54:37 04/04/18 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Norman M on April 03, 2018 at 16:49:28
        
        So after speaking to tortjohn via email I think this maybe a product of a modification that was made by replacing his jumpers on his 3.7i's. In particularly he mentioned that when he bought them the left speaker had remnants of a brass jumper broken off in the housing of the speaker. Not saying this is the culprit but definitely would explain some of the harshness IMHO. TortJohn please let me know if I misrepresented. He's going to see if he can get a set of the original jumpers.
        Cheers
        
        Edits: 04/04/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Norman M 09:08:51 04/04/18 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by bluesy41 on April 04, 2018 at 07:54:37
        
        If I replaced an original jumper with a small section of my speaker wire I can't anticipate that causing harshness. My biggest problem might be getting rid of all the remnants.
        
        I'm familiar with 'grasping at straws', but 'grasping at jumpers' is a new one. :-)
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 09:22:53 04/04/18 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Norman M on April 04, 2018 at 09:08:51
        
        Let me clarify it's getting the remnants out first and then listening with the original jumpers to see if the vocal harshness persist.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 06:41:13 04/06/18 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by bluesy41 on April 04, 2018 at 09:22:53
        
        Taking a few days to clear the brain and ears. No remnants of copper wire in speakers, did replace all jumbers with Maggie supplied resistors. Did take the time to clean all connections on speakers.
        One cd listen Stephen Stills Manassas Pieces many grainy passages especially on left speaker hard to tell if its just a crappie recording hope someone else has it and can comment.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 08:53:01 04/06/18 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 06, 2018 at 06:41:13
        
        You need a standard 'test' recording to go to.... For vocals - I know how certain recordings sound or are supposed to sound... For me - the Norah Jones - first album.... Solid vocal in the middle - no grainy ... no sibilance etc.... And, the instruments are minimalist - upright bass, piano, brushes on the drums.... with vocals recorded in what I would call a forward manner.... There are plenty to choose from.... So far, I have just heard you test with 1970/60s rock recordings ... and yes some of them are good... but.... most of them are known for their sub-par recordings (and yes I know there are some good ones.... no need to list them)..... So do you have anything like that so you can hang your hat on a standard?
        
        Another excellent suggestion. - Audiophilander 11:49:04 04/06/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by timm on April 06, 2018 at 08:53:01
        
        Another fine test disc (CD) is the sampler that comes free with Sanders gear. There's a broad selection of recordings from blues to pop, classical & jazz, instrumental as well as male & female vocalists. Great music for checking out gear in general.
        
        I have an extra or John can always inquire about a copy from the Sanders Sound site.
        
        Cheers,
        AuPh
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Norman M 10:39:56 04/06/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by timm on April 06, 2018 at 08:53:01
        
        Yusuf Islam: 1970's Tea for the Tillerman, Teaser and the Firecat, Catch Bull at Four (or 'The Best of Cat Stevens') no harshness, graininess, nor sibilance there, and IMHO much better recorded than Norah's 'First Album' in which she sounds much the same as in any/all (?) the others :-).
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 12:35:10 04/06/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Norman M on April 06, 2018 at 10:39:56
        
        Exactly. She sounds so much the same. The point of trying to get a baseline.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 09:06:52 04/06/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by timm on April 06, 2018 at 08:53:01
        
        Yes I'll try Norah on cd and lp later.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 09:24:44 04/06/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 06, 2018 at 09:06:52
        
        Oh great. Cold cold heart or nearness of you. Those should sound swell in my opinion.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 16:01:34 04/02/18 (7)
      Room 11'-6" x 15 sprakers on 11'-6" wall 20" from side wall tweeter in 27"from raer wall outside 40 " from rear wall about 79" from center positions of speakers .Currently using resistor on midrange. Room has equiptment rack as well as multiple lp and cd shelving.
      Will try Abbey Road from 09 cd box tomorrow.
      Joto
      
      Edits: 04/02/18
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 17:48:13 04/06/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 02, 2018 at 16:01:34
        
        tortjohn based on your room dimensions I would say placement is definitely a issue. I would if possible try using the 15ft wall. Maggie's are all about placement.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 18:07:11 04/06/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by bluesy41 on April 06, 2018 at 17:48:13
        
        Unfortunately setting them on the 15' wall is not possible. I did move them a bit closer to the side wall. Listened to Norah Jones and some Cat Stevens sounded good. I asume Jones has some harshness in her voice in places.
        Will try some remastered Fleetwood Mac tomorrow.. Maybe my 60's r&r wasn't made for Maggie's.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Norman M 06:07:33 04/07/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 06, 2018 at 18:07:11
        
        It's hard not to like at least some of this music, the voice(s)/ and recordings are hard to improve upon. and it's a challenge for the world's best speakers, (even a 30.7 :-):
        
        https://tinyurl.com/ybo5rfhx
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 15:16:57 04/07/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Norman M on April 07, 2018 at 06:07:33
        
        If anyone has placement ideas for my 11-6 x 15 room let me know. Speakers must be on 11-6 wall currently 16" from side wall tweeters inside 29" from rear wall mid, bass 42" from rear wall.
        I appreciate all the responses.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 20:28:32 04/06/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 06, 2018 at 18:07:11
        
        Whoa whoa whoa!!! You thought you were just going to get to enjoy your music now??? :). What I would do is take some of those songs you liked that we all know are pretty good recordings like you just listened and start fiddling with speaker placement. Not for the purpose of keeping the speaker there - but to listen for the impact. Move them out... toe them in or out. Are tweeters in or out? See if anything changes for you in the positive direction. Get some tape - mark off where they are currently at so you can put them back. Now if you pull them out ... or whatever and things improve at least you know it is some type of room interaction based on placement. All is not lost as you could consider room treatments at that point.
        
        My assumption is that you are not cranking the volume. Cranking volume in a small room can definitely create overload and give you a harsher sound me thinks.
        
        Re: any harshness in the mids - in my fiddling - i have found more toe in has a tendency to reduce that as does moving the speakers a little closer together. But the whole point here is to move them around - drastically to hear the impact and go from there. Your definition of harsh could be my definition of diffuse.
        
        And Christine Mcvie should sound pretty great when you put on Fleetwood Mac.
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 20:39:37 04/02/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 02, 2018 at 16:01:34
        
        tortjohn based on your room dimensions I would say placement is definitely a issue. I would if possible try using the 15ft wall. Maggie's are all about placement.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 04:20:00 04/03/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by bluesy41 on April 02, 2018 at 20:39:37
        
        Unfortunately there is no way to work them on the 15' wall.
        Joto
        http://tortjohn@yahoo.com (Open in New Window)
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - neolith 14:09:12 03/31/18 (1)
  Listened on my 3.7i. Just a crappy recording. Put on Mel Torme, "Luck Be a Lady" which is probably a 1950's recording. Smooth as silk ala the "Velvet Fog". Nothing you do is going to make this pig look like Marilyn Monroe. Perhaps the 3.7 is bringing out all the imperfections but I suspect this recording didn't sound too good on your 1.7 either.
  
  I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 14:39:24 03/31/18 (0)
    In my 3 years with 1.7 and 1.7i I can't recall ever hearing any fuzz or buzz or distortion. Maybe there are just lots of nad r&r recordings I'm noticing now.
    Joto
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - josh358 13:26:08 03/31/18 (0)
  Just went and listened to it. It's a very distorted recording in all three versions I have.
- it sounds like that somewhat - DrChaos 09:14:09 03/31/18 (0)
  On my maggie 3.6's as well, and that's with 1.5 ohm tweeter attenuation resistors & the choke tweak.
  
  It's not too bad with the attenuation, but a lot of what you're hearing is the harshness and "sssshhh" that comes from excessively heavy dynamic range compression algorithms applied in the remastering of pop music. (Their target is to 'pop out' on earbuds). Most likely if you had a revealing headphone, like Sennheiser HD800, you'd hear it too.
  
  I hear none of it with modern well recorded classical (they don't do that shit there).
  
  Advice: increase your midrange tweeter attenuation resistor. Like one ohm or higher.
  
  BTW The 3.7's midrange, being a fast QR (which is a tweeter in other implementations) goes higher than the 3.6's and the relative frequency ranges are in the midrange.
  
  Also increase your bass below 200Hz as well, your ear and brain is sensitive to global balance.
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Norman M 07:00:24 03/30/18 (1)
On the chance that one (or more) of the inmates here owns or can stream the offending vocals, you might consider identifying the recordings in question. Needless to say ...
- Excellent suggestion. - Audiophilander 12:46:41 03/30/18 (0)
  Identification of all relevant factors, including music sources, is important. It would allow some folks here with 3.7i Maggies to cross check what he's hearing on their own systems. Not to get too much into the weeds, it would also be helpful knowing the format and pressing of those music sources as well as front end components (CD player, turntable & cartridge, etc.). IOW, anything and everything in the audio "chain" provides useful info on what might've changed after the first two months of break-in to degrade the sound.
  
  Troubleshooting long distance requires an industrial grade crystal ball (mine is hazy). The degradation of sound could just as easily originate from his amplifier, pre-amp, music source or perhaps something in power distribution chain between components (less likely, but possible). For instance, if he utilizes tubes anywhere in the chain, those should be rolled and rechecked.
  
  I'm not suggesting that a failing component has to be the culprit, but unless something has gone wrong with his new speakers; they should be sounding better, not worse. My 2 cents (adjusted for increased capital gains).
  
  Cheers,
  AuPh
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - George6 18:05:47 03/29/18 (18)
"...makes many of my favs unenjoyable."

But are there _some_ vocals that sound OK on your 3.7i?
I moved from the 1.6 to the 3.7i, using the Halo A21 on both. The ribbon tweeter was quite a change and, yes, it made some of my recordings sound too bright and at times harsh. But I suspect this is the way the music was recorded, and the 3.7i's are simply more accurate in showing that.
I do have many recordings that sound really good, both vocals and instrumentals, but I continue to be surprised at the problems revealed - and not just in the treble - by some of the tracks that I used to think were OK.

I doubt that the A21 is the problem, unless you are really blasting it; mine gets slightly warmer than it did with the 1.6s, but never runs hot.
Before I bought the speakers, I called Magnepan, and was told that the A21 was a very good amp for the 3.7i.

The 1 ohm resistors supplied with the speakers killed all the highs in my room; 3/4 ohm Duelund resistors have tamed things to a degree.
With ribbon tweeters, I found that high frequencies were being reflected more strongly and from different places than with the 1.6s, so I spent quite a bit of time experimenting with the placement of 3" thick foam wedge panels. This was tricky -- sibilants on some vocal recording were coming from off to one side, while the vocalist was well centred. High frequencies also varied depending on whether I was standing or sitting.
Eventually these problems were solved, but some recordings are still so bright they can take the enamel off your teeth.
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - jazzbeat 02:45:45 03/30/18 (12)
  In regards to the planar technology used in the 1.7 and 3.7 it is very much the same as the Eminent VIII using a flat conductor boded to the mylar. I experience the same phenomenon with my ET;s at higher levels.
  In a few national reviews metallic sound was mentioned as to this issue. I tend to believe there could be a resonance issue on the diaphragm itself causing these qualities in as such and IM issue. ( thd ). This did become an issue with my Magnepan 1.7.s as well at higher volume levels. You might want to do some reading on the nature of IM distortion..
  Cheers.
  
  Edits: 03/30/18
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - BDP24 10:09:17 03/30/18 (11)
    jazzbeat, I have to correct one piece of misinformation in your post. The ET LFT-8 does NOT have a flat conductor bonded to the Mylar as do Maggies. It has a conductive film that is vapor-deposited on the Mylar in place of wires, with much lower moving mass.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Roger Gustavsson 13:42:56 04/05/18 (4)
      BDP24 wrote: "jazzbeat, I have to correct one piece of misinformation in your post. The ET LFT-8 does NOT have a flat conductor bonded to the Mylar as do Maggies. It has a conductive film that is vapor-deposited on the Mylar in place of wires, with much lower moving mass."
      
      Not according to the technical data, www.eminent-tech.com/techsuppt.htm
      It is Mylar (12�m)+adhesive (4.5�m)+aluminium foil (9 �m). Will result in lower moving mass than some Magneplanar drivers but not all of them.
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - BDP24 14:35:17 04/05/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Roger Gustavsson on April 05, 2018 at 13:42:56
        
        Thanks for the facts Roger, I stand corrected. I don't remember where I got the mistaken notion of the construction of the LFT driver. I definitely remember being impressed by the description of a layer of conductive film being "vapor deposited" onto the Mylar. And, that the conductive traces visible on the Mylar are the result of that layer of conductive film being "etched away" everywhere except where the traces are desired. Those traces, which visibly resemble the traces on a circuit board, do the same job as do the wires glued onto the Mylar in the magnetic-planar drivers used in Maggies. Those gauge of those wires, with their respective mass, varies according to which Maggie model they are found in, but even if they are not all of greater mass than the ET conductive traces, I find the ET traces to be a more attractive technology than the Magnepan wires. No delamination, if for no other reason.
        ET's Bruce Thigpen, it is said, is very respectful of Jim Winey and his Magneplanar design, and goes out of his way to not tout the superior of his LFT design to that of the Maggies. While respectful of Winey's design, Thigpen considers the conductive film a better method of moving the driver Mylar than wires, and I agree, whether or not the film is of lower mass than the wires. At the end of the day, it's the sound that matters, so whether Magneplanar or Eminent Technology, all hail magnetic-planar loudspeakers!
        
        Edits: 04/05/18 04/07/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - josh358 17:31:19 05/13/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by BDP24 on April 05, 2018 at 14:35:17
        
        Magnepan solved the delam problem with the new adhesive, so it isn't an issue except for those of us with older Maggies. I've asked Wendell about etching and vapor deposition with Wendell. They actually built a facility in the factory to do it, but they found that it was too difficult to make production changes, so stuck with hand application.
        
        In general, manufacturers of larger planars seem to prefer adhesive, while small planars like the BG's use vapor deposition or etching because the adhesive melts when thermally stressed. The disadvantage of adhesive is the added mass, but the adhesive does help to damp the diaphragm . . .
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 15:15:03 05/22/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by josh358 on May 13, 2018 at 17:31:19
        
        Purchased the 1.5 and 2.0 ohm resistors from Magnepan but after listening I didn't enjoy the results, they legt my music sounding dull, gone were the cymbals, tambourine and high end energy. Maybe I'll try another amp next .I'm open to suggestions
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Satie 14:08:53 05/13/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by BDP24 on April 05, 2018 at 14:35:17
        
        It isn't very practical to deposit more than 1 micrometer thick aluminum by PCVD. You can get commercially made 0.5um film. The thicker film will be made with an adhesive layer by rolling the Al and mylar sheets together after the adhesive is sprayed on. You can do thicker layers of PCVD metal on more temperature resistant films like polyimides like what is used on Neo drivers from BG.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - jazzbeat 17:34:47 03/30/18 (5)
      In response there is a flim backing used to hold the ribbon to the mylar with the Magnepan while the ET Laminates ( essentially the same thing)
      the foil to the mylar. Magnepan has little information as to their ribbon foil thickness . As for ET their foil is .00033 inch with the mylar being .0005 inch thick itself. Either way were are talking very thin foil. As indicated in Magnepan appears to use a film backing to apply their foil.
      http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_16
      
      Cheers....
      
      Edits: 03/30/18 03/30/18
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - BDP24 08:05:48 03/31/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by jazzbeat on March 30, 2018 at 17:34:47
        
        jazzbeat, is it of the Maggie ribbon tweeter that you were speaking (in terms of it and the ET LFT)? I thought you were speaking of the Magneplanar magnetic-planar drivers, which have conductive wires glued onto them. In contrast, the LFT magnetic-planar driver has a conductive film rather than wires. The entire Mylar sheet in the LFT has the film applied as a "vapor deposit", then all of the film except that which is to become the conductors is etched off the Mylar, leaving what resembles the traces on a circuit board. The film is of course lower in moving mass than the wires glued onto the Maggie m-p drivers, and doesn't delaminate (so far!) from the Mylar as do the Maggie wires. And then the LFT-8b has a ribbon tweeter as well.
        
        Edits: 03/31/18 03/31/18 03/31/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - jazzbeat 11:08:17 03/31/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by BDP24 on March 31, 2018 at 08:05:48
        
        I am the third time owner of the LFT VIII. I know from experience as well as conversations with Bruce Thigpen that the foil , yes foil applied
        to the Eminent Technology speaker is laminated and then the foil not needed etched away in a similar fashion as pc copper is etched from a pc board. I have also owned and used the LFT 6 as well as the LFT 16 models over the years. I am presently using LFT VIII and while I enjoyed the Magnepan 1.7's I also owned over the years I remain an ET customer.
        Here is an article by ET explain their construction.
        http://www.eminent-tech.com/company/lftcpmp.html
        Cheers..
        
        Edits: 03/31/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - BDP24 22:20:12 04/01/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by jazzbeat on March 31, 2018 at 11:08:17
        
        jazzbeat, you have had the LFT-6? I looked for a pair for a while, and found them only in one of the far-off Asian countries, so passed. How do the LFT-6 and LFT-8b differ? Do you prefer the LFT-8b, overall?
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - jazzbeat 02:55:49 04/02/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by BDP24 on April 01, 2018 at 22:20:12
        
        I was impressed with the larger scale in the mid range. Having quite a bit more surface area gave one the feel of a large Maggie or Apogee. The pair I had were a old set needing new panels at around 1500 from Eminent at the time so I let them go. They sounded great and encompassing in their sound field like the Apogees I owned before. Lows were not as powerful as the Apogees however.
        
        Edits: 04/02/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Satie 20:43:24 04/04/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by jazzbeat on April 02, 2018 at 02:55:49
        
        Like the LFT 6 too. Too bad you can't find them any longer.
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 19:15:58 03/29/18 (4)
  Trying different speaker angles with tweeter in. Sometimes it almost sounds fuzzy or buzzed on vocals, you can hear it in the room and when you put your ear up to speaker. Most direct to disc recordings and jazz sound real good. Volume set between 9 and 10 o'clock never real loud. I don't remember hearing this when I first got speakers about 4 months ago, it became noticeable about 6 weeks ago.
  
  Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - DrChaos 11:50:17 03/31/18 (2)
    As I said above, that's sibilance from the recording and probably digital dynamic range compression overdone.
    
    Probably you didn't notice it before but as your brain gets used to the speakers more the gross differences fade away and you notice the small things.
    
    Resistors & EQ are the only remedies---or change your music.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 13:07:44 03/31/18 (1)
      Maybe the 1.7i was a smoother sounding speaker. I've changed the position a bit will try with mid resistors and different positions. One thing will sound good and the next bad.
      Joto
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - DrChaos 13:45:36 03/31/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on March 31, 2018 at 13:07:44
        
        If you had your 1.7's I bet you would start hearing the same thing in the same recordings more once you started paying attention to it.
        
        I think I use higher resistors in my 3.6's than I did in my previous 1.6's---the high frequencies are more extended and open (with good recordings) in the 3 series of course, side by side there was a huge difference.
        
        Additionally the high frequency ribbon has wider dispersion than the QR midrange (which was also the tweeter in 1.x series) so if your room is fairly reflective that will add more to the perception of brightness (you hear both direct and reflected timbre). You may also want to add more diffusion and maybe some absorption behind.
        
        And as I've said before, also increase bass/lower midrange level if you can as your brain hears global balance well.
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - George6 16:42:36 03/30/18 (0)
    If the OP finds that most direct to disc recordings and jazz recordings sound good, then how can there be anything wrong with his system?
    Is it possible that when the speakers first arrived, the first recordings listened to were the ones that sounded good? Then, going through all the other recordings to see how they too sounded, some with bad sound inevitably showed up, and this has now become a point of concern.
    
    As I said in an earlier post, some of my recordings also have razor edge highs. But I decided to voice the system so it sounds best with known good recordings, and not to compensate overall for the problematic ones.
    
    Those are fixed with "tone controls", which can be as simple as the Schitt Loki at a reasonable price, or as complicated as the Behringer DEQ 24/96.
    With the latter, I have patches to emulate the Quad tilt and the B+K ideal curve, plus others constructed to notch out the dominant bass modes in my room, to tame poorly recorded violins etc., etc.
    
    For $150 for the tone control mentioned above, the OP might solve his problems with relative ease.
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 09:59:33 03/29/18 (52)
Have you heard enough speculation yet from the members here? :) As you've found, you won't get any solid advice over on the AudioCirclejerk forum either. :)

Assuming your volume control is still in the same place it was when listening to the 1.7's, then this is not (strictly) a power-related issue. The impedance of these two speakers is essentially the same, but the 1.7's do have a dropping impedance at fairly high frequencies associated with the super-tweeter shunt. However, it seems like your issue is down much lower.

These are completely different speakers, so if you held all other equipment the same and your new 3.7i's are operating correctly, then the issue is the speakers themselves. I tend to agree with the advice to try the attenuation resistors and/or some placement experimentation. Any advice to change amplifiers or cables or other ancillary equipment, I would disregard.....at least for the time being.

Dave.
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - neolith 19:04:14 03/29/18 (51)
  I tend to agree with you but I am suspicious about the amp. Easiest thing is for the OP to take his amp to the dealer and listen to the dealer's 3.7i - something he should have done before buying. Another approach might be to borrow an amp from the dealer.
  
  I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
  - It's been my experience with John Curl designed amplifiers, - Opus 33 1/3 03:14:01 03/30/18 (17)
    that they all have a "house sound," that being just on the warm side of neutral and definitely not bright, hard or etched on top.
    
    I've not heard the A-21 on Maggies, but I have heard it on other speakers, including Thiels. Definitely not bright, grainy or etched.
    
    I have had extensive experience with one of his earlier designs, the Parasound HCA-1500A, driving MMGs. No brightness there, either. And female vocals were outstanding.
    
    I'd suspect ICs or speaker cables before the amp.
    
    Opus 33 1/3
    - RE: It's been my experience with John Curl designed amplifiers, - Green Lantern 04:48:51 03/30/18 (16)
      Gotta agree regarding possible wire/cables.
      When I first read the OP topic it immediately reminded me of my experience with wires in particular-
      I did a XO upgrade on my 1.6's many years ago and I decided to go cheap route and purchased a spool of regular red wire from Radio shack. The moment I fired up my system the harshness hit me to the point I thought someone had swapped out my Jeff Rowland amp with a MCS amp from JC Penny. Funny thing is I knew it had to be the wires so I removed them and used the original stock wires and the harshness went away. I then ordered a spool of teflon coated 999.9% pure silver (not silver coated!) wire and the results were astounding, and I never looked back from that point on.
      And yes although the original post has nothing to do with XO wiring, I'm a firm believer that Maggies will reveal short comings -or more specific- 'incompatibility' of different cables.
      I would recommend the OP borrow a different set of cables or even purchase another set (doesn't have to be ultra-high end; heck even Amazon so you can return them if no difference is noted) to eliminate them as the source of distortion. This experiment would be cheap (compared to swapping out amps) and would eliminate a lot of potential headaches.
      I personally build my own interconnects but have on occasion used 'bargain cables' to demonstrate A-B comparisons.
      Good luck in any event-
      
      Edits: 03/30/18 03/30/18
      - The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. - Opus 33 1/3 09:59:26 03/31/18 (15)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's been my experience with John Curl designed amplifiers, posted by Green Lantern on March 30, 2018 at 04:48:51
        
        I tried some silver clad copper balanced ICs once and they were more than a little bright and etched, compared to plain high purity copper ICs.
        
        Opus 33 1/3
        
        RE: Silver-plated copper has a tendency to "bright and etched", compared to plain high purity copper ICs. ... - andyr 00:15:51 04/22/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. posted by Opus 33 1/3 on March 31, 2018 at 09:59:26
        
        So I don't use them.
        
        Andy
        
        RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. - Satie 11:30:23 03/31/18 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. posted by Opus 33 1/3 on March 31, 2018 at 09:59:26
        
        Same experience. You really need to try and match the wiring to the components. SPC will not work with a truly bright system, unless there is a particularly good metallurgy applied, as int LAT silver clad cable.
        
        RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. - Norman M 07:04:55 04/22/18 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. posted by Satie on March 31, 2018 at 11:30:23
        
        What type(s) of wiring is inside a 30.7? Whenever it occurs to me that the audio signal driving my M/T drivers passes through that tiny filament inside a fuse, all bets are off.
        
        RE: "that tiny filament inside a fuse"!! ... - andyr 19:50:12 04/26/18 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. posted by Norman M on April 22, 2018 at 07:04:55
        
        Absolutely correct, Norman. That's why we do away with the fuse for better sound! :-))
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "that tiny filament inside a fuse"!! ... - Norman M 05:55:00 04/27/18 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "that tiny filament inside a fuse"!! ... posted by andyr on April 26, 2018 at 19:50:12
        
        Not having removed the fuses, I'd have to be a complete idiot to say one way or the other, that the sound is altered. (Additionally it has been reported here that the fuses haven't protected the speakers, which is a different issue.) So, AFAIAC the jury is out.
        
        Perhaps, to be taken into account it seems that Magnepan's $29K baby is fused in the conventional fashion. Considering the accolades the speaker has received from both the hi-end press and 'laymen' alike, the fuses don't drastically alter their sound. If the noise over fuses comes from individuals such as those who need hi-end fuses and are also concerned about their orientation (which end is up/down), plus those who worry about the composition of speakers' jumpers, it can be disregarded.
        
        RE: "So, AFAIAC the jury is out"!! ... - andyr 15:59:26 04/27/18 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "that tiny filament inside a fuse"!! ... posted by Norman M on April 27, 2018 at 05:55:00
        
        You seem not to be able to present a logical argument, Norman - your bias shows.
        
        You wrote: " Not having removed the fuses, I'd have to be a complete idiot to say one way or the other, that the sound is altered. (Additionally it has been reported here that the fuses haven't protected the speakers, which is a different issue.) "
        
        But some people have removed their fuses - and fuse holders. Given they have done something you haven't ... it behoves you to believe them if they say it improves their sound. And given there are many reported instances of ribbons blowing before fuses, some of us can't see any reason to continue on with them. I appreciate you have blown fuses - and saved your ribbons - so are unwilling to remove your fuses. But don't knock the experience of those who have.
        
        You also wrote: " Perhaps, to be taken into account it seems that Magnepan's $29K baby is fused in the conventional fashion. Considering the accolades the speaker has received from both the hi-end press and 'laymen' alike, the fuses don't drastically alter their sound. "
        
        That is a complete non sequitor! Magnepan also have never exhibited their speakers in hardwood frames ... or actively bi- or tri-amped. They exhibit the speakers they make - the fact they don't exhibit "enhanced" / "tweaked" versions doesn't mean these tweaks & enhancements don't deliver in increase in SQ.
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "So, AFAIAC the jury is out"!! ... - Norman M 08:19:30 04/28/18 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "So, AFAIAC the jury is out"!! ... posted by 297 on April 27, 2018 at 15:59:26
        
        It seems Magnepan presented a fused 30.7 to the world for its critical review. Live with it.
        
        (That doesn't imply that a 30.7 might perform better if it was 'fixed' by bypassing their fuses/circuitry.)
        
        RE: As I said ... - andyr 15:01:08 04/28/18 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "So, AFAIAC the jury is out"!! ... posted by Norman M on April 28, 2018 at 08:19:30
        
        Magnepan exhibits the speaker they make - so obviously it was fused. I quite happily live with this - but I know that, if I bought some 30.7s, I could make them sound better simply by:
        * removing the fuses & (more importantly the) fuse holders.
        * replacing the terrible Magnepan speaker terminals with decent ones (unless they've finally stopped using those steel ones, with the 30.7).
        
        Andy
        
        RE: As I said ... - Norman M 06:47:59 05/08/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: As I said ... posted by andyr on April 28, 2018 at 15:01:08
        
        Methinks it's a pleasant pastime. (However, please keep your mitts off my speakers :-).
        
        RE: As I said ... - tortjohn@yahoo.com 07:46:02 05/10/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: As I said ... posted by Norman M on May 08, 2018 at 06:47:59
        
        Not asking to touch only do some friendly listening.
        Joto
        
        RE: As I said ... - Norman M 08:45:34 05/10/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: As I said ... posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on May 10, 2018 at 07:46:02
        
        I think you know that I was only joking, and alluding to fact that many our fellow inmates have 'itchy' fingers, but listen away!
        
        RE: As I said ... - Norman M 10:08:16 05/11/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: As I said ... posted by Norman M on May 10, 2018 at 08:45:34
        
        When I used my Marchand X-O I was able to adjust both HI and LOW levels using its controls. I don't know if 'purists' are in favor using such adjustments. (Resistors about which Mr. Diller speaks come packaged along with (all?) new Maggies.) Magnepan's parts department most likely would be happy to send you a package containing resistors of various values at no cost to you. I have used these resistors (as well as the original jumpers/speaker wire) fastened into banana plugs thereby permitting me to quickly insert/remove them from the speaker jacks to compare their effect.
        
        RE: As I said ... - tortjohn@yahoo.com 07:34:19 05/11/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: As I said ... posted by Norman M on May 10, 2018 at 08:45:34
        
        I talked with Wendell at Magnepan yesterday, he thought the amp and speakers were fine and that I should try 2 ohm resistors in the tweeters and maybe add some difussers behind the speakers. (I just hope I don't lose all my high end with higher value resistors)
        Joto
        
        RE: As I said ... - tortjohn@yahoo.com 05:33:56 05/08/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: As I said ... posted by andyr on April 28, 2018 at 15:01:08
        
        Anyone in the Boston Ma area who has the same speakers and would like to do some listening to each others sysyems please feel free to contact me.
        Joto
        
        RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. - tortjohn@yahoo.com 15:01:43 04/26/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The reason I mentioned ICs and speaker cables is I had a similar experience. posted by Norman M on April 22, 2018 at 07:04:55
        
        Did some listening to Elton John Tumbleweed Connection an lp I use to enjoy very grainy soundind the cd version was a bit better I'm wondering if anyone else has this particular lp to try.
        Thanks
        Hohn
        Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 19:47:46 03/29/18 (32)
    I understand you're suspicious, but there's nothing to base that suspicion on...in the OP's initial query. These two speakers have nearly identical impedance curves and essentially the same sensitivity.
    I'm making an assumption that he's setting the volume control of his Parasound amp at the same settings to achieve the same SPL results. If that's the case, the amplifier is doing essentially the same job it was doing before, and I then have a hard time believing it's an amplifier-related issue.
    
    I get irritated with all the erroneous and speculative commentary that comes with a query like this, but I do understand why it comes.
    Here we have a simple situation with components A, B, C, and D (the speakers.) Component D is changed out and the results are not as expected, but the common suggestion from members here is that the problem is now somewhere in component A, B, or C. :) It could be, but simple common sense would have me turning my attention to component D first.
    
    Dave.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - neolith 05:37:42 03/30/18 (8)
      I hear you but just the same I do have a prejudice against integrated amps and Maggies which like all prejudices is based on nothing :). My point was that the OP could easily (at least if he is reasonably close to his dealer) put to rest the question of speaker issue v amp-speaker mismatch.
      
      I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 05:50:01 03/30/18 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by neolith on March 30, 2018 at 05:37:42
        
        Prejudices don't get us anywhere in objective analysis of this issue.
        
        Dave.
        
        Prejudices don't get us anywhere... - neolith 06:14:33 03/30/18 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 30, 2018 at 05:50:01
        
        Sure, but they definitely keep AA and, in general, the internet lively.
        In any case, your A, B,C, D analysis is a little too simple because the components are not necessarily independent but can have complex interactions. Some amps work better with some speakers and some do not wth neither speaker or amp being at fault. Also your premise that the 1.7 and 3.7 are similar might be amiss - different tweeters, crossover points, etc. Extending your argument and perhaps stretching it beyond what you intended, would an amplifier suitable for a MMG remain suitable for a 20.7 since the senstivities and impedance curves are similar?
        
        I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
        
        Edits: 03/30/18
        
        RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... - Davey 06:22:48 03/30/18 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... posted by neolith on March 30, 2018 at 06:14:33
        
        Yeah, I understand your point, but I don't think there are differing complex interactions here. The only interaction that was changed was the speaker impedance load....and minimally. That's why I specifically noted the similarity of the two speakers in this aspect.
        I also made an important assumption/caveat regarding volume control setting. I hope you caught that.
        
        Regarding your final question....I believe the answer to that is "yes."
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... - bluesy41 08:27:48 03/30/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... posted by Davey on March 30, 2018 at 06:22:48
        
        Dave I agree with a lot that you are saying but the only thing similar between a 1.7 and a 3.7i is the name. The tweeter and crossover is different plus you have a much larger panel. I went from a 1.7i to 3.7i to a 20.7 and found that my ARC DS450M amp that worked great for my 1.7i's sounded less musical with the other two larger panels. Eventually I ended up replacing the amp. As far as cables I was fortunate to be able to do a in house audition with the 3.7i's before buying 1.7i's and was able to match and procure my IC's and speaker cables before I eventually upgraded to the bigger panels. As we all know Maggie's are revealing and will definitely change it's behavior based on room acoustics, cables, amps, tubes and placement especially when coming from 1.7i to a 3.7i.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... - emailtim 12:29:41 03/30/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... posted by bluesy41 on March 30, 2018 at 08:27:48
        
        Blues41,
        I had the same experience when traversing the 1.6, 3.6 and 20.1 chain. Had to replace the amp I really liked which was a 180wpc class A-A/B amp with another beefier 700wpc class A-A/B amp. The smaller amp struggled with the larger panels, clipped and the sweet spot shrunk to 2 inches even though all of the speakers were rated the same @ 500Hz. All of my other gear remained the same.
        
        Edits: 03/30/18
        
        Hypothesis: A/B crossover distortion - DrChaos 14:47:25 03/31/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... posted by emailtim on March 30, 2018 at 12:29:41
        
        is particularly audible in 3.x series.
        Larger A/B amps put the crossover at a higher power level.
        I tested an approximately 120 WPC AB amp, similar class D amp, and a more powerful class D amp which I use now.
        The AB had a small but noticeable distortion or harshness in violins in louder passages (similar most sensitive hearing range of 2-3kHz again).
        The two class D's did not. One sounded though somewhat rolled off or truncated in the very highest frequency. The final one was perfect---NAD M22 with nCore technology.
        Siegfried Linkwitz: "In Class A/B power amplifiers the time variant and amplitude dependent crossover distortion is more harmful than harmonic distortion, because of its impulsive and thus wideband nature. It does not register in the typical high signal level harmonic distortion specification. Crossover distortion changes with bias conditions and is thus a function of the thermal control loop of the amplifier. It must be tested dynamically as output power switches from high to low levels and device temperatures change."
        http://linkwitzlab.com/conclusions.htm (Open in New Window)
        
        Edits: 03/31/18
        
        RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... - bluesy41 12:40:35 03/30/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... posted by emailtim on March 30, 2018 at 12:29:41
        
        Hi emailtim - glad to see that someone else experienced the samething. I like you was disappointed that I had to purchase another amp. I honestly thought that something was wrong with my 3.7's and that I considered trading them for a pair of Vandersteen's. I'm happy to say I'm pretty happy with my choice.
        
        Cheers
        
        RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... - Davey 08:36:55 03/30/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Prejudices don't get us anywhere... posted by bluesy41 on March 30, 2018 at 08:27:48
        
        "Dave I agree with a lot that you are saying but the only thing similar between a 1.7 and a 3.7i is the name."
        
        No, I disagree with that. There are many more similarities, than differences.
        But, I know my POV on this is coming from a different direction than many inmates are accustomed to. :) I'm not sure of the reason for harsh vocals here, but I'm trying to get inmates to consider more objective thinking regarding the possibilities for the issue.
        
        In your case the amplifier was not a voltage source, as the Parasound amplifier is in John's case. That's a relative difference that's important to consider.
        
        Dave.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - emailtim 20:57:42 03/29/18 (22)
      Magnepan rates all of their speakers at 500Hz, even the larger panels that go octaves lower. Their ratings @ 500Hz do not account for the extra octaves of the larger panels (nor the extra real-estate that needs to be moved) and suggest misleading power equivalence assumptions which does not bear out in reality. An amp that works well on a 1 series does not necessary have the ability to handle something in a 3 or 20 series.
      
      Edits: 03/29/18 03/29/18 03/29/18
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 21:37:40 03/29/18 (21)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by emailtim on March 29, 2018 at 20:57:42
        
        Both the 3.7i and 1.7i are rated at 86db sensitivity with the standard 2 watt input that Magnepan has always specified.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - emailtim 21:45:43 03/29/18 (20)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 29, 2018 at 21:37:40
        
        ... and rated at 500 Hz (86dB/500Hz /2.83v), so they are comparing at the same mid-range panel frequency.
        
        Edits: 03/29/18 03/29/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 21:53:10 03/29/18 (19)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by emailtim on March 29, 2018 at 21:45:43
        
        Yeah, that's my point.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - emailtim 22:23:55 03/29/18 (18)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 29, 2018 at 21:53:10
        
        Which doesn't take into account the additional power required by the larger panels to drive the lower octaves. It is a deceiving metric that only tells the story @ 500Hz, not 35Hz or 25Hz where the majority of the power is required.
        I have yet to see Magnepan demo large panels on small integrated amps, coincidence ? At the 30.7 demo, Wendell was asked about the 30.7 specs and he said all Magnepans are about the same and quoted the rating at 500Hz, yet they were being driven by 2 stout stereo amps bridged into mono-blocks.
        
        Edits: 03/29/18 03/29/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 05:48:40 03/30/18 (17)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by emailtim on March 29, 2018 at 22:23:55
        
        You're missing the point.
        The amplifier, if volume adjusted the same as with the previous speakers, is supplying exactly the same power. There's no additional power being applied to drive the lower octaves.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - emailtim 11:51:39 03/30/18 (16)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 30, 2018 at 05:48:40
        
        Ah, no.
        
        The only way your point would be true is to use Magnepan's misleading specs to the letter. That would require playing just a 500Hz tone into both sets of speakers at the same level, thus eliminating the additional power requirements from the larger bass panels that the smaller speakers do not have. I don't remember the OP saying he was only using a 500Hz test tone.
        
        If you are putting the same amount of power into a speaker that consumes more power in the lower bass regions (i.e. full range frequency, not just 500Hz), the power is being divided across a wider frequency band thus taking power from the mid and tweeters to drive the new additional lower frequencies. The amp has more work to do.
        
        Do you agree that the lowest N octaves require more power than the highest N octaves (e.g. bass panels require more power than ribbon tweeters) ?
        Do you agree that the larger panels have more physical surface area to move/control ?
        Do you agree that the larger panels have more mass to move/control ?
        Do you agree that the larger panels produce lower frequencies than the smaller panels (wider frequency band) ?
        Do you agree you don't get a wider frequency band for no additional power (e.g. something for nothing) ?
        
        If so, then then you must agree the larger panels require more power to drive them full range.
        
        The amps I used that worked very well with the 1 series were not able to accomplish the same performance on the 3 and 20 series even though the speakers were all similarly rated by Magnepan @ 500Hz.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 18:21:55 03/30/18 (15)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by emailtim on March 30, 2018 at 11:51:39
        
        Ah, yes. Don't over-complicate it.
        Think about just the difference in impedance loads between the two speakers at the low frequencies you're talking about.
        Remember, I've made the assumption the volume control of the A21 amp is at the same position in either case.
        Obviously both speakers will sound somewhat different (obviously, because they're different speakers) but we're only talking about consumed power here.
        Stated another way. Suppose we play the 3.7 and note the midrange SPL levels. We then disconnect and hookup the 1.7 without changing our system volume control. We note the same midrange SPL levels in either case.
        The 3.7 was obviously making more level in the bass when it played. But did the amplifier have to supply more power to achieve that? Think about that a bit. :)
        Dave.
        
        Edits: 03/30/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Satie 03:41:51 03/31/18 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 30, 2018 at 18:21:55
        
        The specs are misleading. The actual sensitivity measurement comes off different for each maggie model and goes down from the 1 series to the 3 and then the Tympani or 20 series. We posted measurements from the German audio rag that showed it explicitly, the 3 series was
        
        1.6 83.7db
        https://www.stereophile.com/content/magnepan-magneplanar-mg16qr-loudspeaker-measurements
        
        1.7 was given at 82 db. which I think is wrong, It sounded louder at the same vol setting as the 3.7 in real life.
        https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=mug&m=212539
        
        3.7 model was given as 83.1 which is in line with prior 3.x measurements - which come up as 83-83.5db. e,g, 3.6 at Stereophile.
        
        But aside from the greater power demands on playing larger panels to full capacity, (which would include higher volume) I think that in the presence of a tonal balance with more deep bass energy we tend to play at higher volumes to bring the deep bass into easy perception, as the bass hearing compression shown in the Fletcher Munson plot indicates, subjective loudness moves very quickly on the db chart from clear to barely audible to imperceptible as volume moves down.
        So with a speaker with more extension you try it out at the smaller speaker's level and play around louder and softer. You notice that previously inaudible bass is just about perceptible at the small speaker's preferred playback level, but just add a few db and it is clear and present. So that is what you do. So even if the speakers were of the same sensitivity you would still need more power because you will play the bigger speaker more loudly.
        Another reason for this is that of speaker distortion of the larger speaker being less at higher volumes than of the smaller speaker. So you play more loudly as one of the subjective markers of loudness for us is higher distortion, and you don't get it on the larger speaker till you hit a few db higher. I keep an SPL meter in view just for that reason so that I hold back on louder volumes that might damage my hearing since the distortion on the Neo8 array starts at a much louder level than is safe for long term exposure. That way I don't need to get a ringing in my ears to know to back off the volume knob.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 05:34:56 03/31/18 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Satie on March 31, 2018 at 03:41:51
        
        I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be the case, and I don't put much confidence in disparate measurements from published reviews.
        At least for a 1.6/3.6 direct comparison, of which I have personal experience with, I found the same volume settings yielded the same preferred playback levels in both cases. And my MMG's equivalent as well. Actually, I think the volume settings were slightly lower with the 3.6's.
        
        Anyways, I do understand your point about the larger speakers promoting a higher playback level because of their capability and distortion performance, but that's not was I referring to here with my simple premise.
        
        There's a correlation here between power requirements and SPL level, but the thinking regarding it is running off on a tangent.
        Maybe it would help understanding to consider a hypothetical series/parallel wiring arrangement of say four MMG speakers. The impedance load would be identical to a single MMG, but what would the resulting SPL level and power consumption look like? That comes at the issue from a different direction, so don't get confused with my premise. Think about that a bit. :)
        
        Back to the original query. The OP has a really nice $2500 amplifier with excellent power capability. I'm not sure of the reason for the harsh vocals, but I'm 99% sure it's not related to power capability of his Parasound amp. If the advice is he has to change an amplifier like this to support a single step up in the Magnepan product line, then we have a real problem here.
        Understanding the basic motor structures in the Magnepan lineup of speakers needs some further thought by folks like yourself.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Satie 11:22:58 03/31/18 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 31, 2018 at 05:34:56
        
        The many people who switched to higher power amps after going to a bigger maggie and reported a great improvement is just too large to leave the assumption of equal power needs even as similar SPL levels. It could be that the back EMF is the key change when going to a larger model such that more power/damping capacity is needed. But the power/size relationship remains too common an observation not to have a direct physical explanation and be readily measurable.
        
        From my own experiences it is obvious that the Halo Int is not even remotely close to sufficient for a large maggie. Perhaps marginal for a 3.7. Enough if the music isn't large scale and isn't played loud. But well recorded Jazz often has huge dynamic range, and in my initial OEM TIV setup was tipping over the Bryston 4B NRB both when driving the whole speaker and in biamp driving the bass along with a PSE Studio 4 on top, which was also driven into distress. In fact, the harshness of the clipping Bryston on the complete TIV made me regard it as a joke so far as its' being a powerful amp.
        
        Part of it could be that the ribbon tweeter simply reveals amp distortion far better than the QR tweeter. Since you can readily hear A/AB amps coming out of class A operation with a ribbon maggie, whereas the transition is not that easily perceived with a 1.7 or a good competing box speaker.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 13:55:13 03/31/18 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Satie on March 31, 2018 at 11:22:58
        
        Well, I didn't think I'd convince you. :)
        But I do like the last part of your post. This aspect of the 3.X series is a considerable difference accounting for a noticeable change in sound character.
        No interest in my hypothetical four versus one speaker scheme??
        Veering away from the objective, towards the subjective, for a bit......at this very moment I have both 1.7's and MMG's in my listening room. I find the preferred/same (comfortable, not loud) listening level of the 1.7's about -1.5db lower on my preamp volume control than the MMG's. How would you reconcile that considering your stance on this??
        Dave.
        
        Edits: 03/31/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Satie 14:09:40 04/05/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 31, 2018 at 13:55:13
        
        The hypothetical works the other way with more extension and bass capacity and slightly higher output; and thus can't explain the general observation that people tend to switch to more powerful amps after moving to a bigger maggie.
        
        I was always thinking that the sensitivity was slightly lower as you went up the line. But it could just be a behavioral response to the lesser distortion and greater extension that is tempting people to raise playback volume.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 08:31:53 04/06/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Satie on April 05, 2018 at 14:09:40
        
        When common sense and objective evaluation disagrees with a "general observation," then the "general observation" is wrong.
        
        This is very similar to falling into the same trap "Peter Gunn" did years ago.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 08:45:26 04/06/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on April 06, 2018 at 08:31:53
        
        Think I am getting confused with someone else. No mods were done to my Maggies. I did replace the resistors with copper wire jumpers at one time but none of the copoer wire was ever stuck in my speakers. I think someone else posted having that problem.
        I have since gone back to supplied resistors.
        Joto
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - George6 18:48:53 04/01/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 31, 2018 at 13:55:13
        
        "at this very moment I have both 1.7's and MMG's in my listening room. I find the preferred/same (comfortable, not loud) listening level of the 1.7's about -1.5db lower on my preamp volume control than the MMG's."
        
        I can confirm Dave's experience. With one particular recording and the 1.6 speakers, I used to set the preamp volume at 80dB in order to achieve ca. 70dB spl at the listening chair.
        With the 3.7i speakers, and the preamp volume at only 75dB, the same recording produces well over 70 dB at the listening chair.
        
        Only the speakers have changed; the equipment has not varied and the speakers are in the same position as were the 1.6. More sound absorbing panels have been added, which would tend to decrease the loudness. This is not the result of the 3.7i having superior bass, as the spl meter is A weighted.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - DrChaos 14:15:24 03/31/18 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 31, 2018 at 13:55:13
        
        The preamp & is probably a voltage source. 1.7s may be a bit more efficient and lower impedance? And your perceived loudness will be concentrated by power response in the ear's most sensitive bands around 2-3kHz.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 16:51:35 03/31/18 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by DrChaos on March 31, 2018 at 14:15:24
        
        The preamp being a voltage source is irrelevant. The power amp is indeed a voltage source and, as I've been pointing out, the (possible) relative difference in efficiency and/or impedance is the concept the fellas are having trouble grasping. :)
        
        You have no interest in my hypothetical either? :)
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - DrChaos 09:47:34 04/01/18 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on March 31, 2018 at 16:51:35
        
        I don't know what your hypothetical is about, sorry, must have missed something.
        I do think these are electromechanical devices governed by well understood physics.
        Usually, at least with box speakers, larger cabinets mean the ability to make more bass with greater efficiency. With planars it means the dipole resonance (where you get bigger output with lower signal input, though with delayed energy storage) is bigger and at a lower frequency with larger panel size, hypothetically meaning more efficiency as well.
        Of course Magnepan heavily tunes this with the buttons and proprietary tensioning--it is a virtual trapezoid like the Apogees were physical trapezoids, non-uniform from top to bottom.
        I think when people get bigger panel speakers, they want to turn up the SPL more and that may contribute to the desire for more watts. It's fun to have a big sound field everywhere. It doesn't sound strained with a whole lot of shouting coming from a little place. Another thought: given the same total SPL acoustic energy produced, a larger physical size must mean that the power emitted per unit area must be smaller. Maybe though the same power is being produced vs a small speaker, it (at least in direct sound) is being transmitted more to areas of the room where people's ears are not. Like 4 feet over my head. It would contribute to reverberant sound field (after attenuation in high frequencies which often determine human perceptual loudness) but less to direct? Maybe a secondary effect.
        
        I also wonder about A/B crossover distortion being more perceivable and if higher power AB amplifiers move that point to a different operating regime, I seem to notice people talk about this issue with AB amps but not tube or class D amps.
        
        Edits: 04/01/18
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 10:10:45 04/01/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by DrChaos on April 01, 2018 at 09:47:34
        
        Good observations.
        This is not nearly as straightforward a premise as the bigger speakers requiring more power for the same SPL. In most cases, in my opinion, the bigger Magnepan speakers require less power for a given SPL in the same environment.
        
        A person changes out a power amplifier with one rated at more watts and notes improved sounds, and thus concludes the result was from the extra power. In reality, there are other variables at work.
        
        My hypothetical (which actually really wasn't since I actually did it) was mentioned a few posts back.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - DrChaos 10:55:45 04/01/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Davey on April 01, 2018 at 10:10:45
        
        Did you mean this: "Stated another way. Suppose we play the 3.7 and note the midrange SPL levels. We then disconnect and hookup the 1.7 without changing our system volume control. We note the same midrange SPL levels in either case.
        The 3.7 was obviously making more level in the bass when it played. But did the amplifier have to supply more power to achieve that? Think about that a bit."
        
        Was the impedance higher for the 1.7's at lower frequency or not? If not, then I would think that with the larger panels more of the current was turned into acoustic energy instead of being dissipated in resistance.
        
        Given that I bet they are a few ohm resistive loads at DC (room heaters) I doubt the 1.7 has a high impedance at low frequencies.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - emailtim 12:31:10 03/31/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by Satie on March 31, 2018 at 11:22:58
        
        I would like to see Magnepan put their advice where their wallet is. I would like to see them demo their larger panels with a good 50 watt integrated amp and see how well they sell their larger panels. I have yet to see them or their dealers do that in 25 years.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Davey 16:47:15 03/31/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by emailtim on March 31, 2018 at 12:31:10
        
        They can play just fine with a 50 watt amplifier.
        It depends upon how loud you want to play them and what kind of room you have.
        
        Dave.
RE: Location, Location, Location - BigguyinATL 08:35:59 03/29/18 (0)
Oh and resistors help. I've always found the 3 series a bit brighter The Ribbon tweeter is a different "purer" device. also the crossovers are different. This means that angle for the 1.7's will not likely be the same as with the 3.7's. Pretend they are brand new loudspeakers as if you haven't ever owned planar magnetics... By design (and physics) the ribbons have a broader dispersion (left and right) than the Quasi ribbons, so what worked tweeters out might be better tweeters in, and you may need diffusion at the side wall reflection - or try more toe-in.

"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius
Speaker Cable Fix - RedM 07:33:14 03/29/18 (0)
Try some Cardas Quadlink speaker cables. Harshness will be gone!
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 04:13:40 03/29/18 (4)
I probably should have added if my memory servers me well everything sounded fine for the first two months I have had the speakers it's only the past few I've noticed harshness and it seems to be getting worse not sure if that is due to my awareness of it or if it is fact.
Joto
- Clean your contacts - Satie 12:33:31 03/29/18 (0)
  With any gradual deterioration in sound I first suspect contact oxidation. So I would suggest cleaning the speaker and cable contacts and the power amp section binding posts as well as all interconnect plugs and the jacks on the Halo Int.
  
  You can use any number of contact cleaners from deoxit onwards.
  
  That would be a cheap and easy thing to do and would rule this out as a factor. The possibility of your steadily baking your amp into oblivion is a rather negative outcome you want to rule out.
  
  Besides this, there is room to experiment with speaker placement to tame the tonal balance, but you didn't mention changing positions prior to the rough top end showing up so I am not expecting this to have been a cause but just a possible avenue to improve things.
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Audiophilander 12:11:08 03/29/18 (0)
  Ah, this may be an underpowered amp issue. If your Maggie's sounded great the first two months, they should sound even better now, not worse. Also, an amp under stress will degrade over time if pushed to extremes by a difficult load. Sound-wise, this could result in harshness, more constricted vocals, thinner treble and ...worse case scenario... eventual amp failure.
  I used my Quad 909 amp (250 watts into 4ohms) with my 3.7i Maggies for a month or so early on. Prior to that, the Quad had been driving a pair of Gallo Reference 3 speakers in a much smaller listening room with no stress. Maggie 3.7i speakers in a larger room were just too much for the amp to handle even at modest volume.
  In my situation, the sound was never harsh, but seemed congested, never fully opening up. Also, the amp would get very hot in prolonged listening sessions which concerned me. Power-wise, there just wasn't enough meat on the amp's bones to righteously play these babies. In fairly short order I bought a Magtech (which comes with a 30 day trial period and lifetime warranty) and never regretted the purchase.
  With more power in reserve, I can engage the Maggies full range without bi-amping, and dial in just the right low level crossover point on the Hsu Research powered sub to lock down the bottom octave without an active crossover, seamlessly blending the Hsu sub with the Maggies slow roll-off point at 40Hz.
  If you aren't currently using a powered subwoofer and your listening room will accommodate it, I'd strongly recommend looking into any sub that will integrate well with your 3.7i Maggies. Investment in a good powered sub may be the least expensive, non-invasive tweak you can make. From my perspective, bigger Maggies produce a much bigger sound and require more juice to make them sound their best. This also requires some attention to the low bass roll-off, which in turn makes a big difference in the perception of mid & high frequencies.
  One last point, if you go the more powerful amp route, there are other options besides the Sanders Magtech. I've read good things about Wyerd 4 Sound Class D monoblock amps that have even more power (1100+ wpc) than the Sanders amp into 4 Ohms (stable down to 2 Ohms) for significantly less cash. That said, without first-hand knowledge of the Wyerd4Sound amps nor having read any direct comparisons with Sanders' AB biased amps I can form no opinion on how these would interact with your speakers.
  Apologies if I've gotten too afield of your topic ...not to mention long-winded in respect to recommendations..., but hopefully this info will be useful.
  
  Edits: 03/29/18
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 08:01:36 03/29/18 (0)
  I think your problem is somewhere up stream. I would look at your amp, source and cables. Also as Josh mentioned I would play one speaker at a time to see if its happening on both channels.
  Cheers
  
  Edits: 03/29/18
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - josh358 06:25:44 03/29/18 (0)
  That's very strange. Did you try one speaker at a time? If it's in both speakers, that would tend to point to a problem upstream in the amp or source. If in one speaker, there could be a problem in the speaker itself, e.g., something that came loose and is buzzing or rubbing, so that would be a warranty repair.
  
  Again, the way to troubleshoot this is to substitute components systematically until you isolate it to a specific component.
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - George S. Roland 04:02:57 03/29/18 (0)
I hate to say this, and it may be irrelevant since we are talking about totally different components here, but I tried Parasound's A-21 power amp in my system and found it somewhat brittle and edgy in the high end. It was not satisfactory at all.

I purchased a used Pass Labs X-250.5 from Reno HiFi and am very satisfied with it. It is very clean-sounding and the high end is very smooth and musical.

I would urge yyou to try one of these amps if possible. Reno offers a 30-day trial period--plenty of time to assess the component without risk.

Good luck. I am very sensitive to rough-sounding high-ends. I feel for you.
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Audiophilander 01:18:43 03/29/18 (0)
More amp power might improve things. Also, utilizing the 1 Ohm resistors Magnepan provides can reduce or remove harshness in listening environments that might interact with less sensitivity to the 1.7i Maggies as they don't have ribbon tweeters. If you don't have a subwoofer, that can certainly make the midrange & highs sound thinner and contribute to upper range harshness. The fake ficus suggestion is also good for tempering edgy room acoustics that translate to harsher vocals (in lieu of more elaborate and/or expensive room treatments). Even adding Mye stands can provide major improvements. Of coarse, everyone's mileage varies, but I suspect several of the suggestions here will help make these beauties sing much more to your liking.

Note: I've owned 3.7i Maggies for several years now and vocals don't sound grainy in the slightest. That said, my system is now powered by a Sanders Magtech amp (900 wpc into 4 ohms) and I also employ a 15" sub (Hsu Research ULS-15).
had issues with sibilance when I had my MG1.6s but - Green Lantern 19:23:15 03/28/18 (0)
a Mills resistor and fake ficus tree behind the panels took care of that.
"Raspy" voices to me sounds like unusually high distortion somewhere down stream.
Or, you could take a bright flashlight and shine it close to the ribbon tweeter to see if any abnormalities (wrinkle?) might be going on back there.

Edits: 03/28/18
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - ostrey93 18:52:51 03/28/18 (1)
Maggies are great speakers but one of their problems is that they will let you know if you have a sub par component in your audio chain. I suggest checking your audio chain to try and isolate the problem. Try swapping pieces in and out one at a time. As well, the amp that you have may not be enough to properly drive the 3.7i's. If you can try borrowing a more powerful quality amp and see if that makes a difference.

Edits: 03/28/18
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - BDP24 19:02:04 03/28/18 (0)
  As Satie suggested, one way to decrease the power demands of the 3.7 is to remove the lower frequencies from the amp driving the speaker, sending them to a sub or two. Some people don't like or wants subs, but good one's are available, and can actually be a more efficient way to provide the 3.7 enough power. Bass frequencies use at least half the power that an amp produces, and getting them out of the speaker's amp can greatly improved the sound the amp/speaker combo produces.
  
  Edits: 03/28/18
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - Satie 17:17:31 03/28/18 (3)
The Parasound Halo Integrated is good enough for the 1.7i, but it is a bit weak for the 3.7i, so it operates at the upper end of its power capacity more of the time and would sound edgy. There are two solutions to the problem, either get a more powerful amp, or unload the bass to a subwoofer, much to the relief of both the amp and speaker. You can use the onboard bass management for that.

Besides that, all the issues of attenuator resistors and break in apply. The speaker will take a while to fill in on the bottom and the lower mids so will start out bright and mellow out with time.

But what you describe sounds more like an upstream problem and likely the amp section.
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - emailtim 22:13:27 03/28/18 (1)
  +1 on the amp. 240wpc is good for the 1 series, but marginal for the 3 series.
  
  From the specs, it doesn't appear that amp doubles down to 4 or 2 ohms which might be an indication it is be worked hard at higher levels.
  
  160 Watts x 2 @ 8 Ohms (RMS, both channels driven)
  240 Watts x 2 @ 4 Ohms (RMS, both channels driven)
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - LineSource 08:51:32 05/29/18 (0)
    That's actually a pretty respectable increase into 4 ohms. A lot of companies who's amps specs show they double power into 4 ohms are being conservative with their 8 ohm spec and generous with the 4 ohm spec.
    LineSource
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - BDP24 18:45:30 03/28/18 (0)
  While Maggies are bargain-priced, and make other speakers appear grossly-overpriced, the mitigating factor is that they require more "robust" amplification than do other speakers. Robustness costs. A great amp for the 3.7 is the Sanders Magtech, but it might not what be you consider bargain-priced. They get your money, one way or the other ;-)!
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - grantv 12:32:57 03/28/18 (0)
Break in as noted previously.
Also keep in mind the tweeters are better producers. Do you have young ears? :)
Another question, are you using the attenuator supplied by Magnepan? Some need it, some don't. Depends on your room, amp, acoustics, you...
RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 12:15:45 03/28/18 (11)
If all things are the same meaning all components and cables, I would look at your speaker placement. The 3.7i's are a different beast compared to the 1.7's. Also please consider the break in period. How many hours have you put on the 3.7i's?
Cheers

Edits: 03/28/18
- RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 13:51:53 03/28/18 (10)
  I must have at least 150 hours on the speakers. Speakers sre in a 12 x 15 room along 12 foot wall 17" from side wall tweeter toed in 31" from back wall and outside 42" from rear wall.
  Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - LineSource 08:43:35 05/29/18 (1)
    That's not a very large room. Do you have any sound treatment on the walls? If not, clap your hands in the middle of the room. If you can hear a short high frequency echo you need some diffusion, absorption or both. Bass traps in a room that size are almost mandatory.
    LineSource
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 18:19:57 05/29/18 (0)
      Think the room is okay no noticeable echo. Many shelves of records, carpet on floor, heavy curtain over double window
      
      Joto
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 19:54:18 03/28/18 (4)
    So I had something initially like this. The question is - if you go up to each speaker about 1' or less away - does the vocal sound harsh - if not - my bet is room position. If it still sounds harsh then could be something up the chain. If you muddle w room position does the vocal harshness change.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 14:01:38 04/03/18 (3)
      They sound harsh up close
      Joto
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - timm 14:28:10 04/03/18 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 03, 2018 at 14:01:38
        
        Grrrr. That stinks. I don't find that recording like that. In particular 'sun king' or 'you never give me your money'
        
        I know the 20 has both a mid and tweeter resistor you can use. Guess the 3.7 does as well. I guess the group can respond - but I would think having a resistor on the mid and not the tweet would accentuate the ribbon tweeter. Wouldn't think that would be desirable.
        
        RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 14:31:59 04/03/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by timm on April 03, 2018 at 14:28:10
        
        timm that is why I ask for a picture of the back of his Maggie's. I totally feel for tortjohn this is extremely frustrating.
        
        Cheers
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - bluesy41 14:06:57 04/03/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on April 03, 2018 at 14:01:38
        
        Can you post a picture of the front and back of your 3.7's and also of your room?
        
        Cheers
  - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - jubal62 14:07:19 03/28/18 (2)
    Try the 1 ohm resistors that came with the speakers. If that is to much attenuation them order some 1/2 ohm mills resistors. My situation was the 1 ohm resistors was to much attenuation so I went with the 1/2 ohm and they worked great. After a few years I pulled the 1/2 ohm resister out and the midrange is pretty much flat. No harshness.
    - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - tortjohn@yahoo.com 14:30:25 03/28/18 (1)
      I did place both resistors in the speakers but still experience the raspy vocals.
      
      Joto
      - RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i - josh358 16:20:36 03/28/18 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Harsh vocals in Magnepan 3.7i posted by tortjohn@yahoo.com on March 28, 2018 at 14:30:25
        
        Have you tried playing one at a time to see if it's in both speakers?
        
        If it's in both that suggest nothing is wrong with them. Since they shouldn't sound like that unless way overdriven you may be hearing a problem earlier in the chain, the ribbons are very revealing so if you have a DAC problem or similar you could hear that (is it present on analog sources?).

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