Planar Speaker Asylum

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RE: Why bi-amp Mags?

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In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by steve.sukiennik on July 21, 2017 at 08:16:57

I ran my MGIIIas for years with the XO-1 boxes and biamped with Bryston 3B amps. Definitely worked well.. I recently acquired a Bryston 10B electronic crossover and added it to the system. It makes a big difference and greatly improves bass performance.

I strongly recommend it.

Follow Ups:

RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - emailtim 14:24:32 07/24/17 (31)
So you bought one of those dirty Bryston electronic XO's ? =)
Did you get the STD or the SUB version ?

Edits: 07/24/17
- RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - jimf42 06:10:03 08/02/17 (29)
  I bought the std, not the sub. The 10B has just had a full Bryston factory overhaul. The improvement in performance from using the factory xovers was not subtle. It was immediately noticeable, even though I am still tweaking the settings bit to see if there is further improvement to be had.
  
  Since i already had two Bryston 3Bs, I did not see the need to get a multichannel amp...although that too was a good idea.
  - RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Satie 09:58:44 08/02/17 (28)
    That is something I was trying to convey to Steve, that the "dirty" components are the industry standard high value caps and inductors, particularly the 3rd order bass low pass or in his case the inductor for the 1st order low pass. The other thing being the complex load of the 3rd (or 4th) order XO affecting the bass amp or the single amp for the integrated speaker, which reduces its performance.
    - RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 17:33:58 08/02/17 (27)
      For a speaker like the Tympani-I or -4 (but not 4a), which requires just a 1st order, 6dB/octave high pass filter, all that's required, as Satie has said many times, is only a single capacitor, installed on the input jacks of the power amp feeding the m/t panels. This method avoids active electronics, as well as another inter-connect cable. For the 3rd order low pass leg (required by the Tympani-IV), a simple, inexpensive active x/o will be fine, like the old Dahlquist DQ-LP1. There is no reason it has to be a "dirty" one ;-).
      - RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 14:38:12 08/03/17 (26)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 02, 2017 at 17:33:58
        
        Speaking of Tympani's and crossovers, both the T-IV and T-IVa have a 3rd order low pass at 250HZ, but the high pass are different, the T-IV a 1st order at 500Hz, the T-IVa a 2nd order at 400Hz. If I want to use a 1st order high pass on the T-IVa, will reversing the polarity on the m/t panels (or flipping them front to back) put things back in phase, all else being the same?
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 22:34:24 08/03/17 (25)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 03, 2017 at 14:38:12
        
        BDP24 wrote:
        
        "Speaking of Tympani's and crossovers, both the T-IV and T-IVa have a 3rd order low pass at 250HZ, but the high pass are different, the T-IV a 1st order at 500Hz, the T-IVa a 2nd order at 400Hz. If I want to use a 1st order high pass on the T-IVa, will reversing the polarity on the m/t panels (or flipping them front to back) put things back in phase, all else being the same?"
        
        Yes, reversing the polarity is the way to go. Not sure but maybe you should try a different crossover frequency too?
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 23:59:42 08/03/17 (24)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 03, 2017 at 22:34:24
        
        Thanks Roger. No reason not to try the T-IV's 500Hz on the T-IVa, I suppose. I should look at the internal x/o parts values (if there are any) in both speakers to see if they are different. Beside the mid panel to ribbon tweeter x/o, of course. That will remain stock, I'm not tri-amping.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Satie 15:15:40 08/05/17 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 03, 2017 at 23:59:42
        
        The IVa has more extension than the IV mids but is no better on power handling at those lower frequencies, hence the 2nd order IVA vs 1st order IV and 400hz vs 500hz. If you want to go 1st order on the IVA you can use the 500hz high pass, or - if you trust yourself not to pound the speaker into the ground with loud music then you can probably take the high pass to 1st order 400hz. Of course, yo will have to use the matching low pass filter.
        
        The IVa with IV crossover is one option.
        
        TIVa with 1st order HP @400hz you will probably want to set your B4 one notch lower on the TIV crossover values rather than use the IVa values for the low pass.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 17:44:14 08/06/17 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Satie on August 05, 2017 at 15:15:40
        
        I am confused (nothing new there!) by some of your statements, Satie. Could I impose on you for clarification?
        - "you will have to use the matching low pass filter". What do you mean by matching?
        - "you will probably want to set your B4 one notch lower on the TIV crossover values rather than use the IVa values for the low pass". By one notch lower do you mean in frequency, as in 225Hz rather than 250? Or in slope, as in 2nd order rather than 3rd? The TIV and TIVa share the same 250Hz/3rd order low pass, so I'm not following you.
        As for using the TIV x/o boxes with the TIVa's, if I wasn't bi-amping the a's I might have to, as they came with only some of the case parts of their x/o's, and no guts. I didn't care, as I intended to bi-amp them anyway. But in any case it's academic, as I will be selling the TIV's, and their x/o boxes will go with them, of course.
        As always, thanks!---Eric.
        
        Edits: 08/06/17 08/06/17 08/06/17 08/06/17 08/06/17
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Satie 08:53:56 08/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 06, 2017 at 17:44:14
        
        Change in Freq rather than slope.
        
        I tried the TIV with 2nd order LP, 3rd (Butterworth) and 4th (LR) It is quite obvious that the 3rd LP and 1st HP is the better match for the speaker - both with Neo8 and stock. 2nd and 2nd symmetrical also works rather well.
        
        .I was talking about setting your B4 for similar points to the TIV rather than the stock equivalent settings of the IVa as an option.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 05:57:26 08/07/17 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 06, 2017 at 17:44:14
        
        The schematics http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/mikebarney/Tympani-4s_xo.pdf shows a second order (12dB/octave) low pass on the IV and a third order (18dB/octave) low pass on the IVa.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 06:43:36 08/07/17 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 07, 2017 at 05:57:26
        
        On the specs page of the owners manuals for both my T-IV and T-IVa, the low pass is specified as 3rd order Butterworth (18dB/octave) at 250Hz. The high pass for the m/t panels is 1st order (6dB) at 500Hz for the T-IV, and 2nd order (12dB) at 400Hz for the T-IVa. Are my manuals incorrect, or is the MUG schematic?
        
        Edits: 08/07/17 08/07/17 08/07/17 08/07/17 08/07/17
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 12:47:03 08/07/17 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 07, 2017 at 06:43:36
        
        There is only a coil (6mH) and a capacitor (50uF) in the low pass section of the Tympani IV. That is 12 dB/octave.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 13:44:11 08/07/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 07, 2017 at 12:47:03
        
        I just looked at the T-IV and T-IVa schematics on the Integracoustics/MUG site, and though both have 3rd order-18dB/octave listed for the low pass, the crossover values shown are different between the two. The T-IVa shows a pair of 2.05 mH coils, then a 200uF capacitor, then a 1.3 mH coil. The T-IV shows a pair of 3mH coils followed by a 50uF capacitor, exactly as Roger stated.
        Who drew up those schematics? I put in a call to Magnepan, and a recording said they currently have no customer service representative!
        
        Edits: 08/07/17
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 08:56:47 08/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 07, 2017 at 13:44:11
        
        I have some simulations using the values of the schematics. Could not post them as AudioAsylum was down. I will try tomorrow (saved it at my pc at work). I can tell they do look different!
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - jimf42 08:14:21 08/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 07, 2017 at 13:44:11
        
        I did not have much luck with Magnepan customer service when I had questions re the crossover frequencies... but there is also a thread on AudioCircles Planar Circle on the topic I found helpful.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 12:52:29 08/07/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 07, 2017 at 12:47:03
        
        Well, thanks for the correct info Roger. Am I alone in finding it bewildering that Magnepan would cite incorrect information about their own product in it's owners manual?!
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Satie 08:59:35 08/08/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 07, 2017 at 12:52:29
        
        I am not sure but if I remember correctly when I opened the XO boxes for my TIV over a decade ago it was 3rd order 2 inductors and a cap in between (at least appears to be)..
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 09:16:21 08/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Satie on August 08, 2017 at 08:59:35
        
        Magnepan seems to change things during production. The TIV schematic found in the "tweaks" section refers to a serial number.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 01:45:40 08/04/17 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 03, 2017 at 23:59:42
        
        The IV and IVa have different crossovers. You should look at the outboard crossovers not the internal crossover that only do the mid-to-tweeter.
        
        http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/mikebarney/Tympani-4s_xo.pdf
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 01:55:32 08/04/17 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 04, 2017 at 01:45:40
        
        Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me Roger. Only the mid-to-tweeter x/o is internal, the outboard boxes do ALL the bass to mid filtering, and that is textbook 3rd order low pass and 2nd order high pass. That simplifies things! Actually, I won't be using them at all, as I will be bi-amping with a First Watt B4 doing the filtering.
        
        Edits: 08/04/17 08/04/17
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 02:08:16 08/04/17 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 04, 2017 at 01:55:32
        
        Yes, that seems to be a good solution. I think the B4 is a bit too good for that task. With all its possibilities it deserves to be inserted even on the high pass filtering of the mids. You are not willing to sell the B4?
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 14:59:44 08/04/17 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 04, 2017 at 02:08:16
        
        Hmm, I don't know Roger. I bought it for filtering on all my bi-amped speakers---the ET LFT-8b's (1st order high and low at 175Hz), Quads (1st order at 75 or 100Hz), and the Tympanis (low pass 3rd @ 250Hz, hp 2nd @ 400Hz on the T-IVa's, 1st @ 500Hz on the T-IV's). That's one great thing about the B4---it's versatility. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th order, in 25Hz increments from 25Hz to 3200Hz! I'll ponder it.
        
        Edits: 08/04/17 08/04/17 08/04/17 08/06/17
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Satie 09:02:12 08/08/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 04, 2017 at 14:59:44
        
        Hang on to your B4 like a life raft.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 17:24:31 08/08/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Satie on August 08, 2017 at 09:02:12
        
        Satie, I read somewhere that the B4 was being discontinued, but it's still on their website. There's a Pass x/o on Audiogon right now, but at an asking price of almost $3k. I don't want one THAT much! Would be nice, though, as it runs balanced with XLR's.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Satie 10:46:28 08/09/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 08, 2017 at 17:24:31
        
        That is a real high end crossover with sufficient output to drive any amp and lots of gain if you need it.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 08:56:37 08/09/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 08, 2017 at 17:24:31
        
        Simulated electrical crossover curves using the schematics in the "tweaks" section for T-IV and T-IVa.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - BDP24 14:00:20 08/09/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by Roger Gustavsson on August 09, 2017 at 08:56:37
        
        Thanks for the curves Roger---Eric.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - Roger Gustavsson 08:44:38 08/09/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 08, 2017 at 17:24:31
        
        Simulated crossover electrical curves using the schematics in the "tweaks" section for T-IV and T-IVa.
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - watts 15:18:53 08/05/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by BDP24 on August 04, 2017 at 14:59:44
        
        I just caught this post and finished reading this thread and am really surprised how long it is! I commend all of you for your patience! I am still trying to figure out how dirty my system is...
        
        RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - jimf42 08:12:36 08/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Why bi-amp Mags? posted by watts on August 05, 2017 at 15:18:53
        
        time for a system cleaning...
- RE: Why bi-amp Mags? - JBen 23:07:21 07/24/17 (0)
  "So you bought one of those dirty Bryston electronic XO's ? =)"
  
  LOL!!!

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