Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves?

73.73.222.95

Hay all U desperates needing old Mags revoicecoiled &/or remylared w/o the deal blowing frt of nowadays. e-mail me at steve.sukiennik@gmail.com & I'll relay directions on an EEEEEZZZ'r method U can do yourselves. Remember it IS WORK.
Thx
Steve

Follow Ups:

It's probably because I am an old fart but - neolith 17:13:56 07/23/17 (52)
I wish you would post in proper English rather than using all the shortcuts for texting. One of the interesting points in "1984" was the use of Newspeak --the goal being that limiting the vocabulary also led to inability to express ideas. Short-cuts for texting are fine, but not for discussion of ideas and intelligent dialog.

I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
- RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 12:33:48 07/26/17 (2)
  Yes, U R rite, but I'm nu 2 this forum & literature is not my major. I hold a BSME & I think digitally (yes/no). I'm very envious of the literally elite but I can compose. Believe it or not composition is like an engineering of words. Xpress the most w/the least amount of words. Though I prefer analog sound mostly. FUNNY?
  Thx,
  Steve
  - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - neolith 14:21:33 07/26/17 (1)
    Yeah, I hear you. Actually one of the reasons I majored in Chemistry was so I wouldn't have to write papers. Being retired I am in no rush and so I spend time carefully reading my posts for grammatical and spelling errors. Also my texting is very limited usually consisting of just one letter - K - in response to my wife. Sort of a digital, "of course, I am listening to you dear".
    
    I married the perfect woman. The downside is everything that goes wrong is my fault.
    
    Edits: 07/26/17
    - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 17:46:53 07/26/17 (0)
      Hay again neolith,
      I had a large prob learning 2 write since grade school. Not one teacher could explain or teach us that it's EZ 2 conquer.
      #1) opening sentence shood state what & Y U R writing this essay
      #2) write each & every thought down on individual cards
      #3) arrange the cards 2 eliminate redundancies.
      #4) now arrange in ascending order
      #5) viola, the essay will flow onto the paper almost effortlessly
      
      How come it took so long 2 do something everybody shood've learned in grade school?
      Thx,
      Steve
- Newspeak and clarity - JBen 23:17:25 07/24/17 (0)
  Hey Neo, that's a really really good point. We sure have seen worse than this in the forum along the years. It never helped anyone and we sometimes lost good resources because of the arguments that ensued. It does get in the way of clarity in our communications. Some of what I see in this thread may have been avoided by resorting to a fuller use of the language.
  
  Besides, many potentially useful bits of information and skills can be lost. Who would be able to search the archives fruitfully if we turn this into Babel! U know what I mean :)
  
  Oh, and old farts smell fine when the music is good, keep the good tunes flowing my friend.
- RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - paul3 22:06:14 07/23/17 (1)
  Texting short cuts either find me hitting the delete button or reaching for the ibuprofen.
  
  Edits: 07/23/17 07/23/17
  - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 12:37:49 07/26/17 (0)
    Thanx, & I get it. I still can't type more than 10 words/min. That's part of my prob.
    Steve
- RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - ghost4man 21:58:29 07/23/17 (45)
  Steve,
  
  Appreciate your offer mate.
  
  Ozzie.
  - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 12:40:39 07/26/17 (0)
    Hay again,
    C, I'm not so bad. Both the honest & the dishonest wanna deal w/an honest person.
    Thx,
    Steve
  - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Roger Gustavsson 22:25:07 07/23/17 (43)
    I know how to do it too. However, you will have problems to fully replicate the original speakers. The Mylar Magnepan uses is said to be out of production and they will not sell you any. It is also difficult to replicate the correct tension of the Mylar, even more so if you use a different type of polyester film. The film material will change its resonant behaviour with time and we want to have that final sound after several hundred of hours of use. As the Magneplanar type of driver has no provision to adjust the tension, you can only guess what tension you should use. This is very important for the quality of bass, especially for the large Tympanis. Too much tension - no low bass. Too little tension - diaphragm will hit the magnets.
    - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 12:53:08 07/26/17 (6)
      Hay again,
      Absolutely, but my tymps have tuning screws like a drum or better a guitar. The mylar I get from McMaster Carr seems almost identical & blows away worn out flabby fagged tymp mylar. ALSO TIII's always have 2 B totally gutted cause of the archaic wooden tuning bars glued across the whole diaphragm in 2 places I recall. I always sensed they had BAD bass & they did. Here again engineering makes mistakes but always goes forward. Mistakes & failures R the rd 2 success. Cheating IS learning 2.
      Thx,
      Steve
      - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Roger Gustavsson 03:55:06 07/27/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by steve.sukiennik on July 26, 2017 at 12:53:08
        
        @ Steve:
        There are at least three different versions of the Tympani Bass Speakers (a part of the Tympani III or IIIA).
        The ones with the wooden crossbars are early production.
        
        The middle production had no wooden crossbars across the Mylar.
        
        The late production had the diaphragm fastened (without butons) in two spots on the mid bass and the low bass driver was single piece of Mylar.
        
        Edits: 07/27/17
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 12:13:06 07/27/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Roger Gustavsson on July 27, 2017 at 03:55:06
        
        Hay Gus,
        U'd probably know about new voice coil wire. I used 2 think that the inner 6 double coils were there 2 produce more slam in the middle but after redoing an old MG2, it has doubled coil wire across the entire bass diaphragm section. Supposedly it mite have no particular extra effect. It's only to achieve the correct resistance. Which is it?
        Thx,
        Also there's a site where this "dude" has completely recoiled tymps w/foil tape & he claims it sounds AOK but the resistance is no longer the same. BUT IT WORKS!!
        I really wanna do foil everywhere cause even though it doesn't produce the perfectly circular electromagnetic field that round wire does, it supposedly sticks better, no end jigs needed, dissipates damaging heat better & lasts way longer.
        What's U'r take?
        What shood I use & where shood I get it. Don't say thru Magnepan please
        Steve
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 14:15:21 07/27/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by steve.sukiennik on July 27, 2017 at 12:13:06
        
        Several guys have rebuild drivers with foil. You want to choose the foil that has the same resistivity as the wire to maintain impedance, unless you're biamping in which case you can do whatever you want.
        
        Foil does sound better in the mids and the highs, however, if you redid your Tympani woofer with foil you would very likely reduce the compliance which would shift the resonant frequencies. One thing you could do is turn the 1D into a 2.5 way -- take part of the woofer nearest the tweeter (this is the low bass section) and make a midrange section a few inches wide. Short run so you need high resistivity (thin) foil to maintain impedance. Leave the rest of the wire in place. Now make a 1.5-way XO so that both woofer panels are driven up to about 250 Hz, then from 250 Hz to 1kHz, you're driving only the midrange section. You now have better dispersion and imaging, as well as the advantages of a foil midrange, while the woofing behavior remains much the same as before.
        
        Better yet, you could add a midrange on the M-T panel next to the tweeter, less IM and the woofers remain untouched.
        
        I have no idea where to get the foil but if you look at some ribbon speaker construction projects on DIY audio they probably mention sources.
        
        RE: Here you go - steve.sukiennik 14:57:53 07/27/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 27, 2017 at 14:15:21
        
        Hay josh358,
        Thank U, Thank U, Thank U,
        It's most likely gonna B foil 4 me. I'll look into Ur GREAT suggestions & get it rite the 1st time. Don't wanna do it AGAIN.
        Foil's a 4 sure thing on my rebuilt T-1D tweeter panels, but maybe I shood stay w/aluminum wire on the 4 bass panels. Although better, I really don't wanna add or mix drivers rite now. And 4 all U dispersion freaks which I used 2 B 1: Now I totally love beaming. Beaming is intensity even though it sounds worse wen outside of the sweet spot. If beaming is bad then Y wen I do any massive improvements along comes more & more intense beaming?
        Thx,
        Steve
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 06:11:54 07/29/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by steve.sukiennik on July 27, 2017 at 14:57:53
        
        Well, beaming is controversial. There are people who prefer it, like Roger Sanders, but it also means that the power response of the speaker changes which can interfere with imaging and naturalness. I think part of it depends on room acoustics -- if you have early reflections, you're probably better off with beaming -- or if you want an analytical, headphone-like sound.
        
        I do know that my IVA's, which don't beam, sound more natural than my 1-D's, which did, but then I had better high frequency hearing when I had my 1-D's! And of course other things are changing as well.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 09:40:25 07/27/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Roger Gustavsson on July 27, 2017 at 03:55:06
        
        Hay Roger,
        THANKS, U R into it, really,
        As I said, my removable diaphragm skins R tunable or shood I say tightenable AFTER final installation. That shood make up 4 mylar variance. Also the mylar I use acts identical in tension testing, physical feel & it's the exact 1/2 thousandth" thick. And did U ever touch removed mylar from a set of tymps: feels like ragged nasty dried up celluphane. Though maybe not absolutely flawlessly perfect, new McMaster Carr mylar is 92% or maybe 100% more like the orig'l then what all old tymps R now & they still work wen worn out & flabby. Y woodn't 92% of orig'l B better than trashed cigarette wrapping?
        What's U'r take?
        Steve
    - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - BDP24 02:40:16 07/24/17 (35)
      Good info and advice Roger, but you're wasting your breathe. This Steve guy doesn't seriously consider what anyone here says, clinging to his incorrect assumptions and false beliefs.
      - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 13:04:49 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by BDP24 on July 24, 2017 at 02:40:16
        
        Hay again,
        Thanks but I must've hit the wrong buttons. I have no intention on believing that I am GOD though I sound that way many times. Maybe I shood've worded things better & U wood C I'm trying 2 get the absolute BEST 4 the absolute LEAST. I once paid $2500 on a demo Mark Levinson ML10-A pre because it sounded 93% as good as the $6600 ML reference. Not bad but it was 2-1/2 times my $1000 limit/pc. Took it home & loved that "DARK" sound. WOW. I'm sure 2day there's far better but I C 'em on Ebay at $1200. Not a great investment but better than most aging electronics.
        Thx,
        Steve
      - RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 10:44:50 07/24/17 (33)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by BDP24 on July 24, 2017 at 02:40:16
        
        The guy was given some incomplete info from someone with a very particular philosophy and it will take him a while to figure out how to integrate what we all found out over years of experimentation. So please don't berate him for taking time to acclimate.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 13:08:51 07/26/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 10:44:50
        
        Hay Satie,
        Thanks, but please don't tell me a Belles pre blows an ML pre away. I'm dying 2 hear some of the nu wave of clean electronics though. It seems that ever since CD's came out, nobody is really into audio like B4. Is the golden age gone?
        Steve
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 23:33:21 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by steve.sukiennik on July 26, 2017 at 13:08:51
        
        I don't know if Belles preamps have improved that much but that tiny boutique is producing well regarded stuff at more reasonable prices than ML did.
        
        I don't expect that there is much improvement to be had over the ML 10 and its contemporary Classe DR5. If you want better from them give them new schottkys and lower ESR and bigger PS caps and put in foil caps where he used metalized polyprop. There are also better connectors and pots. But the basic circuit is fabulous.
        
        The biamp issue is that there are many ways to do it and not all of them make for a more complex signal path with more "dirt". The bass usually remains ok or benefits from an electronic crossover, the top end requires more care and can be done with as few parts as the speaker level crossover if the preamp has enough output and the crossover is simple enough.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - BDP24 11:23:07 07/24/17 (30)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 10:44:50
        
        I'm not as nice as you, Satie ;-). I don't hold mere ignorance against anyone, myself included---I possess a lot it! But this Steve fella seems to be completely ignoring what ya'll are telling him, not just putting no effort into understanding what you are saying and why you are saying it, but actually not interested in improving his understanding of the issues involved in bi-amping and both active and passive speaker-level and line-level x-overs, or thinking he perhaps needs to. I wouldn't call him a know-it-all, but he doesn't appear to be open to even considering new or alternative information, instead preferring to merely parrot what he was told long ago. He just keeps repeating his adopted beliefs, not even acknowledging the information and ideas offered as a rebuttal to those mistaken beliefs. Weird!
        
        Edits: 07/24/17
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 13:12:32 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by BDP24 on July 24, 2017 at 11:23:07
        
        Hay again & thanks,
        It's not that I'm old school & not open 2 nu ideas. It's just I haven't heard much better & I can't afford 2 buy & install dull stuff. Make sense?
        Thx,
        Steve
        
        RE: I'm not as nice as you, Satie... - JBen 00:07:58 07/25/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by BDP24 on July 24, 2017 at 11:23:07
        
        LOL, I've said it to myself and others more times than I can remember. I admire Satie's patience, understanding and willingness to share what he knows. AND, I also envy him for his thick skin, big time. Every now and then his positive attitude has forced me to remember that I still have some growing up to do.
        Anyway, it feels wrong to burn someone at the stake just as he offers something. We are too quick to focus on the negatives first, and "we" has included me often enough. Time may tell but we have nothing to lose. Though I may never really need them, I sent for the details minutes ago. There is always something to be learned, me thinks.
        For all I know, Steve may have the perfect way NOT to do this...or more likely, a seemingly minor trick that may make someone's day. It may be for U, me, or someone else. I'd be just as grateful in any of those cases.
        
        Edits: 07/25/17
        
        RE: I'm not as nice as you, Satie... - steve.sukiennik 13:17:54 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I'm not as nice as you, Satie... posted by JBen on July 25, 2017 at 00:07:58
        
        Hay again,
        I'm not always rite & I'm not a billionaire so I don't have the time or money 2 buy all of 'em then rtn the doggz. I'm hoping 2 improve in solid steps, not mistakes like KEF, Klipsch or McINT.
        Thx,
        Steve
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Green Lantern 19:02:42 07/24/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by BDP24 on July 24, 2017 at 11:23:07
        
        I'm not sure if he's a troll or not but there's nothing worse than someone who ask for advice/help; receives it from a hand full of folks only to respond by saying to a single individual: "finally someone who know's what he's talking about (or similar)".
        
        THAT pisses me off.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 13:22:17 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Green Lantern on July 24, 2017 at 19:02:42
        
        Hay again & thanks,
        Coloration is super EZ 2 hear on headphones but I hate headphones.
        I'm not GOD but heard many a dull stuff like AR SS pre, what a dogg. Doesn't mean all AR is doggy. I'm very very open.
        Steve
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 11:53:54 07/24/17 (24)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by BDP24 on July 24, 2017 at 11:23:07
        
        It is a common behavior and the more complex and broadly believed a mistake is, the harder it is to let go of it.
        
        The worst ones are in fields where professionals think they have knowledge that later turns out to be groundless or even outright wrong, or to have been based on fake science performed by someone's marketing department.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 13:26:25 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 11:53:54
        
        Hay again,
        R U saying old ML stuff is doggy? Maybe it is nowadays. BTW what speaker wire do U use. What brands do U recommend. Hope they don't have dirty tone controls. Come on, I'm ready. Just joking.
        Steve
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Davey 20:38:21 07/24/17 (20)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 11:53:54
        
        Boy, those are cynical and naive comments.
        
        I will certainly stipulate marketing departments can skew product images and fool some of the public, but (generally) professionals DO have the knowledge and are (generally) grounded with decent education and years of real-world experiences. If not, they're (generally) not professionals in their trade much longer. :)
        
        The audio industry is not special in this aspect. Free-thinking, creative types are no more/less full of shit than any other profession.
        
        It's time to start considering the validity of your comments much more on this forum
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - steve.sukiennik 13:29:22 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Davey on July 24, 2017 at 20:38:21
        
        Hay Davey,
        Makes full sense but it doesn't get 2 the bottom of what the BEST 4 the LEAST.
        Thx,
        Steve
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 21:22:53 07/24/17 (18)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Davey on July 24, 2017 at 20:38:21
        
        every profession suffers from fashion, group think, and sell outs. the most common problem is mythology. in some areas like medicine it can take an entire generation to clear out mistakes. the more complex the field so it relies more on other fields to base its principles on. when new discoveries are made, old ones refined, or outright errors corrected, the complex expertise relying on these foundations may retain misconceptions for decades after they were discovered and corrected.
        
        the larger the amount of money involved the larger the temptation to create fake science and continue teaching documented errors to the next generation of professionals.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Davey 21:48:19 07/24/17 (17)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 21:22:53
        
        "the larger the amount of money involved the larger the temptation to create fake science and continue teaching documented errors to the next generation of professionals."
        
        A fairly good synopsis of the "high-end" audio industry. :)
        
        It's important to understand that some things in basic electronics are....basic. They will not be refined, or errors corrected, or similar. Ohm's Law is not going to found in error by some creative genius in the "high-end" audio industry. :)
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - josh358 05:54:12 07/25/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Davey on July 24, 2017 at 21:48:19
        
        "Ohm's Law is not going to found in error by some creative genius in the 'high-end' audio industry."
        
        LOL, you haven't spoken to any designers of exotic cables lately, have you.
        
        Ah, well, off to put another batch of CD's in the freezer.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Davey 06:30:15 07/25/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by josh358 on July 25, 2017 at 05:54:12
        
        Well, as a matter of fact I have. :)
        I recently told one of the "high-end" cable manufacturers at the AudioCircle jerk forum that his $8000.00 speaker cables were ridiculously overpriced.
        Considering the business model on that forum and the whiney mentality of some of the "industry members", you can guess what happened. :)
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 10:20:53 07/25/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Davey on July 25, 2017 at 06:30:15
        
        Heh -- I'm definitely in the wrong business. Want to be the first customer for my alluvial mouse whisker enhanced endrohence superconducting etheric quantum cables? Only $7000 -- see, I'm undercutting the other guy, and rumor has it that he's cutting corners by using whiskers from run-of-the-mill savanna mice on the sly.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 22:29:19 07/24/17 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Davey on July 24, 2017 at 21:48:19
        
        high end audio has its share of issues, but where the big money is is in consumer and pro audio electronics not in the high end. it is in the large companies selling convenience audio and marketing based features rather than sound quality as a guide. the costs are held down to increase margins and the products are often just a tad better than trash, so long as they work. on the other hand you can obtain some mighty good performance from some low cost products, but those are not that common.
        
        the disregard for sound quality is ingrained with attempts to cut costs using cheap parts and components backed up by blind tests with listener test pools with no interest in sound quality or experience of live acoustic music with which to judge fidelity.
        
        high end is a tiny business and the top flagships win interest in the rest of the range and prop up margins on the lower end of the line. but that creates a trap for the companies where they need to retain the audio bling appearance on lower priced goods. often leaves little for the parts inside.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Norman M 09:04:18 07/25/17 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 22:29:19
        
        "high end is a tiny business and the top flagships win interest in the rest of the range and prop up margins on the lower end of the line. but that creates a trap for the companies where they need to retain the audio bling appearance on lower priced goods. often leaves little for the parts inside."
        
        Isn't it common here for inmates to berate Magnepan for using mediocre parts in both their lower priced entry level and flagship speakers? It appears common to find discussions describing their replacement. It might follow then that one needn't travel far to see a good example.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 09:45:13 07/25/17 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Norman M on July 25, 2017 at 09:04:18
        
        the point is made with the magnepan and vandersteen exception though vandersteen did go the royal barge way with its top end speakers over the last decade. but both did go for the value market and provide good value in part by not marking up their top end product and not gold plating it nor using exotic parts. that does leave us room to improve performance but the stock speakers compete successfully with speakers priced 10 fold higher.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Norman M 11:53:59 07/25/17 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by 13473 on July 25, 2017 at 09:45:13
        
        I think the point is whether or not a manufacturer willingly cuts corners in the quality of their product (e.g., Magnepan's speaker terminals, set-screws and jacks or cross-overs parts) to maximize profits, and perhaps pay for 'bling'? IIRC Magnepan was here accused of offering bling in their use of wood-like side-rails in some Tympanis, when neither required nor used in other Tympanis. In fact didn't that poster say he preferred their look without side-rails?
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 13:49:31 07/25/17 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Norman M on July 25, 2017 at 11:53:59
        
        The IVA had different bracing for the frame and were downright flimsy without the wood siderails. They were not at all bling just a necessary structural element that was incorporated into the aesthetic.
        When Magnepan introduced their connection scheme it was a major upgrade over the terminal strip and screw terminals. But those were pretty much standard for the day along with nickel plated RCA connectors that we know today are a no no.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Norman M 17:28:14 07/25/17 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 25, 2017 at 13:49:31
        
        Satie, thank you for informing me of that information, which is very much appreciated.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Roger Gustavsson 22:29:10 07/25/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Norman M on July 25, 2017 at 17:28:14
        
        Satie wrote: "The IVA had different bracing for the frame and were downright flimsy without the wood siderails."
        
        Can you give details in which way it was changed? I have not seen a great difference fron the IV. Same kind of structure or have I missed something? I like the look of the Tympanis without the side rails. Mine are solid oak and do not help very much in order to reduce the "flimsiness" of the baffles.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 22:48:42 07/25/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Roger Gustavsson on July 25, 2017 at 22:29:10
        
        My 1982 TIV have hardwood frames on the bass panels, not MDF. They are stiff and solid. The MDF mid/tweeter panel is stiffened with sheetmetal.
        
        For the T IVa you can compare notes with Josh and other T IVa owners. IIRC he noted that the panels are flimsy without the oak side panels.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Roger Gustavsson 03:07:19 07/26/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 25, 2017 at 22:48:42
        
        My Tympani IIIA (1975) had hardwood around the edges. The drivers were glued and riveted on 1/8" board.
        
        My Tympani IVa (1985) have 3/4" MDF but where the drivers are mounted it is rather thick, more than 1/8", about the half of the 3/4".
        My 3.6 (2003) are similar to the IVa.
        All three are stiffened with strips of sheetmetal, both front and rear along the height of the baffles.
        
        Edits: 07/29/17
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 08:29:30 07/26/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Roger Gustavsson on July 26, 2017 at 03:07:19
        
        I didn't remember how the steel bracing was mounted on the bass panels, but now that you describe it it seems right and familliar. I only had the bass panels partially uncovered to fix cracks in the wood frame corners from shipping with epoxy and using carpenter's clamps. Then I sowed it up. When they had problems a few years later I sent them to Magnepan for the repair. That was 15 years ago.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Roger Gustavsson 11:09:45 07/26/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 26, 2017 at 08:29:30
        
        The steel crossbars? The number of crossbars and its positions seems identical on IV and IVa. A picture of my friends IV looks very much like my IVa, even look like MDF. Very old Tympanis (like the IIIA) have them secured by glue and screws. My IVa have hem just glued and they can come loose after some 10th of years. The 3.6 also have them glued.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Satie 23:43:49 07/26/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Roger Gustavsson on July 26, 2017 at 11:09:45
        
        Yes, I think the crossbars are what I saw at the top where I was working. I don't remember screws or the lack of them.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Davey 06:34:31 07/25/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 22:29:19
        
        Satie, you're just rationalizing now. That explanation might work outside the weird venue of an audio forum like this, but not here.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - josh358 06:02:31 07/25/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 22:29:19
        
        A high-end amplifier manufacturer told me once that he tried making a budget amplifier by using a functional faceplate rather than the expensive milled aluminum thing and that they didn't sell.
        
        I suppose that those of us with speakers bigger than we are shouldn't talk. :-)
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - Davey 13:12:05 07/24/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 11:53:54
        
        You fellas have already wasted way more time on this guy than you should have. He's a troll.
        I've received numerous (unsolicited) emails that demonstrate he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.....and that he can't even put three words together to form a coherent thought/sentence.
        
        Giving a newbie poster the benefit of the doubt is fine, but this situation is something else completely.
        
        Cheers,
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but - BDP24 15:41:22 07/24/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: It's probably because I am an old fart but posted by Davey on July 24, 2017 at 13:12:05
        
        My sentiments exactly.
why not post it here? nt - Green Lantern 16:06:13 07/23/17 (0)
RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - JBen 12:12:56 07/23/17 (7)
Well, I just got home from a health walk, all morning long. My wife warmed up the audio gear for me while I was away. So here I am, listening to these ancient Maggies do their sweet tricks while checking messages... and your offer pops up.

They are holding together rather well but that's no going be forever. Me thinks I'll play smart and take you up on that offer for when the time comes. I'll drop you a note later. Thanks!
- RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - steve.sukiennik 00:00:13 07/26/17 (6)
  Hay JBen,
  When frt 2 MN & back is less than $75, I wholeheartedly recommend let them do it.
  Nowadays [(frt 2 MN is usually $100+) + (cost of repair) + (return frt usually $100+)] vs $1200+ for new units causes old units 2 B worth almost nothing. That's Y U C MG1's, MG2's, Tymp's etc 4 super low prices. What a waste!!! This forced me 2 learn how 2 do it myself.
  
  90% of the time the mylar diaphragms R in good enuff condition 2 only need an acetone cleaning, tears taped & then voice coil replacement. After 30+ years of usage the voice coils crack & this side gets scummy possibly from the electric operational charges & scuzzy smoke. However the inner side usually stays clean enuff 2 use 4 another 30+ years.
  
  I devised a simple method of using 1/2" long cut plastic hose (5/16" & 3/16") dia's w/fitted flathead screws, washers & nuts thru predrilled & counter sunk holes. Believe it or not it works best thru 1/8" masonite board & it's thin enuff 2 B easily removed. Oak grains split & dowel pins required a thicker stock which is harder 2 remove at completion. Of course a steel type would B best but few have access 2 all the nec machy. U don't need 2 make a mandolin wire holding fixture. Just use the panels themselves & the attached fitted masonite ends. This info should B EZ enuff 2 get anyone started.
  
  Wen the mylar is shot or somebody wrongly thinks it's shot & removes it, now comes DIY Remylaring. Think wen U inflate a balloon: all section move away from a beginning edge. Plus wen U stretch the narrow sides U get pleating. Maybe this is where the Heil tweeter got its start.
  
  Make 2 (3/8T x 7/8W x 60L)" pine moulding strips & 2 at the narrow side as U devise. Leave all corners unmiterred which allows the mylar more freedom to stretch. Obtain a (15-1/4W x 3/4T)" x 6 foot long white laminate shelf board available almost everywhere. 1/2" thick mite work OK but could B 2 flimsy. Mount one of the long strips along a long shelf edge equi distant from the ends, clamp it & drill holes 3" apart at the dia that firmly accepts 1" or 3/4" long flathead drywall screws & litely countersink. U want screws 2 B taunt enuff but never lose. This is U'r reference starting edge. Mylar comes in 27W" rolls so cut it in half at 13-1/2W". Remove the initial moulding, roll the new mylar out flat & tauntly sctotch tape around w/(1-2)" scotch tape pieces. MAKE SURE THERE R NO RIPPLES OF ANY KIND ELSE THEY WILL PROPAGATE CONTINUOUSLY. Remount the reference moulding & screw firmly. Measure width & length that U need & mark edges w/sharpie black marker for aligning the other 3 trim mouldings. Place & mount 3 corresponding very sq (1 x 1)" wood trims at a distance where several C-clamps can grab nicely approx. (3-4)" apart. Oil base paint all 4 mouldings & let dry 3 days. Now place qty (2) 1/2" strips of double coated window visqueen tape along side eachother as U mount 2 the bottom of the 3 outer trim mouldings. Trim excess tape. With care & maybe some aligning screws, press in place atop the new mylar.. Wait say 10mins then evenly pull the 3 sides via C-clamps & clamp down w/3/8" BX single sided clamps. Release C-clamps. Method 1: Remove driver from cab, chisel off 4 top (1-1/2)"W steel strips around driver, clean & sand. Clean driver then drop onto mylar. Trim & remove. Method 2: make a (3/8 x 1-1/2W)" size moulding trim picture frame w/ mitered corners, small L brackets, 3 day oil base paint, install one temporary brace across middle, then drop onto mylar. Trim & remove. This 2nd method creates a removable diaphragm 4 the future. Squeeze all air bubbles under picture frame & mount one long edge atop metal edge. Drill & screw this 1st edge w/proper screws, nuts & washers. U mite have 2 recess nuts. Now C-clamp the remaining long side until mylar gets fully taunt, clamp down, then drill & install same style screws, nuts & washers. Top & bottom shood B OK. Viola: "tuneable & removable diaphram"
  - RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - JBen 16:30:06 07/27/17 (5)
    Many thanks, Steve! I am saving it all locally for keeps and later reading. It will take time to fully absorb parts of it. I must say, Neolith's advice comes into play; one does have a harder time wading through it. But, if it is good, it is good... (nothing that a Tylenol or two...or is it Aleeve...no no, try Advil...no no, drop the damn statin, JBen, it's age you fool! :)
    - RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - steve.sukiennik 17:29:12 07/27/17 (4)
      Hay again JBen,
      Note that there R some additional infos that I added & some somewhat twisted areas where I speak of rusty ends. I'll try 2 have (1) brand new final (DIY Remylar) in a few days or weeks. It'll B the same as all 3 of 'em but in (1) concise story/directions/manual if U will.
      Thx,
      Steve
      I mite B a lil' crazy but I'm not nutz. Just nutz about tympanis.
      - RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - JBen 18:50:34 07/27/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? posted by steve.sukiennik on July 27, 2017 at 17:29:12
        
        Steve, yes, thanks; I saw those and grabbed them all to the hard drive. The Asylum has a nasty habit of going off the air just as I have a little time to catch up on posts. I'll check later for the new edition.
        
        RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - Roger Gustavsson 23:46:21 07/27/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? posted by JBen on July 27, 2017 at 18:50:34
        
        Josh wrote:
        "...if you redid your Tympani woofer with foil you would very likely reduce the compliance which would shift the resonant frequencies."
        At least, this will happen at higher SPL. There foil will restrict the possible deflection of the Mylar. Tympani basses have thin aluminium wires, covering a tiny part of the Mylar. If you apply flat conductors, more of that area will be covered , the areas covered by aluminium will not be very elastic. With foil 30% of the Mylar will be covered, with round wire just a few %.
        I have had conversation with the guys that used foil conductors on the Tympani I-D basses. Same foil as used by Magnepan on basses of 1.7 and 3.7. It is is .005" x .075".
        Original round wire:
        AWG 25 (0.162 mm2), length of wire 46 m, mass of wire 20 gram, impedance 8 Ohm
        Flat wire (foil conductor):
        0.242 mm2, length 38 m (no double runs), mass of foil 25 gram, impedance 4 Ohm
        I think that will change some of the properties of the Tympani bass. Not very much by the change of moving mass, more so from the reduction of the elasticity of the diaphragm and the change of the wiring pattern (no double runs in the middle of the Mylar). The change of impedance will also have some impact. It will be 2 or 8 Ohm, depending on parallel or series connection is used. With 2 Ohm SPL increases, with 8 it decreases.
        Steve wrote:
        "As I said, my removable diaphragm skins R tunable or shood I say tightenable AFTER final installation. That shood make up 4 mylar variance. Also the mylar I use acts identical in tension testing, physical feel & it's the exact 1/2 thousandth" thick."
        
        I do not get it... How can you tighten the Mylar of the final installation? You must have some kind of temporary installation. I am also a bit worried what happen after a few hundred hours of playing. I would like to a have a final fundamental resonance similar to what my speakers originally had.
        The very old Tympani Bass Speaker above is in the need of new Mylar. It is now slapping against the magnets. Seems to have had a repair. Two of the four drivers are in a very good condition after 42-43 years of use. Sure, it would be better to have the faulty ones re-done like my own (the ones at the bottom).
        
        Edits: 07/28/17
        
        RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - steve.sukiennik 14:47:24 07/31/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? posted by Roger Gustavsson on July 27, 2017 at 23:46:21
        
        Hay Roger,
        Then it does makes much more sense to just revoice coil the bass panels with the same original 25 gauge insulated aluminum wire. How about the T-1D tweeters, wire or foil?
        What do you think?
        And who was the guy that had a list of several mylar suppliers? I need that list.
        Thx,
        Steve
        
        RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? - Roger Gustavsson 23:54:57 07/31/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Who needs details 2 refurbish Mags by themselves? posted by steve.sukiennik on July 31, 2017 at 14:47:24
        
        The I-D tweeters. Magnepan has no wire for them as far as I know. They do not have any suitable foil conductors for them either. You can use the foil as used on the 20-series midrange but it will change the tweeters from I-D to I-C (or IIIA), from about 4.7 Ohm to 7.6 Ohm. Many years ago, I cut foil for my tweeters, not that easy... The I-D tweeters can use thinner Mylar. Still, the perforated sheet metal is very much in the way of the highest frequences. There is only about 11% of open area in front of the diaphragm.

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