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In Reply to: RE: Magnepan color recommendation posted by 4everyoung on July 05, 2017 at 19:50:32
Mmmm, Magnepan may not like me saying this. But I fear that those 802's are going to feel rather happy, and even stick their tongue at the Maggies if you don't choose "wisely", and I don't mean the color.
Please check with Josh. He had a fireplace issue in one room. I even modeled it for solutions at my home and it was not easy, though it could work. The problem can be that hole, as "seen" by the back of planars. Your situation may vary depending on other elements in that room.
One though is that you could try the 1.7i trial offer, or borrow a pair of large Maggies. This would be just to see if they work well enough there. If so, then the 3.7i can work fine.
Follow Ups:
Are you saying my room is not Magnepam worthy? I spoke with Wendell a number of times and he was not concerned with my room or the fireplace.
Wendell was more concerned about driving the Magnepans with a Class D amp. He did not feel Class D would be a good match at all. So I have also been considering other amplification as well.
BTW, that speaker is a B&W 800D that I had here for review a number of years ago. I wish i did own them.
An inmate Ahendler (sp?) Loved his Gilmore Raptors with his 3.6's. He now is running David Berning amps.
I had the Bel Canto EVO 200.6 for 12 years, that being the tripath design and not full blown class D. They ran 1.6's and my 3.7's. They were great amps for the 1.6's, not quite the control on the 3.7's.
I went to Audio Perfection in MPLS, twice and heard the Bel Canto M600's with the 3.7i's, in an all Bel Canto rig and using the their DAC as a Pre...
Very 3 dimensional, imaging is spot on, huge sound stage, tone, textures, everything was there.
Now, I had my 3.7's upgraded to the 3.7i's...(if you search my Moniker, I wrote volumes on this. Before I did the upgrade, I bought the Magtech.)
The Magtech is truly a beast. (have also posted volumes on this amp)
Like Audiophilander, it just very neutral, no grain, it will show you all the upstream warts. I never understood the term "effortless power" until that amp showed up. At any volume, it does not change character and just pumps sound, like it is 6 inch pipe of power feeding the Maggies.
I really cannot tell you the differences between the Bel Canto M600's, But would love to do a side by side in my own rig with the Magtech.
Color wise I am a modernist, the aluminum sides with the gray fabric is just dead sexy, IMHO..
Subs are gone, fake silk fichus work as great diffusors and some absorption. The speaker placement is the HK/Limage. Ask Sadie about that, google or search my moniker.
Congrats on the 3.7i's, you will enjoy them...
take care
Mark
Did Wendell give you any specific amp suggestions for the 3.7i's ?Cherry styles with either black or light gray.
TIA
Edits: 07/06/17
when I heard them at Sea Cliff with McIntosh 2301s.
Mike Hobson happened to be there at the same time and brought some wonderful "white album" 45 vinyl to hear. :)
For $22K/pair, they should. =)
"Did Wendell give you any specific amp suggestions for the 3.7i's ?"
No, Wendell did not have any specific amp suggestions for the 3.7i. The discussion about class D came up when I mentioned I had a pair of Gilmore Raptor amps that I heard might be a good match. I didn't get the impression that Wendell had anything in particular against the Gilmore amps, but rather class D in general.
...it might be worth your time to check out the Sander's Magtech. This stereo amp outputs 900 watts per channel of clean Class AB power into 4 ohms. Maggie's like to drink current, so it's a good fit. Sound-wise, I'd describe the Magtech as totally neutral, neither warm nor cold. It conveys openness and detail of whatever is in front of it (tubes or transistors) without strain. There are many other fine amps of various wattages and efficiency that mate well with Maggies, but I've had this combination for two years now with no complaints. Also, the Sander's warranty is hard to beat.Cheers,
AuPh
Edits: 07/13/17
I took a brief look at the Sander's website. The guys at TAS really seem to like the Magtech. Any Stereophile reviews? I did a quick search and couldn't find any.
Ultimately, of course, we all need to trust our own ears. I was just curious.
Read Roger's design approach from his website (including his white papers).
Roger said the best arrangement comes from active vertical biamping if your speakers support active biamping. Each stereo amp becomes a mono-block if you will without the need for bridging. All crosstalk is eliminated, each channel can have it's own AC circuit and you can eliminate speaker cables in exchange for short jumpers. Longer XLR signal line runs are better than the same length in speaker cables.
FWIW, Roger used to offer a $500 discount on large purchases (e.g. amps) if you mentioned you are a member of the Martin Logan Owner's Group or the Planar Speaker Asylum.
Edits: 07/13/17
I might be buying a new 4B³ if I go for the 20.7s..
I am trying to decide of upgrading is audiophilia madness or just something to do... Last time I jumped on a new car (I really did not need) instead of buying the 20.7s.. That car is two months away from being paid off.
Then.. do I buy the amp first? or the speakers... Refinancing the car is the easiest way to gain instant cash on hand.. It should still be worth $18K as collateral..
For YOU, I would certainly LISTEN to the new speakers with your current amp. Other folks biases do not make for realistic decisions.
As for amplifiers.. When I was going for the 3.6.. I did some reading, and Bryston was the #1 'recommended' choice.. I owned a Forte'4a then. But thought the little 50 watts/channel Forte' was too small. As I have upgraded other bits, the Bryston amp has clearly been able to let the better sound flow through it. SO I think the Bryston has been a great choice for me.
IMO the fireplace is not a 'big deal' acoustical problem.. It is more of a 'so what'. LOL
I've done similar. Bought a car I didn't need and then sold the car to finance more audio toys.
I've got my eye on a used Levinson 432 amp 400w into 8 ohms and 800w into 4 ohms. Wasn't that a Levinson amp they used for welding?
Yup, I know. Get the speakers first. Best of luck with the 20.7 Maybe I'll come listen to them someday.
I think the welding was done prior to the 4XX series. The 4XX series are not rated for 2 Ohms (at least not openly spec'd for it). The 3XX series was spec'd for 2 Ohms and doubled it's power output at each of 8, 4 and 2 ohms. The 4XX series also introduced internal fans. The model 33's were @ 700 lbs if I remember correctly with huge power reserves (@ 1/2 a Farad of capacitance per monoblock).
Edits: 07/15/17
"IMO the fireplace is not a 'big deal' acoustical problem.. It is more of a 'so what'. LOL"
Oh well, happens when I worry for stupid reasons : - ) )
Happily, 4B's can help those puppies of yours create their own combo charms.
I have never heard anything bad about the Gilmore amps.W4S has designed and built their own Class-D amps in their upcoming Signature line. From one pre-review that I read, they will not be licensing their digital switching amp technology to others like what ICEPower and NCore does. It will be interesting to see how they preform when they finally are released for sale.
Edits: 07/07/17
The ribbon maggies reveal the grain in most class D amp's top end. However, there are several kinds of class D amps. NuForce and NuPrime (same engineers) use a 600khz sine wave modulation, while B&O and Hypex NCore and Ucd use 400khz triangle wave carriers. The top end of the NuForce amps is better, their midrange is impeccable. The top end is not on par with a good tube amp or a great SS class A amp. The lack of compression on the Devialet and other feed forward amps and on the NuForce/Prime is very impressive. Well executed class D based on the other OEM boards can do great from midbass to midrange.
In the deep bass, class D amps tend to fail in maintaining current due to insufficient storage capacitance to bridge the 60hz at high current. Maggies being current hogs at low frequencies really show up the class D amp's limitations.
With these observations I have no trouble understanding Wendell's issue with class D. But try to drive your speakers with your current amp first and then line up some class AB candidates to try out to see if you can do better.
"In the deep bass, class D amps tend to fail in maintaining current due to insufficient storage capacitance to bridge the 60hz at high current. Maggies being current hogs at low frequencies really show up the class D amp's limitations."
That is a power supply issue, not a Class-D issue. There are numerous Class-D amps (both commercial and DIY) that utilize linear power supplies with large capacitance reservoirs.
You should read up on the switching frequency and type of modulator used in Ncore technology. (The white paper has been available for a few years now.)
https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/WP_Ncore_Technology.pdf
Dave.
There are class D amps with linear supplies that should not have the problem. I have not heard any of them since the HCA2.
I perused the Ncore white papers looking for an attempt to get better resolution. Instead they spoke about the tradeoff between better resolution and power performance and they pushed for the power side. So I dropped the Ncores as uninteresting and spent no more time looking at them and the commercial designs that use them. I follow the occasional review of Ncore or UCD amps but that is as far as it goes. I must say that they get very good reviews.
Since the HCA-2? Maybe it's time for you to revisit this technology? :) It's no wonder you experienced "grain in the top end" with that POS amp as your most recent listening reference.
Regards Hypex, if you became uninterested that was a mistake. The Ncore amplifiers push the bar higher than it's ever been for Class-D performance......both from an objective testing standpoint and from the subjective evaluation side. (IMHO on that second part.)
You seem to have an answer for everything on the PSA. I think you should actually get some experience with these type of amplifiers before offering any further opinions on them.
Dave.
I may be out of date. The technology continues to improve but I have not sampled recent designs. Any suggestions on linear PS class D amps I should seek out?
Yeah. The new Ncore-based ATI amps.
Dave.
There seems to be radio silence on ATI's new NCORE amps. Not much posted out there.
assembler of common parts used most often by the DIY community.
What's new to say? Do they have a really cool box?
A DIY friend of mine who spends a lot of time at the diyaudio forum and has built a number of class D amps, laughed yesterday when I asked him what was so special about the new NCORE amps. He said there was nothing special, at least in his opinion.
My friend's latest project was a low power class A amp, so maybe he has given up on class D - at least for now.
They're newer models. Also, ATI doesn't have the audiophile nose-in-the-air appeal many "high-end" amplifier manufacturers have so they will never garner widespread interest from that niche.
However, there are reviews and usage reports already available.
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/ati-at527nc-and-at524nc-amplifiers-review
Dave.
That was the only review I saw. It was more a home theater review.
ATI apparently owns Theta, so they should have some audiophile chops.
Their AT542NC appears to be 4 Ohm stable, not 2. Would Maggies put them on the edge ?
I don't see any claim for 2 ohm operation with the AT54X series amps. The bridged configuration would yield a 2 ohm load on each amplifier with a 4 ohm speaker.
So, I think probably, the AT52X series would be preferable in this application.
The amplifier I have is an NC500-based unit that doesn't have any problems with my (4 ohm) MMG's.
Dave.
Kessler is a well regarded designer in his own right, and ATI is a big OEM manufacturer. The Theta Ncore Prometheus monos date back to 2013 so they had been at it for a while.
The Theta Ncore Prometheus uses the NC1200 which are supposed to be stable to 2 Ohms and are not running bridged. I would like to hear these.
The reviewer compared it against his reference ML334 amp (ML's entry level stereo amp against Theta's mono-blocks). A more appropriate comparison would have been against the ML335 or ML336 (similar power and price).
ML334:
Rated output power: 125/250/500
Price: $5,900
NC1200:
Rated output power: 400/700/1200
Prometheus Rated output power: 250/500/850
Prometheus Price: $12,000
ML335:
Rated output power: 250/500/1000
Price: $7,900
ML336:
Rated output power: 350/700/1400
Price: $9,500
I have the ML336 in house and think it would be an interesting comparison.
The Maggie 4 ohm load is mostly resistive without dips. If the amp does 4 ohms well then you are just fine.
My Maggies are not on edge.
Do you have some two ohm Maggies?
Dave.
4 Ohms is supposed to be an average, not the exact value across the entire frequency range. Maggies vary less than Stats from what I understand, but they still vary.I always try to buy amps with a safety margin and not run them on edge.
Their AT542NC are also bridged at 4Ohms which would appear to also put them on edge.
Maybe I am being paranoid.
Edits: 07/09/17 07/09/17
4 Ohms is supposed to be an average, not the exact value across the entire frequency range.
While I certainly cannot say that every Magnepan product is like the ones Stereophile tested, the "exact" values seem to not delve into the electrostatic top octave realm.
MG 1.6
MG 3.6
As for me, I find them pretty darn linear in their impedance profile. Apparently, Wendell pulled the plug on reviews afterwards since even JA concedes:
"As I have written before in these pages, measuring physically large speakers with in-room quasi-anechoic techniques is in some ways a fruitless task. The usual assumption, that the measuring microphone is very much farther away than the largest dimension of the speaker being measured, is clearly wrong. "
Some people incorrectly think if an amp can drive smaller Maggies they can also larger Maggies because they are all 4 Ohm and @ 84dB rated.I have empirically found that not to be true. The spec'd ratings don't account for the wider frequency range and larger square footage of drivers to be controlled. What works well on MMG's or 1.6's may not be able to control larger panels in the same fashion.
Edits: 07/13/17
I thought the conversation was about impedance dropping below 4 ohms.
Admittedly, I've only heard large Maggies (20.1/3.6/3.7) using either 200 or 300 watt amps.
E-Stat, Excuse my rambling. FWIW, I have heard them from 100 - 2,000 WPC including passive and active biamping. So far, active vertical biamping appears to be the best that I have heard, but the new *.7(i) series is closing the door to that option. I haven't heard any tri-amping yet.
Edits: 07/15/17
Looking at the impedances of speakers that were used in the test and comparing to Maggie 3.6 which is the last ribbon for which there are measurements. You can see that the maggie load has a very mild curve and its only fault is the current drain due to low sensitivity and high back EMF at low freq./high excursion.
So if there is a solid 4 ohm rating the amp should not hit any snags driving the maggie till it just plain runs out of power.
A few folks around here, including the late Al Sekela, to whom I owe much for some of my system's attributes, drove their large Maggies with Raptors for a while. Al held them in high regard, though I think his were in multi-amping duty. At least someone else loved them with his 3.x Maggies for a while, and may have had to pay good money for a suitable upgrade.If you already own them...
Edits: 07/07/17
LOL, "Magnepan worthy" is being added to my list of terms. If Wendell said your are good, then you are. In my book that would also mean they can go back to Magnepan if they can't be made to work with reasonable effort.
Yes, he may be right. I've yet to hear a good set of Maggies do their best with class D amps...but there may be some out there. BTW, you may have heard from the gang here about the Sanders Magtech amp. A really impressive combo they do make with the 3.7/i. This pairing has shown me the best 3D imaging -- in a huge sound stage -- that I've yet heard from any Maggies or speaker in a Demo room .
Oops, the 802D were on my mind when I meant 800. I was more worried about your next purchase being properly qualified. The former are what I recommended to a close friend so I could get to listen to music on them regularly : - ) ). Actually, that's his joke but they are a better fit for him than Maggies, and I do get the extra frequent benefit. Can't blame you for liking the 800D.
I don't mean to open the Can Of Worms that is a discussion of 'D' amp, but any feedback on the nCore stuff from hypex?
That being said, i had some ASP module ICE amps for a couple years but traded for something a little more to my liking.
I'm thinking a pair of the nCore 400 amps and a MiniDSP in each of 2 enclosures.....one for each panel. Given bandwidth limiting TO the amps, that's gonna be equal to at least a KW per speaker.
Too much is never enough
AbeCollins has posted about the NC400 and said they were not quite there. He did give the NC1200's high praise when mated to a friend's 3.6's. Apparently, the NC1200's are not available for DIY and have a manufacturer's minimum fixed price policy from what I have read.
Edits: 07/07/17
I very Briefly heard the nCore1200 several years ago at THE-Newport. But not long enough to form an opinion and I don't even remember the partnered speakers or front end.
I did speak with Bruno for a few minutes. An interesting, intense fellow.
The only bit of nCore for the DIY crowd is the 400. The rest is all for the OEM installer.
Too much is never enough
The fireplace can be dealt with if you can either pull the speakers far into the room and away from it, or can place a pair of fake ficus trees behind the speakers to diffuse the backwave before it hits the mantle and fireplace.
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