Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

Tick tock.....20.7s

76.112.209.8

July is Maggie month. My wife and I are expecting the delivery of some beautiful bouncing 20.7s this month. I still have nubs left for teeth as I wait. Tick tock. ....

Follow Ups:

RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - Green Lantern 18:21:37 07/05/17 (112)
congrats! I'm listening to 'the fast' by Avishai Cohen through my 20 y/o MG20r's and I'll tell you what- when your system is hittin' on all cylinders and the audio gods are smilin' down on ye'; brother NOTHING can compare!
- RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - timm 18:27:37 07/05/17 (111)
  Thank you brutha Lantern!!
  
  I can hardly wait. They will be in a room that is new to listening but has a great quietness and great vibe. Evenings are going to be magical I think.
  - RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - timm 16:12:19 07/12/17 (110)
    Called magnepan today... The 20s are ready to ship. :)
    - RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - timm 17:55:34 07/13/17 (109)
      Woohoo!! Tomorrow is delivery!!
      
      Went home and got all my electronics set up in the new room.
      
      This is gonna be great. This is a new room and music has never played in it. So I will have new cables... new speakers .. and a new room. A lot of variables. A lot of break in.
      
      I'm going to 'kerplop' them in the spot where I think??? They will work well. 10' off front wall and about 1.5' from side walls in a 17x30 room. Putting the electronics in the speaker plane between. Gonna fiddle but that will take a bit.
      - RE: If only a 1.5' gap between each panel and the side wall ... - andyr 23:22:32 10/20/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick tock.....20.7s posted by timm on July 13, 2017 at 17:55:34
        
        I suggest you meed to have ribbons in.
        
        Andy
      - RE: Tick Tock - josh358 18:11:38 07/14/17 (107)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick tock.....20.7s posted by timm on July 13, 2017 at 17:55:34
        
        So did they come? :-)
        
        RE: Tick Tock - timm 09:16:22 07/15/17 (106)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick Tock posted by josh358 on July 14, 2017 at 18:11:38
        
        The eagle has landed. :). Lots of breakin. I have new wireworld eclipse cables and new room Things are a little hot. So I have no real perspective and these cables are known to need break in. Symphony / classical sounds pretty sweet right now. Vocals on acoustic rock seem to be a little hot. I will post pics later on. And get advice etc. these are totally different beasts than the logans
        
        Congrats on the new arrival - emailtim 02:31:33 07/16/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick Tock posted by timm on July 15, 2017 at 09:16:22
        
        Congrats on the new arrival. You should have some very nice tunes ahead of you. Enjoy.
        
        Congrats !!!! - Satie 12:32:31 07/15/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick Tock posted by timm on July 15, 2017 at 09:16:22
        
        As Josh pointed out, the mids and bass loosen up with break in and rise to treble levels over time.
        While room treatments will change the overall tonal balance of the room by attenuating mostly treble, bass traps and absorption can be tailored for midrange frequencies and some common living room items just happen to suck up particular frequencies.
        
        Placement affects midrange and particularly midbass heavily so you should explore that as the speakers break in, the Rooze scheme of bouncing the output off a sidewall is particularly kind to you while the speakers are breaking in as that positioning attenuates some of the highs. So this would be a good time to experiment with it.
        
        RE: Tick tock - josh358 10:10:50 07/15/17 (103)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick Tock posted by timm on July 15, 2017 at 09:16:22
        
        Excellent!
        
        Yeah, you won't really know now they sound until the speakers are broken in and they've developed their full bass extension. Otherwise, it sounds like you may need a bit more HF absorption in the room but I think I'd tweak placement etc. before I did that, according to Wendell, when systems sound too bright it's often not because there's too much HF output, but because midbass levels are too low.
        
        It's amazing how much bass levels change as you move the speakers and listening position . . .
        
        RE: Tick tock - timm 07:10:28 07/16/17 (102)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick tock posted by josh358 on July 15, 2017 at 10:10:50
        
        Hi all... thank you for the 'cheers'... :)
        
        So to give you an overview.... when they came in ... I will say they didn't 'sound great out of the box'.... In fact - when I first hooked them up ... I thought - omg - everyone was right... It is an amp.... room.... whatever mismatch!!!! The vocal was very 'tizzy' - vocals sounded like they were a bit sharp.... coming from about 20 ft behind the speaker etc...
        This was all with brand new cabling... an amp that had sat idle for a week un-plugged ... and a new room that had never had any type of music played in it ever.... Then - things started to change....
        
        After about 5 hours - vocals sounded less 'tizzy' .. but still had edges.... probably about a 50% improvement..... I asked my son - 'what would be a good organ works we could put on to help these break in while we go do some stuff'... Some Bach ... of some sort - (I am not an expert ... he is...).... So I let that play for about 4 hours in the day along with Beethoven violin quartets or sonatas or something or other.... (I like it... I just don't know it... :) ).... So, we probably put about 10 more hours on them while I wasn't listening.... I would go down and listen periodically - and I brought a folding chair to try different positions.... I have them about 9' edge to edge spread apart with minor toe in.... Not much in the way of absorption /diffusion along the front wall.... So - I started monkeying with seating position....
        
        Initially location was speakers -10' off front wall / about 1.5' from side walls...9' apart ... in a 17X30 room.... Listening position 12' from mid line of speaker plane.... (later added 2 GIK 244's along the front wall) So, I moved the folding chair to around the 10' mark.... Way better.... a little more solid ... little more percussive... better center imaging ... less diffuse.... So - had my son and his girlfriend come down later that night to try it... everyone agreed... couch is moving up 2'.... (and as you know a 10' distance from 20.7s seems like near-field....as they are so imposing)... So later that night - we put on some symphonic - Mahler 5 - Tilson/Thomas ... Rachaninov (sp?) - piano concerto #2.... Tchaikovsky - Swan Lake - Jarvi ...... Beethoven Piano sonatas .... Well all of the above sounded exceptional.... The tympanis are still a little under wraps ... but they are better.... as are the mids..... Horns are pretty exceptional as are violins.
        
        In the middle of all this we noticed ... 'hey - the right speaker needs to be toed in more'.... and bam!! - more focus ... more solid foundation.... Lets put on 'The Floyd'.... so I put on Wish you were here -- because doggone it - I needed to hear that opening acoustic guitar and I needed something to say 'wow' about... We were not disappointed..... Secondly - put on Dark Side of the Moon..... to listen to a track or so.... Listened to the whole damn album.... Something very magical is starting to happen.... This sacd version has always sounded fairly muddled to me.... Not no mo'.... Hearing things - quite frankly I have never heard before.... Vocals are starting to snap into place - and have better focus.... No longer the 'tunnel effect' .... but still with a ton of depth.... yet more 'one with the music'.....
        
        If I can get my jazz 5 terabyte disk to mount - I'll be set (while moving everything - my flakey computer will only mount 3 of my drives thru the hub- and the drive is fine as I checked it on another computer)....
        
        So - will continue on this journey.... get pics and report more as I go along..... Sorry for the length... but this is a bit of fun....and having the room/cables/speakers all come together all at once is really a bit overwhelming.... haha...
        
        RE: tick tock - josh358 09:22:43 07/16/17 (101)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tick tock posted by timm on July 16, 2017 at 07:10:28
        
        They should just keep getting better as they burn in. And I have a feeling you'll be playing with placement for a while. :-) Dipoles are always like that, but it's fun to listen to music and play with toe-in and position.
        
        RE: tick tock - timm 10:05:13 07/16/17 (100)
        
        In Reply to: RE: tick tock posted by josh358 on July 16, 2017 at 09:22:43
        
        yes... there is still an edge to vocals that needs to be worked out as well as lower bass etc.... generally just about everything still seems to be settling in..... The ribbon tweeter though .... I think??? seems to be where it is gonna be..... I think the rest is as Satie had said - the panels catching up with the ribbon tweeter.... I do have other ways to tame it a bit on the amp end ... but I'm not interested in that for now... I'm just letting her play... :)
        
        Btw - the whole installation process with the tweeters and the bases... that is a labor of love ... I will tell you that..... patience and perserverence..... not like pictures wouldn't be helpful.....
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 05:45:16 07/19/17 (95)
        
        In Reply to: RE: tick tock posted by timm on July 16, 2017 at 10:05:13
        
        Yeah, I don't think there's much of a change in ribbon tweeters, because they aren't under tension so there's no fundamental resonance to shift as the material limbers up.
        
        Agree with Satie that you should let things settle in before worrying about the fine points of tonal balance, otherwise you'll be chasing a moving target. You could use a tweeter resistor temporarily to restore balance, then after they're broken in and positioned you can fine tune the room.
        
        I think it's time to get some absorption in myself -- spend a few days tweaking speaker position and then put a rug in, and some absorption behind the listening position and measure Rt and take it from there.
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 07:23:28 07/19/17 (94)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 19, 2017 at 05:45:16
        
        So these tweaks I am doing.... they are not for 'final sound' but for something presentable... So I did something last night ... which was to increase the toe in.... I would say before the angle was pointing behind my head... So - I had toe in - but - I had a fairly diffuse ... with depth that went 10' behind the speakers.... This was quite noticeable on vocal.... The vocal sounded a bit edgy - a bit tipped up... a bit thin.... So, I toed it in more where now the middle of the speaker is almost pointing at my head...and things look more like they are in an arc.... The vocals came forward... lost the diffuse aspect.... but we still have depth... just not with the vocal 10' behind the speaker..... Things sounding better still.... as you said Josh... I think I am going to be doing this for awhile as these seem to be way more sensitive - as compared to the logan (guessing because of the shear size of the panel - plus the Logan curved panel).....
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 08:37:56 07/19/17 (93)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 19, 2017 at 07:23:28
        
        That sounds right to me, you want to be on axis so the XO lobes are right and it will also affect room interaction, how much bounces off the rear walls and how much off the sides. I find that if you tune them with mirrors on the sides you can eliminate the side wall reflection so you're seeing the edge of the speaker in the mirror, and then everything pops into better focus.
        
        Interesting that the logans were less sensitive. Maybe it's because they're a curved shape that focuses the sound coming from the back?
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 09:56:41 07/19/17 (92)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 19, 2017 at 08:37:56
        
        I think it is the curved panel .... the woofer as opposed to a panel for bass.... and the shear difference in the back wave vs the Maggie... I have Odysseys - which is one of their larger models... But the rear wave on that panel can not compare to the size of the Maggie rear wave.... And I think how that rear wave is managed by the user is the key.... A good example might be - if I get the logans wrong - they are fairly dull sounding .... If I had them with less toe-in - I don't really get this large of a difference as compared to the big Maggies... The difference on the Mags is night and day...... The difference on the Logans is more of a tweak - one being preferable over the other.... But noticeably so!! :)
        
        RE: Here you go - Satie 10:56:49 07/19/17 (91)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 19, 2017 at 09:56:41
        
        That is more an issue of having a single driver mid and treble on the MLs while that is two drivers with a crossover in the maggies. That results in significant changes in freq response with minor changes of driver offsets - which is what you are changing (among others) when you adjust toe in. That is what Josh is referring to in lobing. That also reflects in driver timing changing as you adjust toe in.
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 11:34:06 07/19/17 (90)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Satie on July 19, 2017 at 10:56:49
        
        that makes complete sense to me.... :) ... obviously moving the tweeter back and the mids / base forward - via toe in would change exactly as you say --- whereas the logan is static in that regard as far as distance goes from the listening position...
        
        All I know is - and as you know - but I am first experiencing.... The differences make the voices (just more noticeable here I believe) - as an example go from 20 ft behind the speakers to @ speaker plane and a couple feet behind depending on the toe in movement.... The logan really doesn't impact depth that much based on my experience ... but you do get a more solid image based on toe in...
        
        So much to do..... :)
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 19:07:10 07/20/17 (89)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 19, 2017 at 11:34:06
        
        There's so much going on it can be hard to predict. The XO lobes in front, as Satie mentioned -- see Fig. 1a:
        
        http://www.rane.com/note160.html
        
        But also the lobes in back and then the specular reflections as well.
        
        So you have front/back, separation, toe in -- and that's before acoustic treatment!
        
        Crossver Lobing (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 09:47:11 07/22/17 (88)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 20, 2017 at 19:07:10
        
        So start of day 7. Have 42 hours on them so far. I listen with ear up to the speakers and the bass panel does seem reduced in volume. Although I have no solid reference to compare that to. Everything I have read says 'weeks' as you all have stated. Would we expect volume levels of the bass panel to increase over time? Thanks.
        
        Ears to bass - Satie 13:26:54 07/22/17 (82)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 22, 2017 at 09:47:11
        
        The ears to bass gives a wrong idea of bass output. As the lower frequencies are coupled from the whole diaphragm, and the lowest diaphragm resonances are supposed to be at the bottom half of the speaker.
        
        If you are anxious about the performance you are getting vs. a demo list you equipment chain and positioning photos so we might be able to figure out what the possible sources of lesser performance might be - other than being early on in the break in process.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 17:34:28 07/23/17 (18)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Satie on July 22, 2017 at 13:26:54
        
        Here are a couple of images. For reference. They are 10' from the front wall. 9' apart... and my head is 9' from the plane of the speakers
        View from back wall.
        
        RE: ears to bass - josh358 14:28:43 07/27/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 23, 2017 at 17:34:28
        
        So you've centered them between the wall and the mantle? That's what I've done, I also have a mantle on the right and it's right where the sidewall reflections hit, so I figured that was my best bet.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 17:35:42 07/23/17 (16)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 23, 2017 at 17:34:28
        
        View from front wall.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - Satie 19:36:18 07/23/17 (15)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 23, 2017 at 17:35:42
        
        Have you tried a Limage setup yet?
        
        For future reference you might want to consider an active preamp, possibly tube based. That will filll out the bass and kick up dynamics on the PS audio's output. My friend's Focal Nova Utopia are no slouches in dynamics nor bass but with the Coda or Moon amps directly from the DS they sounded anemic and not quite as bass heavy as they should. Trying a few preamps he settled on the DHT transformer coupled Coincident Signature preamp.
        
        I think that PS audio DS has too small a power supply to operate as a preamp and drive a power amp to its full output. It needs a real preamp. Dig one up if you have one, or borrow and try that out and you will see if the PS Audio DS is the culprit. It very much sounds like that is what you are describing.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 19:54:40 07/23/17 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Satie on July 23, 2017 at 19:36:18
        
        Well. As a matter of fact - I have a Cary slp98p sidelined because of a power supply issue. With the logans (passive bass model - Odysseys) I thought the system had more bass with the DS direct. Not saying things couldn't be different now with different speakers ....
        
        Haven't tried limage yet. 40% into room - by the walls-- no toe in correct - adjust seat position accordingly?
        
        Btw. Vocals are getting more weight.
        
        Time to get out the tape.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - Satie 10:42:15 07/24/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 23, 2017 at 19:54:40
        
        The Cary is a very nice preamp and it is a shame to have sidelined for delayed repairs. It should do the job
        
        Yes, the basic Limage starting point is speakers face forwards, 1 ft off the sidewalls and the distance to the frontwall at 40%. Initial listening position is about 2' off the back wall.
        
        First adjustment is determining the distance to the front wall. Since you are in a room with "classic" Limage proportions you can use the crouching walk method to find the room's null plane where you get the cathedral effect. Then move the speakers to that plane and repeat till you get the same position you are already in. (null plane is where the speaker plane is)
        
        Then you adjust the slot to the sidewall to obtain the right tonal balance, Then you proceed to locate the best seat position, usually just a few inches away from the initial mark.
        
        Finally you go for tweaking the toe in - really very fine adjustments.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 06:51:41 07/27/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Satie on July 24, 2017 at 10:42:15
        
        I will say... Things seem to be hitting their stride.... Right around the 80 hr mark.... Very large difference.... and I am expecting more - we shall see.... Initially I increased toe-in which increased bass... I have since toed back out a bit - as I get more depth and space - but bass is still there as well....
        
        Things are moving forward in a very positive direction.... :)
        
        RE: Ears to bass - josh358 14:32:12 07/27/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 27, 2017 at 06:51:41
        
        To be expected. :-)
        
        I noticed a couple of things about your room -- nice big rectangular size, but the whole floor is carpeted which is going to eat some highs (narrowband rather than broadband absorption), and you're lacking diffusing surfaces, formal or ad hoc, so you may be having problems with slap echo -- try clapping above your head and listen to the decay.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - Desafinado 21:34:19 07/23/17 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 23, 2017 at 19:54:40
        
        Timm you have created a beautiful venue for the new Maggies.
        The dark cherry with black fabric combination complements the warm rich
        tones chosen for your new room.
        
        Congratulations!
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 08:23:45 07/24/17 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Desafinado on July 23, 2017 at 21:34:19
        
        hey - thanks.....
        
        I didn't exactly make everything look 'spiffy' in those pics... but yah you get the idea.... When I play - those overheads are out - and the floor lamp in the back of the room is on.... Gives a very rich feeling...
        
        Last night - played Brubeck - Time Out.... Sort of a 'yowsa' moment'.... In particular the drum solo.... well actually everything about it... but- my obsession with 'how does it sound today?' really seems to be getting out of hand... haha.... Thing is - if I put a great recording on - things really sound .... great...... I do think I am getting a bit more bass and fullness to the mids.... I just don't think it is 'there there' yet....
        
        And if anyone doubts that these break in - they do... No doubt about this.... end of discussion (kind of like what Al Gore said about Global warming.... :) ) ...... Everything so far has really tied to Dan Saltzman's review in Absolute Sound...... as he wrote about 're-writing the bass part of the review three times....' I am only 63 hours in ... and have noted an improvement.... but it just isn't there yet as I said above...
        
        If anyone has any input on the room in regards to where they are placed within it .... as you see I have that pesky pole that I am putting in the null spot..... I could push them back to 5' from the front wall and bring my listening position up..... or try a limage type of setup.... My son is coming over this weekend -- We may get 'crazy'.... after marking off the positions.... Of course my wife will be yelling down.... 'what are you two doing down there?????' :) The lights got flipped on last night at 12:15.... 'What are you still doing up??? You need to go to sleep!' Oh boy.....
        
        RE: Ears to bass - josh358 14:36:29 07/27/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 24, 2017 at 08:23:45
        
        I wouldn't worry about the pole if it's in the null. If it's behind the speaker (or in front but not blocking it), I'd put a mirror on it and if you see HF or midrange drivers put some absorption on it to make it disappear. If you don't, it doesn't much matter. Low frequencies will just diffract around it.
        
        Don't know if you've tried changing the separation as they recommend in the manual, moving them apart until you get a hole in the middle and then back together. I usually end up liking them on an equilateral triangle (to mids and tweeters, not the woofers) but many people like them closer together.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - uncle mag 11:50:00 07/24/17 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 24, 2017 at 08:23:45
        
        Hi Timm, Try moving them towards the front corners, start around 3 feet from front and side walls.
        
        With music playing move one speaker out equidistant to front and side walls from there in small increments until you hear it couple with the room. Walk around and listen after each move. You will hear volume increase and the music become more full and rich. Repeat with others speaker.
        
        It'll take some time, distance to walls may end up being close or far, but you'll know when you hear the magic. IMO 10 feet out is too far when the speakers are so close to the side walls.
        Move ten them forward and backward, sideways, there will be a sweet spot for each speaker.
        
        Good luck,
        Paul
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 09:58:42 07/25/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by uncle mag on July 24, 2017 at 11:50:00
        
        This weekend I think I will mark my current spot and go on a fishing expedition and move things a bit aggressively to see what happens to the overall tonality... I know right now my image is pretty good but who knows
        
        RE: Ears to bass - josh358 14:38:37 07/27/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 25, 2017 at 09:58:42
        
        I always end up trying them everywhere, and then end up with a fairly conventional arrangement -- equilateral triangle, toed in so they're on axis, as far from surfaces as possible -- but you have more latitude than I do because I have a sucky small room.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 15:11:25 07/27/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by josh358 on July 27, 2017 at 14:38:37
        
        Thanks josh. Right now - I think things are still changing. So it is hard to nail down exact positioning yet. And us obsessive types do want the final position and to be done with it.
        
        What I am noticing now ...regardless of music type is bass that is blossoming Mids that seem to have more attack. Improved imaging because of improved dynamics.
        
        Remember. This was brand new wire ...new room ... new speaker. I have absolutely no real X sounded like this - in this room. I am sure I have a little bit of slap echo - but it isn't too bad.
        
        Listening to Rite of Spring - Fischer - Budapest Festival - simply jaw dropping. Beatles the other night - the same. Ray Brown Trio - Soular Energy or Brubeck Take Five - wow. Dead Can dance - Enter the Labyrinth ??? Wow-wow. So I am all over the map and getting successful results with 80 hrs on them.
        
        But I will fiddle - mark my spots and see what I got.
        
        RE: ears to bass - josh358 20:02:23 07/27/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 27, 2017 at 15:11:25
        
        Heh, I started to answer this a few hours ago but decided to listen to Take 5 first. And there was something up on Tidal already when I opened it, string quartets that sounded so natural that I couldn't stop listening. So by the time I got to Take 5, I'd had those playing for several hours while I did some chores. The IVA's are sounding amazingly real since I fixed some cold solder joints the original owner made the other day and made some other improvements in my setup.
        
        Anyway, the night is young as far as your setup is concerned! So figure they'll just keep getting better as you dial them in.
        
        RE: ears to bass - timm 20:40:37 07/27/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ears to bass posted by josh358 on July 27, 2017 at 20:02:23
        
        Ahh. Yes it is. Put on another ex beatle record - McCartney's Kisses on the Bottom. I was stunned not just because of the recording quality but it is just a bunch of old jazzy standards. Not a bunch of pop - old guy trying to act like he is 20 crap. Very impressive Sir Paul.
        
        One thing that blew me a way a bit - and I didn't mention it. Maybe you guys know - but these behemoths actually do not rest on the bottom of the stands. They are about 1/4 inch above the stand with the L bracket just suspending them. Another thing I was impressed with in this post!! :)
        
        RE: ears to bass - josh358 13:55:31 07/28/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ears to bass posted by timm on July 27, 2017 at 20:40:37
        
        Heh, no, I didn't know that.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - Satie 10:47:00 07/24/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by timm on July 24, 2017 at 08:23:45
        
        Sons are very useful audiophile accessories. Do make use of the young ears and strong back....
        
        RE: Ears to bass - Norman M 10:17:15 07/23/17 (61)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Satie on July 22, 2017 at 13:26:54
        
        "The ears to bass gives a wrong idea of bass output. As the lower frequencies are coupled from the whole diaphragm, and the lowest diaphragm resonances are supposed to be at the bottom half of the speaker."
        
        It would be interesting if any 20.X owners could confirm this "ear to bass" observation. I'm having a hard time accepting that the relative quantity of bass to non-bass (or less bass, whatever that means) will dramatically (or even less dramatically) change after completed burn-in, at least not in the way the speakers will be capable of playing deeper down in their sound spectrum.
        
        I know zipsters about how 20.7(i)s are supposed to be wired to their amplifiers, but if they don't provide full bass output, I think something is amiss. I attempted to confirm that either or both my Tympani IV-A lower bass and second bass drivers (mid-bass?) put-out more or less bass relative to my nearby ear location (top of speaker to floor level), but could not.
        I listened to both the L'Elephant from different Saint Saens' Carnival of the Animals recordings, and massed double basses in a portion of Mahler's First Symphony recordings, second movement in an A to B repeat mode.
        
        On the room placement of your 20.7 (and/or many other speakers as well), wherever in the room you hear them the most satisfying, I would at least attempt using them in the equilateral position, the distance between L and R speakers equal to the distance of each speaker to your ears.
        
        RE: Equilateral triangle ... - andyr 23:53:28 10/20/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Norman M on July 23, 2017 at 10:17:15
        
        You said " I would at least attempt using them in the equilateral position, the distance between L and R speakers equal to the distance of each speaker to your ears. ".
        The way I see it ... this (sensible) rule came from reviewers listing to boxed speakers - where the drivers are in a (vertical) line. So it is easy to measure the distance between the centres of the cones on the R & L ... and then take that distance to your ears.
        It's a very different scenario when you have panels over 2' wide - do you take your measurement (vertical) lines as the mid-points of:
        1. the bass drivers?
        2. the mid drivers?
        3. or the ribbons?
        And with 1. and 3. ... the distance will be quite different if ribbons are in - vs. having them out! :-))
        I personally use the distance between the ribbons as the base measurement. From that, given the dimensions of my room, I have a slightly narrower triangle than equilateral. Distance between ribbons is 90% of the distance from each ribbon to my ears.
        In the OP's 17' wide room, for best bass coupling I would put the centre of each bass panel 17/7 = 2'5" from the side wall. With ribbons in, this means the ribbons are approx 10' apart.
        So in his 30' long room, he could have chair and maggies in the 1/3rd positions - ideal! :-))
        Andy
        
        Edits: 10/20/17
        
        RE: Equilateral triangle ... - Satie 12:43:23 10/21/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Equilateral triangle ... posted by andyr on October 20, 2017 at 23:53:28
        
        I am not a believer in the equilateral placement as a precise target for locating the speakers relative to the listening seat (or vise versa) but as a general starting point. You can go closer in a squat triangle for a broader soundstage or further away for somewhat deeper than wider presentation.
        You just need to avoid extremes where the soundstage becomes concave in a squat triangle or convex in a tall/long triangle.
        Of course you need to control the early reflections from the center front wall first as those can form a concave soundstage due to a recessed center image. That is cured with diffusion, distancing the speaker form the front wall, using diverter panels on the backwave to create a reflection free zone at the center, or creating a center barrier on the line between the speakers to block early center front wall reflections.
        Images outside the spread of the speakers will be had with time coherent setups, and after sidewall treatment or distance there is little response to speaker placement angles, Distance to the listener, sitting in open space or near the back wall. Things can remain remarkably consistent as you move the tweeters closer or further apart or move the seat forwards and backwards so long as you re-align toe in to provide good time domain match up of the drivers at your listening position.
        This allows placement within a rectangle about 1/4 the length and width of the room with rather consistent results that are at least "good enough" and where you need only focus on fine tuning and adjusting toe in so relative driver offsets in each position remain the same to compensate for group delays.
        
        Edits: 10/21/17
        
        RE: Equilateral triangle ... - BDP24 16:57:20 10/21/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Equilateral triangle ... posted by Satie on October 21, 2017 at 12:43:23
        
        Satie, your idea of diffusers between the speakers is exactly what I'm planning on trying. I can get my speakers 5' from the front wall, which will result in the dipole back wave reflecting first off the side walls behind them, then to the front wall itself, where the equipment racks have to be. I'm going to put diffusers at that front wall reflection point, and on the sides of the equipment racks, to deal with the sound coming at them from the front wall. Should work, I'm thinking.
        
        RE: Equilateral triangle ... - Norman M 06:38:08 10/21/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Equilateral triangle ... posted by andyr on October 20, 2017 at 23:53:28
        
        'andyr', that's a good and obvious point which I've struggled with. I arbitrarily decided to pick a point where most of the particularly directional (and important?) information comes from. In my Tympani IV-A set up I chose the T/M panel. Well then, where within the T/M panel? I decided to chose that point within the center of the region between the ribbon and midrange drivers, so not any of your 1, 2 or 3 above options.
        
        RE: "center of the region between the ribbon and midrange drivers" ... - andyr 14:26:23 10/21/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Equilateral triangle ... posted by Norman M on October 21, 2017 at 06:38:08
        
        That is a logical choice, Norman ... but is it the optimum? I suggest that depends on where spatial cues come from - possibly the mid-range as well as the ribbons?
        
        If you believe the mids do play a part then - just considering a mid-tweeter panel - I would suggest the optimum line to take your measurements from is the mid point between:
        * the outer edge of the mylar on the mid driver, and
        * the outer edge of the ribbon.
        
        IOW, you take the total width of mid mylar plus ribbon ... and divide by 2. That will be about the edge of the mid mylar which abuts the ribbon - so about 2" shorter than your current measurement from panel to panel, if your ribbons are on the outside.
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "center of the region between the ribbon and midrange drivers" ... - Norman M 08:08:51 10/22/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "center of the region between the ribbon and midrange drivers" ... posted by andyr on October 21, 2017 at 14:26:23
        
        Thanks 'andyr', you pinned it down more accurately than I did. I will follow your suggestion to learn the result. (Yes, my T/M panel is on the outside.)
        
        RE: ears to bass - josh358 14:26:05 07/27/17 (53)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Norman M on July 23, 2017 at 10:17:15
        
        IIRC, Magnepan says in their manuals that they gaine about half an octave of bass extension after burn in. According to Wendell, this is because of thermal cycling. Presumably as the panels become more limber compliance increases, lowering the resonant frequencies of the panels.
        
        Listening in the near field will give you too much bass, because the backwave hasn't diffracted around the baffle so you aren't hearing dipole cancellation.
        
        Deep bass segments are at the bottom but you'll hear the bass everywhere in the room as the segments small compared to the size of the wavelength being produced so they have excellent dispersion.
        
        RE: ears to bass - Norman M 09:48:25 07/28/17 (52)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ears to bass posted by josh358 on July 27, 2017 at 14:26:05
        
        I never had cause to dispute (or challenge) any of the facts you quote/state. What drew my attention was that the o/p noted that there was am *imbalance* involving the bass energy from his speakers.
        In over 40 years of experience with four models of new straight out of their boxes Maggies, placed in multiple positions and in three different listening rooms, I never experienced his situation.
        Furthermore, 'burning-in' or playing any and all of my speakers changed 'bupkes' in their overall perceived sound quality.
        
        Edits: 07/28/17 07/28/17
        
        Hmmm - josh358 19:35:44 07/28/17 (50)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ears to bass posted by Norman M on July 28, 2017 at 09:48:25
        
        My own experience has been different. Admittedly, my sample size is small, since I bought both my 1-D's and IVA's used, but my MMG's sounded congested when I first got them. And I do know that the bass characteristics change. Don't know how much of an effect this has on balance, if any, since the additional response is at the bottom of the range, where in the case of 20.7's there isn't much program material unless you're listening to a pipe organ!
        
        RE: Hmmm - timm 08:35:41 08/01/17 (49)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by josh358 on July 28, 2017 at 19:35:44
        
        Well. Last night i decided to move the big boys around. They were 10' out - and I decided to push them back 5' and move them 1 foot closer together (9' apart at inside edge). Quite a huge difference in bass and lower mids. Still has spacious sound and depth but vocal is now more solid and things are more impactful.
        
        Have to let it settle in and listen a bit because anything different sounding can sound better at first. But this has moved in the right direction. Obviously has nothing to do with any break in - just me moving them around in the room.
        
        RE: Hmmm - josh358 12:39:50 08/01/17 (48)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by timm on August 01, 2017 at 08:35:41
        
        Amazing how much of a difference it makes, isn't it? I always end up pushing them around everywhere until I find the sweet spot. Not unpleasant since you can listen to music as you do . . .
        
        My latest discovery is how much of a difference the position of the diffusers makes. Something else to play with (sigh).
        
        RE: Hmmm - timm 18:06:52 08/01/17 (47)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by josh358 on August 01, 2017 at 12:39:50
        
        Yah. You know - people here were telling me about possibly losing bass and mid bass having them 10' out (Satie in another thread) and someone in this thread. I mean I have that flexibility - but I think they sound better 5' away from the front wall. We will see what I think in a week. Lol
        
        RE: Hmmm - josh358 19:18:07 08/01/17 (46)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by timm on August 01, 2017 at 18:06:52
        
        It's really going to depend on where they sit vis a vis the modes in your room . . . and of course the place where bass is smoothest never seems to be the place where imaging is best . . .
        
        RE: Hmmm - timm 18:15:34 08/03/17 (45)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by josh358 on August 01, 2017 at 19:18:07
        
        Well I will say - right now I am getting more bass out of these than my ML Odyssey + descent sub combo. Pretty amazing. This goes back to my thoughts of not needing any sub with these when I demoed them.
        
        The move made all the difference. But the fanatic in me wants to keep fiddling and moving them. I have my amp etc about 4' in front of me temporarily so I can move things around.
        
        I am tempted to try the long wall as I do have 17' of width to the room and a double door to open behind my head if I wanted. Right now they are on the short wall of a 17x30 room.
        
        RE: Hmmm - josh358 19:11:06 08/03/17 (44)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by timm on August 03, 2017 at 18:15:34
        
        I'd definitely try the long wall. They really do seem to blossom when they're away from corners, and if you get them far enough out from the front wall and have 11-1/2 feet behind you're head for a 20 ms delay, you're in great shape.
        
        RE: Hmmm - timm 06:02:40 08/04/17 (43)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by josh358 on August 03, 2017 at 19:11:06
        
        Let me ask another question to anyone. I'm sure answered somewhere. So the impact of moving them away from the side walls... what does that accomplish? My last move pushed them closer to the front wall and probably a foot closer together.
        
        Bass is now fantastic as are mids etc. that ribbon is the smoothest high end with extension ...I know there is science here that i just do not know. I understand the concept of reflective sound and how it impacts the presentation but not the nuts and bolts. The increased bass impact just changes the whole sound spectrum. Highs sound better. Voices sound better. And my hunch is the frequencies here are not that different. It is just the fuller sound makes them 'fit' better into the soundscape.
        
        My room is a perfect rectangle so ... you'd think I could figure this out on paper. Haha
        
        RE: Hmmm - Norman M 08:15:47 08/04/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by timm on August 04, 2017 at 06:02:40
        
        It depends upon the type of paint used on the room's walls. (Semigloss might be best. :-)).
        
        RE: Hmmm - timm 08:35:45 08/04/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by Norman M on August 04, 2017 at 08:15:47
        
        There u go. I used egg shell. It all makes sense now!! :)
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 06:46:56 08/04/17 (40)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Hmmm posted by timm on August 04, 2017 at 06:02:40
        
        Planars don't interact as much with the sidewalls as omnis, because they have a dipole null at the sides. If you put a mirror on the sidewall so that you an see the speaker's reflection from your listening seat, if you're looking edge-on at the reflected speaker that means you're right in the dipole null and you have no first reflection at all -- you'll notice an increase in clarity.
        
        However, as you move the planar (or to some extent any speaker) within maybe a foot or two of the sidewalls, all other things being equal, you get more bass -- sometimes too much, since the planars are tuned for a more conventional placement out from the walls. The reason for this is that the sidewall becomes an extension of the baffle, preventing the out-of-phase rear wave from cancelling the direct wave from the front at lower frequencies.
        
        Moving it to or fro -- the main thing you're hearing here is the axial room modes. Your room is like an organ pipe -- depending on dimension and the speed of sound, some bass frequencies stay in phase and reinforce as they bounce back and forth between the two opposite wall surfaces, while others are out of phase and cancel. (Actually this happens at all frequencies, but above maybe 300 Hz in a typical room, what's called the Schroeder Frequency, the modes are so close together that the ear stops hearing them as response aberrations.)
        
        Just as with an organ pipe the dimensions of the room determine the frequencies of the modes. There are online mode calculators that you can use to get an approximation of the modes in your room. With line source planars, the most important are the axial depth modes since the speakers are directional.
        
        At a given frequency you have what are called nodes and antinodes, which correspond to the oscillation of the standing wave. These are the minima and maxima of a sine wave. If you put your speaker -- or your ear -- at a minimum, you won't hear the mode! Whereas if you put either at a maximum, you will hear a significant bass boost at that frequency.
        
        (To make things a bit more complicated, dipoles behave the opposite of omnis as far as nodes are concerned, in that a node becomes an antinode and vice versa. This is because dipoles are velocity rather than pressure transducers. But in practice, this information is of use only insofar as it means that placement guides for omnis aren't accurate as guides for dipoles.)
        
        Sorry if that's all a bit confusing, there are some good explanations online -- it's a lot easier to explain with illustrations. But what this all means in practice is that you have to experiment with speaker placement and listening position to optimize the bass. A real time pink noise amplitude response measurement can really speed this process since you can see what's going on at a glance.
        
        Once you have the best position, you can further optimize things with bass trapping (corner traps are probably first) and equalization (really a must for the best possible bass, since bass traps are only partially effective).
        
        RE: Here you go - BDP24 14:37:26 08/04/17 (38)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on August 04, 2017 at 06:46:56
        
        Great, great post Josh!
        
        Tanks (nt) - josh358 15:19:57 08/06/17 (37)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by BDP24 on August 04, 2017 at 14:37:26
        
        .
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 08:40:42 08/28/17 (36)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on August 06, 2017 at 15:19:57
        
        Here is a pic of quasi final position. Note the caveat They are 4.5' / 5.5' (tweeter/mid-bass) from front wall. 2' from side walls. Head position is 12' from plane of tweeter. Head is 16' from front wall and 14' from rear wall. Speakers are 8.5' apart (inner edge to inner edge ) Room is 17x30
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 17:28:56 08/28/17 (35)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on August 28, 2017 at 08:40:42
        
        Wow, I envy your room. (Just heard that Jim Winey is using three 20.7's for three-channel stereo, so I envy him even more. :-) )
        
        So you like the image better with the speakers a bit less than 60 degrees? I've heard that a lot of people like that with Maggies. Makes for a more solid center image when I do it, at the expense of image width.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 18:13:14 09/15/17 (18)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on August 28, 2017 at 17:28:56
        
        So your post got me curious. I taped up the floor and increased toe in. Me likey. A touch more depth. Voices sound more spooky. And off center listening is better.
        Pic is taken from listening position
        
        Edits: 09/15/17 09/15/17
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 17:00:35 09/16/17 (17)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on September 15, 2017 at 18:13:14
        
        Wow, yeah, that's some toe in!
        
        Haven't had time to play with mine for the last couple of weeks because I was working on a project in the basement, but I'm not happy with the way I have them right now -- they're in line and the center image is well focused, but the image is too narrow.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 18:37:08 09/16/17 (16)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on September 16, 2017 at 17:00:35
        
        I will sit with this for awhile and fiddle some more. I just need to figure out what I think is best.
        I was surprised that the increased toe in bettered the sweet spot. I was expecting more focus and narrower sweet spot.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 12:29:57 10/05/17 (15)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on September 16, 2017 at 18:37:08
        
        As far as I can tell, there's no rhyme or reason to it. :-)
        
        I'm having my own weirdness which is that when I take down my diffusers, the lateral imaging seems to improve. I think it may have to do with the frequency and angle dependent diffusion of number-theory diffusers & wondering if more careful alignment can solve the problem . . .
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 17:14:55 10/05/17 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on October 05, 2017 at 12:29:57
        
        Here is the thing. With a planar this large that gives a very non directional sound - with the lights down low - it doesn't really matter if some of the sound is coming from the planar. Right now my stage is 17' wide of which 6' of that is the planar.
        The options with the room positioning are endless. I wish I knew more about the science.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 17:50:48 10/05/17 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on October 05, 2017 at 17:14:55
        
        Floyd Toole's book is a great resource -- to use a silly but apt clich�, useful to the expert but accessible to the general reader. And damn, I see there's a new edition, guess I'll have to upgrade . . .
        
        Still, the theory just never seems to get me very far with planars! There are so many things going on -- dipole pattern, crossovers, etc. -- that I end up surprised. Like right now. I've been playing with these speakers forever now, and suddenly, with no planning, I've found an arrangement that's everything I've been trying to achieve -- deep, wide soundstage with a solid center image, and most importantly, that palpable sense that the instruments and hall are actually out there when I close my eyes.
        
        And what did I do? Nothing, really -- the woofers are in a straight line, the mid-tweets a couple feet forward of them and about 6' off the wall, toed in to focus behind my listening position -- no acoustic treatment whatsoever, in a room that's too small and too live.
        
        First law of planar positioning -- when this happens, get some tape and mark the floor! Because guaranteed if you move them, it will never happen again.
        
        Toole, Sound Reproduction (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - Norman M 07:06:38 10/06/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on October 05, 2017 at 17:50:48
        
        I couldn't agree more. However I can save the tape for use in other ways since my Tympani's feet fit and fall into their impressions left in the carpet beneath them.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 09:24:47 10/07/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Norman M on October 06, 2017 at 07:06:38
        
        That's handy! Been debating a rug for this room, but it wouldn't be wall to wall.
        
        I think what I really need is some invisible tape that shows up under ultraviolet light, that way I could find it when I need it.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - Satie 03:54:39 10/06/17 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on October 05, 2017 at 17:50:48
        
        That seems very promising, can you snap a photo of the successful setup?
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - Satie 13:07:10 10/17/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Satie on October 06, 2017 at 03:54:39
        
        The front wall needs some diffusion, but it needs less the further out the speakers are from it. You can get away without diffusion at 6ft or more.
        
        If you want something cheap then get some cheap plastic leafy garlands from the craft store and tape them to the ceiling a ft or two behind the speaker at the tweeter midrange line to the center of the front wall. 3 per side should be ample diffusion and has a limited footprint.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 18:33:59 10/17/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Satie on October 17, 2017 at 13:07:10
        
        Thanks. I had the panels back there for awhile and while they give a solid presentation and a sound that appears to come out of silence... it also seemed as if vocal wasn't projecting. Without them there just seems to be more resonance. I'll have to put on Getz /Gilberto and listen to the acoustic.
        
        I'm gonna have to lure someone over to listen and bring some diffusers , power cords etc... to listen to the diffs. Also hoping to get my Cary slp98p back online.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - Satie 01:12:31 10/18/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on October 17, 2017 at 18:33:59
        
        Lovely piece, the Cary.
        
        Do you have a good local acoustician who works with audiophiles? or a dealer who does lots of acoustic installations and tweaks?
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 11:03:38 10/18/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Satie on October 18, 2017 at 01:12:31
        
        Well unfortunately not really. I have someone that has a very high end shop 2 miles away (Wilson , Sonus Faber, Mac) .. but their idea and my idea of affordable differ. They actually have people purchasing the Wilson XLFs from them @ 200k. So a 20.7 owner?? lol. Well you get the drift. Put it this way. I could have got a great deal on the Stradivari for 35k. Pass.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - Satie 15:35:15 10/18/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on October 18, 2017 at 11:03:38
        
        I thought the big Sonus Fabers were very good, but the Focal Nova Utopia was better and had amazing bass - which was the only thing it did better than a 20.7. Neither of the speakers did as large a soundstage nor did they image more precisely nor provided an edge in depth vs. a 20.1, though they were also lacking some obvious issues in coherence and a few oddities in imaging.
        
        Having heard a couple of Wilson WATT/Puppy generations vs. large Apogees the panels were so obviously better I couldn't believe it sold off of demos in the next room at a higher price than a Scintilla.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 17:07:42 10/18/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Satie on October 18, 2017 at 15:35:15
        
        Thanks Satie. I love my daily affirmation!! :).
        
        I'll tell you, with the 20.7 - the only thing I quibble about is my room placement.. seating position... and diffusion possibilities. It's like you have this masterpiece and you don't want to screw it up!! Not that us audiophiles are obsessive compulsive about these things. Haha.
        
        And you are right - I need to get my Cary back into the mix. I've been concerned about shipping. I have someone about 60 miles away that does repair - but then I wonder if they would handle it properly. Seems like my power supply went south.
        I also plan on re-tubing it ..
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 13:59:51 10/07/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Satie on October 06, 2017 at 03:54:39
        
        OK, just took some new shots -- it's hard to convey the actual angles and distances in a phone photo. Here's a panorama from the side:
        
        Panorama notwithstanding, the bass panels are actually almost in a straight line, there's a slight cant but it's exaggerated in the picture. And here's one I took from listening seat in an attempt to show the angle of the mid-tweet panels:
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 12:04:08 10/17/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on October 07, 2017 at 13:59:51
        
        I would think the bass out of this setup would be ginormous?? Yes?
        
        I experimented with something today.... I have 4 GIK 244s from a prior setup... and I had them evenly spaced on my front wall... And yes I know, people here preach diffusion...diffusion...diffusion..... So I pulled them out and put them along the side walls at first reflection points in front of the speakers.....
        
        For reference ... the 20.7s are currently 5' out from the front wall....my room has nice carpeting.... and the ceiling is absorptive as well with heavy duty sound proof type ceiling tiles... And what I find when I pull these absorption panels out is that the vocal seems a bit less recessed.... has a bit more attack ...and has a bit more sparkle - if that makes any sense... Everything is pretty much like that - not just the vocal....
        
        I'm not sure I am going to put them back.... I guess the question is - naked drywall for the front wall - or absorptive panels? I am trying to figure out what I have lying around that I could test diffusion..... I have no trees... or books..... hmmm....any ideas are welcome for a test to see where the sound signature would go.... thx. Tim.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 19:34:15 10/17/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on October 17, 2017 at 12:04:08
        
        This is very very weird. It will accept these messages, but when I try to send my original reply (much longer) it says there's no text!
        
        Anyway, time to head for bed, just wanted you to know that I did write a reply and that I'll get it to you somehow . . .
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - josh358 19:33:02 10/17/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by timm on October 17, 2017 at 12:04:08
        
        Damn, don't know why but it keeps giving me an error message when I try to reply to your post . . .
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - Norman M 08:01:42 08/30/17 (14)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on August 28, 2017 at 17:28:56
        
        "... (Just heard that Jim Winey is using three 20.7's for three-channel stereo, so I envy him even more..."
        
        At times I wondered about such a speaker configuration. With listeners fussy about dialing in speaker location within inches and less, reflections, seating position (e.g.,'head in a vice', etc.) how can a listener place an asymmetrical center channel speaker without causing lopsidedness for any of the three frequency ranges (B, M, T)? I might consider putting a 3.6 between my IV-As for a 3 CH front, but in addition to the speakers being different wouldn't some of their sound have to lean more heavily toward one side? Maybe an answer is that it doesn't doesn't make much of a difference.
        
        RE: Tanks - josh358 11:32:05 08/30/17 (13)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by Norman M on August 30, 2017 at 08:01:42
        
        I'd wondered about that too and assume it couldn't be done. But Wendell assures me that it works fine.
        Using a 3.6 sounds like a great idea. I gather the key is the Bryston processor, with the settings Wendell has developed. I'm sure he'd be glad to pass them on.
        Be really curious to hear if you try this. I've heard Magnepan 3 channel twice, the tri-center at the factory, and the three-channel MMG demo at last year's Newport show. In both cases, the center image had a solid quality that was a big improvement over the standard stereo phantom image. The images have more depth and more palpable localization. It's hard to go back to two channel after that, the center image just doesn't sound right anymore.
        Wendell says though that three channel doesn't work well with many current studio pop recordings -- it seems they're essentially mono to boost loudness, with some tricks played to make them sound like they're stereo, and that the three channel setup reveals that. For those, he finds its better to listen in two channel. He's planning to post a white paper about it on the Magnepan site.
        
        Edits: 08/30/17 08/30/17
        
        RE: Tanks - Norman M 15:08:48 08/30/17 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by josh358 on August 30, 2017 at 11:32:05
        
        Josh, thank you for that information. I'll be looking forward to reading Mr. Diller's 'white paper' on this subject. Perhaps after that I'll have run out of any reason for not summoning up the courage to try it.
        
        White Paper - josh358 06:03:08 08/31/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by Norman M on August 30, 2017 at 15:08:48
        
        Wendell just emailed to say that the three channel white paper is up:
        
        http://www.magnepan.com/betterthanstereo
        
        RE: White Paper - Davey 08:06:15 08/31/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: White Paper posted by josh358 on August 31, 2017 at 06:03:08
        
        That's a white paper??
        I would like to know much more about how it works so I can duplicate it with DSP processors I already have and not spend $10k to add one more channel to my stereo system.
        Dave.
        
        Edits: 08/31/17
        
        RE: White Paper - josh358 18:01:17 09/01/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: White Paper posted by Davey on August 31, 2017 at 08:06:15
        
        AFAIK, it's just Pro Logic II with discrete class A electronics and a separate analog power supply, so nothing you couldn't do yourself. But I could be wrong. I do know that Wendell says it works better with the Bryston than with other processors, for reasons unknown. At one point, Bryston was talking about repurposing some of their older SP-2 processors as dedicated tri-center units. Used SP-2's seem to go for about $1200.
        
        Too bad there isn't a more economical solution for those who want to experiment . . .
        
        RE: White Paper - Norman M 11:50:49 08/31/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: White Paper posted by Davey on August 31, 2017 at 08:06:15
        
        My interest in the 3CH front is mainly being able to hear the 3CH Mercury Living Presence and 3CH RCA Living Stereo (hybrid) SACD releases in their original 3CH format. Those three channel recordings were converted to 2 channels to produce the redbook stereo CDs.
        
        As I read the 'white paper' it seemed to deal exclusively with the Magnepan/Bryston Tricenter system which 'reinforces' 2 CH stereo recordings, enlarges the sweet spot and renders stereo recordings more 'engaging'.
        
        RE: White Paper - josh358 17:52:07 09/01/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: White Paper posted by Norman M on August 31, 2017 at 11:50:49
        
        Always wanted to hear those in 3 channel . ..
        
        RE: Tanks - josh358 16:30:29 08/30/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by Norman M on August 30, 2017 at 15:08:48
        
        I know I wouldn't be able to resist. :-)
        
        Hell, I'd go three channel in a moment if it weren't for this damn projection screen. I've heard Wendell's demonstrations twice, and it just sounds better. If I had a bigger room, the screen could come down in front of the center speaker, but for now it just isn't practical (not to mention that I still have so much work to do on my existing system).
        
        Anyway, Wendell does this as a labor of love, they don't make anything off the processor and there isn't exactly a huge market for single Maggies, so I'm sure he'd be delighted to help out.
        
        RE: Tanks - timm 12:00:47 08/30/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by josh358 on August 30, 2017 at 11:32:05
        
        I will say this.... I am completely not interested in 3 channel stereo matrixed for the center.....
        
        I had a 5.1 system once -- and the thing I hated about it was the fact that at every position - a speaker was present.... The thing I like about stereo - is the fact that music comes out of 'nowhere' ... and that to me is the 'priceless' thing about it.... Having a speaker there - ehh- so what - of course you hear something there.... you have a speaker there!! That just doesn't do it for me - and is what turned me back to stereo.... a great choice... :)
        
        RE: Tanks - josh358 12:09:09 08/30/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by timm on August 30, 2017 at 12:00:47
        
        Heh, never thought of that, but you have a point -- there's something cool about the sound coming from nowhere.
        
        I'm intrigued by the BACCH system, which has come down in price ($5000 if you already own a Mac) -- that uses head tracking, crosstalk cancellation, and HRTF compensation to make a center channel unnecessary and the reviews I've seen say it's the most convincing stereo anyone has ever heard. Not sure how it would work with Maggies, but if it did, it would give you the effect you want -- music coming from nowhere (and in this case extending beyond the left/right speakers because of the crosstalk cancellation).
        
        RE: Tanks - timm 13:50:22 08/30/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by josh358 on August 30, 2017 at 12:09:09
        
        I thought this is what carver did w sonic holography back in the late 70s
        
        RE: Tanks - josh358 14:14:16 08/30/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by timm on August 30, 2017 at 13:50:22
        
        It is in part, but Carver's was a primitive implementation from before the days of DSP. Newer implementations use recursive crosstalk cancellation with calibrated filters; active head tracking, so they can adjust the crosstalk cancellation to the position of your head; and head-related transfer function compensation to compensate for the effect of your head and ear shape on localization. So essentially a new beast.
        
        Ambiophonics does much of this on the cheap, along with some things that BACCH doesn't do:
        
        http://www.ambiophonics.org/
        
        But it does require that you push your speakers much closer together (BACCH obviates the need by using head tracking and HRTF compensation).
        
        RE: Tanks - zulugone 11:50:35 08/30/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by josh358 on August 30, 2017 at 11:32:05
        
        Does 3 channel mean using a designated center output (5.1, 7.1) or some how summing stereo left and right into a single center speaker? Would the center Maggie be vertical or horizontal?
        
        RE: Tanks - josh358 12:03:24 08/30/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks posted by zulugone on August 30, 2017 at 11:50:35
        
        Magnepan has shown several configurations.
        
        They all use a Bryston processor. Wendell Diller, Magenpan's marketing manager, says he's had better results with the Bryston than with other processors.
        
        Beyond that, they can be --
        
        Magnepan's standard center channel speakers, which however don't give the sense of height of the left and right since it's designed to be located under a projection screen.
        
        Their Tri-Center system, which uses a combination of their standard center channel CC 5 speaker and two of their MMC-2 on-wall speakers, one on either side of the screen, to restore the sense of height and otherwise improve the image.
        
        Any combination of three standard Maggies, from MMG's (they had a very impressive three-MMG setup that I heard last year at the Newport Beach show) to Jim's 20.7's. These of course aren't compatible with home theater.
        
        RE: Tanks (nt) - timm 19:09:54 08/28/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Tanks (nt) posted by josh358 on August 28, 2017 at 17:28:56
        
        Haha. I do like it. But one night I might get crazy. I put the measurements and my position in there with the pic for suggestions like this.
        
        So if I use more toe in - the image gets more diffuse? It would almost seem the opposite as the speaker is more directed at the listening position. Unless I am not understanding?
        
        I mean right now it feels like a 16-17' wall of sound. But I am all ears. Sorry couldn't help
        
        Dang Getz Gilberto sounds sweet.
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 08:10:18 08/04/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on August 04, 2017 at 06:46:56
        
        this is awesome josh ... thanks... tim.
        
        RE: ears to bass - timm 16:27:38 07/28/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: ears to bass posted by Norman M on July 28, 2017 at 09:48:25
        
        Let me explain a bit. I felt that I was not getting the bass response from the speaker that I had heard it give in previous demos. So - figuring maybe it was the room - I got on the floor and listened to the bass panel about a couple inches away and 'thought' maybe it should be louder. Over time I have felt that has changed. And this is exactly what the review in the absolute sound said. I am not one to give a lot of weight to reviews. But in this case he was spot on. Doing the same thing today I find the mid and bass panel both resonating lower frequencies - and that of course is also heard in the listening position. My opinions are about THIS model and In fact this particular pair.
        
        I will say - my room does bring out minor diffs. It's a good sounding room (needs some improvement) but definitely I find it easy to pick out changes.
        
        Now I have new cables - but if you don't really believe in a physical diaphragm changing its ability to move because of bass notes over time - you certainly aren't going to buy into cable break in??? :). All I can say is what I am hearing.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - Satie 19:14:36 07/23/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Norman M on July 23, 2017 at 10:17:15
        
        You don't get to have the full tonal balance of the speaker till you are farther away but the low bass will sit on your room modes so you will hear those everywhere in the room but for null modes in particular locations. So listening for particular areas of the speaker playing at typical room modes like 40hz and 30 hz is not reflective of the output of the one speaker. That is something you can only hear at higher frequencies. Otherwise you would need to place the speakers outdoors. The point is that the tonal balance you hear at the speaker is different from the one you hear at the seat.
        
        RE: Ears to bass - timm 14:12:08 07/22/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ears to bass posted by Satie on July 22, 2017 at 13:26:54
        
        Yes. Good idea. I will get pics together and post.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 10:19:00 07/22/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 22, 2017 at 09:47:11
        
        I think it's a matter of extension more than volume. They'll go deeper. Then, once they've limbered up, you can try moving the panels and/or your listening chair to get smooth bass and optimal extension.
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 11:12:58 07/22/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 22, 2017 at 10:19:00
        
        Thanks. I am going to periodically going to need help from my online therapists. :).
        
        Here is what I know. They do sound remarkably better than my logans right now. However, do not sound as good as when I demo'd them 2.5 years ago. I know there is more to give and am just anxious to get there. And along the way the psychosis sets in. Is it my amp? Is it my room? Or do I just need to be patient and let them run in for 300 hours.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 13:58:17 07/22/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 22, 2017 at 11:12:58
        
        LOL, welcome to planar setup land. :-)
        
        Things will get better, I promise, but planars are the very opposite of set and forget -- they're actually more independent of room acoustics but more dependent on setup than other speakers. And at some point, after you've seemingly tried everything, you'll find a position where everything just gels.
        
        Mark it with tape when you do! Otherwise, you'll lose it and drive yourself crazy trying to get it back again.
        
        There are just too many variables -- distance, separation, toe-in, tweeters in and out.
        
        I'd use the time while your speakers are breaking in to experiment with position. Usually that ends up pretty conventional -- speakers pointed at you, 60 degrees apart or somewhat less, out as far as you can from the front wall up to 10' or maybe even more, side wall distance less critical maybe a couple of feet. And within that you can push them back and forth (and your listening seat) to tune the bass, maybe try HP's rule of thirds.
        
        Then, when you have an idea of where you want them and they've burned in, you can fine tune the room's acoustics, e.g., if they're too bright, add some absorption, or use diffusion to deal with slap echo if the absorption is already where you want it, etc. Bass in particular is very room dependent and since speakers can only be designed or a nominal room they could end up with too much bass or bass shy, in which case Wendell recommends using a DWM to tune bass levels. (Actually I think all bass should be equalized, you just can't get it right otherwise, even with bass trapping.)
        
        Anyway I think the point is that it's to be expected that the sound will improve as you tweak the setup and they burn in, so nothing to worry about. I'm still playing with my IVA's, it's amazing how much the sound varies with position.
        
        RE: Here you go - timm 07:27:26 07/23/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 22, 2017 at 13:58:17
        
        Yes I have experienced similar with my Martin logans but not to this degree.
        
        The sound is definitely changing. Things are getting 'gooder'. :). Interesting as voices seem to start to come more forward a bit and other things that may have been in the background are starting to pop out to the front (cymbals , drum hits ). You know... more cowbell? :). Without moving or changing anything. But that does make sense.
        
        Odd as it may be - I am more critical listening to acoustic and or rock as the problems just are easier to identify for me. With the symphony the soundscape is so vast and everything just seems to sound great to me.
        
        I will get pics. For reference- I am running a ps audio directstream directly into my sunfire signature amp in a 17x30 room. Speakers are currently around 10' from front wall. I have terabytes of hi res recordings that I am pushing thru the DS.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 10:11:29 07/23/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by timm on July 23, 2017 at 07:27:26
        
        I've wondered sometimes whether break-in didn't affect the midrange driver. My sense with the MMG's was that it did, but I was never sure. Hell, maybe even ribbon tweeters become more limber after they've flexed a bit?
        
        Pics would be great. 10' from the wall should be ideal from an imaging perspective, I envy you! That gives you about a 20 ms initial time delay which is typical of a concert hall and what you aim for when you build a studio control room with a reflection-free zone. Of course, you may still want to play with position, e.g., to tune the bass.
        
        More breakin - Satie 12:48:11 07/16/17 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: tick tock posted by timm on July 16, 2017 at 10:05:13
        
        Things sound like they are settling in nicely. Just don't expect that to get to the "steady state" performance any time soon. The speakers will continue to improve and the wire will break in slowest. So don't rush to conclusions as to ultimate placement and ultimate fine tuning. Try out the more outlandish placement schemes and use your son's young ears and experience with live acoustic music as a good guide to how well the system and placement are doing.
        
        RE: More breakin - timm 06:01:55 07/17/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: More breakin posted by Satie on July 16, 2017 at 12:48:11
        
        So at what point do you think things settle all in ? How long for mids. How long for bass? Although I know the mix of both really defines the tonality of everything. As it sits now I would say they do sound a little tipped up. Especially noticeable in the vocal.
        
        I know there is no difinitive answer and the cables could be part of it as well.
        
        Btw. The wireworld bananas really fit well. Really snug - takes a little effort but they go in and I do not doubt their contact. I have them lightly screwed down but really there is no need
        
        RE: More breakin - Satie 07:35:05 07/17/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: More breakin posted by timm on July 17, 2017 at 06:01:55
        
        The bass will settle into a very gradual loosening process that will take 400-500 hrs. The mids will make most of the distance to their long term behavior in 100 and a bit hours, but continue to get more dynamic and shift their tonal balance downwards for another 3-400 hrs. If you play a breakin disc then you will be able to cut the time to 1/4 depending on the playback level. My suggestion is that you use music and play with placement and more exotic positioning like Rooze and Limage to gauge what they do and wait for the fine tuning phase. Try out a broad spectrum of music in "exploration" mode. That way you will not be bothered by the shifts in how your "standards" come out as the speakers etc. break in.
        
        RE: More breakin - timm 08:06:56 07/17/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: More breakin posted by Satie on July 17, 2017 at 07:35:05
        
        well I do have the Bach organ works that I can use.... but this is great information (as always)....
        
        Right now - it is like I am hearing glimpses.... Really want to hear the mids warm up a touch which create a 'rounder' vocal.... Don't get me wrong - they do sound really good right now ... I have just heard them better - and I think my room is pretty good..... So patience is the key..... Also symphony - as always has sounded just spectacular... I don't know how these speakers get that 'presence'.... but they do...Its not like listening to a reproduction...
        
        I really like the setup right now in the room... (My wife says 'its stupid'.... hahaha.....) but this is a dedicated room ... and the feel of it somehow.... got really high end - at least for me...
Congrats - emailtim 17:33:57 07/02/17 (1)
Congrats and keep us posted. You will have to give Grant a jingle for some proper stands once they arrive.
- RE: Congrats - timm 17:50:08 07/02/17 (0)
  I'm broke right now. LOL.
RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - Skeepowder 15:50:13 07/02/17 (3)
Man you guys ruined everything. I thought my totally rebuilt IIIas were the shit as in good shit. Now, I feel naked and afraid.
Mac MC7106, Krell KAV-250a, Krell KAV-500, Maggie MG111, ADS 810 & 780, Pioneer SC-1522, Dahlquist 903, AR 1
- MGIIIA - grantv 09:00:36 07/04/17 (0)
  One of the best Maggie bargains out there if in decent shape.
- RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - timm 17:06:34 07/02/17 (0)
  Be afraid. Be very afraid!! Haha.
  
  I have never heard the IIIAs. Congrats on the rebuild. Very cool.
- RE: Tick tock.....20.7s - Travis 16:13:34 07/02/17 (0)
  LOL!
  
  "If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Ah, I remember... - grantv 14:26:47 07/02/17 (6)
I remember waiting for my 3.6's to arrive from Edmonton, had the same somewhat excited, almost anxious feeling. And the wait was obviously worth it (upgrading from IIIA's at the time). Soon your wait will be over and you'll be one fortunate cookie.
- RE: Ah, I remember... - Utley1 20:08:42 07/03/17 (0)
  And a happy 150th to you!
- RE: Ah, I remember... - timm 14:46:30 07/02/17 (4)
  i still can't believe I did it. And am waiting ...wondering ... if this is going to be as magical as when I heard them Dec 2014- in my house ... in my room ..on my system. :)
  - RE: Ah, I remember... - vinylheathen 14:04:21 09/05/17 (3)
    Update!????
    - RE: Ah, I remember... - timm 14:56:42 09/05/17 (2)
      Well I'm visiting Napa right now. I do miss my Maggie's though. :). Will give an update when I get back. But pushing the kit back to where the speakers are made a nice diff
      - RE: Ah, I remember... - vinylheathen 18:45:47 09/05/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ah, I remember... posted by timm on September 05, 2017 at 14:56:42
        
        The 20.7s would be a dream for me.
        
        I heard them at a dealer with all Ayre electronics playing SACDs and it was perhaps the best sound I have ever heard from a HiFi.
        
        RE: Ah, I remember... - timm 18:56:47 09/05/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Ah, I remember... posted by vinylheathen on September 05, 2017 at 18:45:47
        
        I absolutely love them. Every night is an incredible journey. I have purchased a lifetime of memories. Priceless.

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