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Any information on the MMGi?

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RE: MMGi - Davey 08:06:46 06/28/17 (27)
To me, it's disrespectful to their customers for Magnepan to not offer any information regarding the later versions of their speakers. I can understand companies not wanting to divulge proprietary information, but that's not what this is, IMO.

Their position about not "engaging in sales hype" is a non sequitur. The whole thing comes across as a silly promotional attempt.
I can understand the condescention to "reviewers" (since many don't have a clue) but I don't think that should extend to their customers and potential customers.

WHAT would be the problem if they simply told everybody they switched to a series crossover and altered the component values for the MMGi?

My goodness.

Dave.
- agreed - mbnx01 10:40:49 06/30/17 (26)
  Magnepan is a very, very odd company.
  
  I'm not saying they're a bad company.
  
  But they do have some strange ideas about how to sell hi-fi gear.
  
  "To Learn Who Rules Over You, Simply Find Out Who You Are Not Allowed to Criticize."
  
  -Voltaire
  - Got a note from Wendell - josh358 09:05:52 07/01/17 (25)
    Josh,
    Please pass this on. Thanks
    
    The complaints are much the same every time we improve a model. Our position has been stated many times before. From the 1.7i web page:
    "In past model improvements, driver changes and factory retooling were extensive. It is rare when improvements can be made that are audible in a blind test and do not require a major investment. So, in view of this good fortune, we chose to pass on these small improvements rather than save them for a 1.8."
    The price of the MMGi indicates that the changes were not expensive. If the technical details were impressive, we might be tempted to brag about them. But over the long haul, passing a blind test is what helps to sustain a new model. Nothing we say matters much when the customer sits down to hear the speakers.
    
    Edits: 07/01/17
    - 80% of the potential buyers can't compare them - OldNuke 20:01:10 07/03/17 (14)
      In a galaxy far away and a long time ago, your city or the neighbor city had a dealer that carried multiple brands and had them setup for comparison listening appointments and walk-ins. That fantasy ended sooooooooooo long ago.
      Buyers depend on reviews, published stats and return policies now. Not stating what you improved and how you did it compared to the last iteration is just _ (fill in your own adjective, mine are all insulting so I won't put them in).
      
      I own MMG's. Love them. I would be interested in what the next level of upgrade did and if it was worth selling the current to get better. I'm probably not alone. Not publishing any information on the new line is just stupid and hurts the company bottom line and more importantly, the current customer and the future customers. There's a lot of this kind of hubris where I live and work, they all flare out and fade away while customer forward businesses continue to expand.
      - RE: 80% of the potential buyers can't compare them - DrChaos 20:34:07 07/03/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 80% of the potential buyers can't compare them posted by OldNuke on July 03, 2017 at 20:01:10
        
        If you go beyond MMG, don't bother with MMGi, go up to at least .7 or higher.
        
        The MMGs are good, but limited.
      - RE: Here you go - josh358 20:28:47 07/03/17 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: 80% of the potential buyers can't compare them posted by OldNuke on July 03, 2017 at 20:01:10
        
        Interesting point. I suspect that Wendell would say that it's the sound that sells Maggies, that you just can't sell people on big planars unless they hear them. Which is the reason they have the MMG program, to give people a taste of what the planar sound is all about, so people will check out the larger models.
        
        The problem is, if they were to announce the technical specifics of what they've done -- we went to a series crossover, added damping, what have you (I have no idea myself, just repeating some speculations in this thread), what would it tell people about the sound?
        
        I mean, we already know (and Magnepan makes no secret of) the main differences between the MMG's and .7's and 1.7's. Things like larger diaphragm area and baffles for deeper bass and higher output; taller, for better imaging and again higher/lower distortion output; all quasi-ribbon design (and true ribbon when you move up); super tweeter in the 1.7. And it's no secret that as you move up, the have more bass and output and definition and dispersion. But what does any of this do for you, by way of telling you whether you should trade in your MMG's and spend the extra money? It seems to me that only listening can tell you that -- or talking to people who have listened.
        
        So while I'm all in favor of disclosing more info I don't know how much effect it would have on sales. Maybe I'm wrong and they should have a more conventional website that brags about their technology and ropes in some customers that way, but it definitely is at odds with their philosophy.
        
        RE: Here you go - Satie 08:22:49 07/04/17 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 03, 2017 at 20:28:47
        
        I think the problem with Wendell's approach is that the dealer network has worn thin and many have nowhere to hear a maggie. So specmanship and technology as well as reviews will be what brings the customers. Who then need to actually make an effort to find a dealer from whom to buy from.
        
        Most of the potential buyers will never see a maggie in real life outside of the accidental visit to a friend who happens to have a maggie. They don't have a dealer nearby and they don't go to shows. That means that seeking an audition is an effort and without exactly those marketing hype promotions the potential customer will just not get a reason to make that effort.
        
        Wendell should make the effort to push some promotion and get the speaker line reviewed in Stereophile. Measurements and all.
        
        RE: Here you go - pictureguy 10:05:52 07/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Satie on July 04, 2017 at 08:22:49
        
        San Diego Maggie Dealer is GONE.
        Rents got 'em and they moved to a 3 or 4 room 'closet' for the closeouts. OLD storefront, maybe 50 yards away had been converted into a Church. The old storefront also had 6 or 8 well-appointed sound rooms, reasonable staff and and Viable USED gear / Consignment areas.
        I paid 'em a visit and bought the Grado Headphones I've wanted for late-nite listening.
        GONE:
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: Here you go - pictureguy 10:04:53 07/08/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Satie on July 04, 2017 at 08:22:49
        
        San Diego Maggie Dealer is GONE.
        Rents got 'em and they moved to a 3 or 4 room 'closet' for the closeouts. OLD storefront, maybe 50 yards away had been converted into a Church. The old storefront also had 6 or 8 well-appointed sound rooms, reasonable staff and and Viable USED gear / Consignment areas.
        I paid 'em a visit and bought the Grado Headphones I've wanted for late-nite listening.
        GONE:
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: Here you go - Satie 12:06:58 07/09/17 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by pictureguy on July 08, 2017 at 10:04:53
        
        Know that one. All 3 dealers I used to frequent are gone. only one made it through the 2008 crash and they flubbed later. What is left is the high society North Suburban area in our "metro Columbus" where the current audio salons are - nearly an hour out of town. The near downtown University district home to OSU was the center of audiophile activity 20+ years ago with 3 dealers and a dedicated vintage shop. Millenials don't live in the "posh" suburbs but near downtown, and those who do live in the high end burbs are stranded in their parent's basements.
        
        The demographics of the top burbs are very boomer and many would have downsized had their basements not been occupied by student loan broke underemployed kids- about just under 40% of millenials. Downsizing is not really in the cards for these folks and many would not retire even if they could afford to.
        
        RE: Here you go - pictureguy 13:59:27 07/09/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Satie on July 09, 2017 at 12:06:58
        
        Speaking of Basement-Living 'millenials' with huge student debt?
        
        40% + want somebody else to NOW pick up the tab.
        
        I'm retired and owe nothing on my house. And if push comes to shove? I'll go for some kind of Reverse Mortgage (boy, are those things evil or what?) and let the relatives fight over the bones when I'm room temp.
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: Here you go - Satie 14:31:55 07/09/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by pictureguy on July 09, 2017 at 13:59:27
        
        Sounds like you read the book "Die Broke".
        
        The Millenials got a bit of a raw deal on their education costs and extremely weak career guidance. Many went into areas where their education is unlikely to give them an income edge high enough to cover the cost and the delay in onset of making a wage. In many cases the job market response was to require a college degree for semiskilled positions that never needed them before. So the kids end up very underemployed and we have a "skills gap".
        
        RE: Here you go - BDP24 18:17:01 07/08/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by pictureguy on July 08, 2017 at 10:04:53
        
        With the boomer generation downsizing (many selling the house they raised their family in), and needing smaller speakers to not overtake their new smaller places, and with younger music fanatics not into high performance gear at all, not even aware of speakers like Maggies, I'm surprised Magnepan sells as many of their speakers as they do. I would say, in spite of everything, they are doing something (in fact many things) right. Let's all wish them continued success!
        
        Edits: 07/08/17
        
        RE: Here you go - pictureguy 23:46:20 07/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by BDP24 on July 08, 2017 at 18:17:01
        
        Ever been to a high end show in a LARGE venue?
        Demographics are overwhelmingly male.
        Mostly 50years + Some with Hearing Aids, which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
        30 and under are probably no more than 20% of the attendees. Female certainly not even 10%
        A strong showing by ESL (English as a Second Language) Asian Men, all very neatly attired, some with wives or GirlFriends.
        
        Unless the base is broadened, many companies will survive only thru Merger / Acquisition or simple DownSizing.
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: Here you go - Davey 21:29:00 07/03/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 03, 2017 at 20:28:47
        
        I just don't think some posters are understanding the point here.
        
        Yes, the MMG is a teaser model designed to attract folks to the larger models. Yes, the larger ones sound better. Yes, only listening really matters. Yes, it might not increase sales. Etc, etc, etc.
        All of those reasons are irrelevant regards disclosing technical information regarding the upgrades.
        
        More information for customers is nearly always better. Some customers might not care.....some might not understand the specific technical information.....some might not this, some might not that..... BUT, at least they have this information available to them to better inform their decision.
        I still can't figure out why somebody would send their beloved speakers (and $500) to Magnepan for a mysterious improvement that Magnepan will not reveal the specifics of.
        
        My goodness.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 06:43:23 07/04/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Davey on July 03, 2017 at 21:29:00
        
        I agree that the black box approach has not gone over well.
        
        It's as if a car manufacturer refused to tell you how many cylinders their car has, and said, the only thing that counts is performance, take the car for a test drive -- and on top of that, there weren't any dealers in most of the country at which you *could* take the car for a test drive.
        
        At the same time, I understand Wendell's point. A lot of stuff is sold using specsmanship or bragging about materials and tech. "Micronized rodent tongues, lapped to within a millionth of an inch, damp resonances in the low-infrasonic region . . . "
        
        So while I do agree that they should return to releasing this basic information, and think that they're unnecessarily causing friction with some of their most loyal customers, I don't think that kind of info does the person contemplating an upgrade a bit of good. If anything, it might mislead them because of the power of tech lust.
        
        I mean, we know that they added a damping strip to the 3.7i. From an engineering perspective, that interests me, but what does it tell me about whether the upgrade would be worth $500 and shipping? Nothing. Even if I saw the measurements they wouldn't tell me that.
        
        I'd either have to listen (preferable), read a review (good if a reputable reviewer but in my experience anyway only about 50% compared to listening), rely on scuttlebutt, or just trust that Magnepan wouldn't have made the upgrade if it hadn't been worthwhile.
        
        RE: Here you go - OldNuke 21:23:14 07/03/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 03, 2017 at 20:28:47
        
        Hey Josh,
        Hope you find the bug affecting your subject line, that's got to be frustrating.
        But you voice the situation as it currently sets, a set of circular logic. I can go by what's available in reviews and opinions on what to upgrade or go by the sound. But the "sound" isn't available. Sound can't convince me since I cannot go anywhere to hear it.
        Technical specs can do a lot to let you judge improvements. If I was told that the MMGi (or .7 or bigger), increased the treble I currently hear, it gives me a reference to set my expectations. If told the bass goes deeper than current, I can compare it to bass tones I have (since I added a sub) and have an idea what the "new" Maggies sound like.
        Everything is subjective and dependent on the system but to put out an "upgrade" and not put out the improvements is a problem area to me and pushes me away from being a repeat customer.
        
        Thanks for reminding me - josh358 07:20:22 07/04/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by OldNuke on July 03, 2017 at 21:23:14
        
        I have to contact the Asylum since the subject line bug is at their end.
        
        As to not mentioning the improvements, I agree. I understand their reasoning but the fact is people want to know before they spend their money.
        
        However, I don't think the kind of information you're asking for is all that useful in practice. Why? Because if someone says "better highs," I still don't know whether the highs are better enough to make an upgrade worth it to *me.*
        
        That's so subjective. I remember forex that when the 3.7 came out, you had some guys upgrading from 3.6's and they were all saying wow, that's a worthwhile improvement, and then someone else who upgraded and said yeah I an hear the difference but it isn't worth the expense.
        
        So how can you make that judgment for people? Most people agree when a speaker gets better. What I think we can't say is how important an improvement is to somebody and whether it's worth it to them -- $500 means less to Bill Gates than to someone with a middle class income.
        
        I can hazard a guess though that you'd be pleased with an upgrade. I don't know about the MMGi since no one has heard it and my own experience is kind of lopsided, I haven't heard the .7 or even the 1.7, just the MMG (which I owned) and various other models. But both the .7 and 1.7 got rave reviews and Magnepan has a 30 day home trial now and says they'll pay you $100 if you return them! So that shows a lot of faith in the upgrade. (Website says the offer ends 7/1 but you could ask Wendell what the current status is.) And I think they do say that the 1.7i has deeper bass (it's in the specs on their website) and better highs (it has a supertweeter -- the MMG beams because the tweeter is wider). (In practice though since you hae a sub the bass extension isn't going to be that important to you, the sub will still go lower -- it might allow you to reduce the crossover point for better blending between sub and Maggie.)
        
        If I were you, I'd take advantage of the trial offer which is their way of dealing with situations in which customers can't hear the product.
        
        Believe me, I'm constantly in this situation myself these days, so I empathize -- I don't live near a dealer anymore so all I can do is listen to reviews and recommendations and then try something out. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, and I really wish I'd had a chance to listen first, though it isn't the end of the world, if you don't like something you can always sell it.
    - My guess what they did: - DrChaos 20:01:38 07/01/17 (1)
      No fancy materials, no unobtanium. There was enough technical discussion given: no new tooling. What does that exclude? Changes in the wiring on the panel. Changes in the magnet structure. Changes in frame (the most expensive part of any speaker). Probably new part inventory (other than cheap passive XO components) is ruled out too.
      So it means adjusting materials and processes which are already standard.
      Given that, what could make an audible effect?
      My guess.
      They changed the tensioning and mode control buttons (which are critical in a panel design), and adjusted the crossover to compensate. And maybe stuck some of that fabric behind the tweeter (somebody saw that difference between a 3.7 and 3.7i).
      
      Edits: 07/01/17
      - RE: Here you go - josh358 09:26:45 07/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: My guess what they did: posted by DrChaos on July 01, 2017 at 20:01:38
        
        One of those damping strips seems possible. Not only would it provide more damping but I wonder if the central location of the strip doesn't reduce diaphragm dishing a bit?
        
        I'm not sure that they have much leeway to adjust the tension and buttons -- I've noticed that the resonances are tuned to a musical scale and I'd guess nominally A440 tuning. I assume that this is to prevent the resonant sections from causing pitch shift which would sound discordant. So it's all basically set by the size of the driver and baffle, which determines the equalization curve they have to aim for.
        
        I like Davey's guess about a series XO -- after all, they've gone to it on the rest of their line. Other obvious changes like a supertweeter would help but I doubt that they would spend the money on that since the MMG is their budget speaker and has to be kept as affordable as possible.
        
        BTW, does anyone know if the .7 has a supertweeter like the 1.7?
    - RE: Got a note from Wendell - Norman M 10:14:08 07/01/17 (7)
      "Nothing we say matters much when the customer sits down to hear the speakers."
      
      It matters to anyone trying to sell their non 'i'-ed model, whether or not anyone sits down to hear the speakers. It also seems to matter to a customer having recently purchased a speaker without an 'i', but has to spend $500 plus 2 way shipping to get that 'i'. Which following a 3.7 could turn out more costly than a MMG with/without an 'i'. That doesn't seem to be of any concern to Magnepan. (I own a MMG, whose re-sale value is now diminished. It might be better for me if it were called something other than 'MMGi'.)
      - Wendell - josh358 10:34:39 07/01/17 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Got a note from Wendell posted by Norman M on July 01, 2017 at 10:14:08
        
        I don't think they can stop making improvements because people have older models. Don't you think the old models would lose even more value if they changed the model number, e.g., to 3.8? The fact that there will be new models seems to me a given when you buy electronics.
        
        I thought that it was nice that they gave current owners the ability to upgrade (though I don't know personally whether the difference would be worse the cost and the hassle of shipping them).
        
        Also, Magnepan really doesn't change their models often compared to many companies and as we know (since both of us have 35-year-old speakers!) the differences between models are incremental so they retain good resale value.
        
        RE: Wendell - Davey 12:09:07 07/01/17 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wendell posted by josh358 on July 01, 2017 at 10:34:39
        
        Josh,
        
        You've missed the point.
        
        Certainly Magnepan should not stop making improvements to their designs. The question is how much (if any) of those improvements should be divulged to the customer base.
        
        I thought I was very clear on that point with my first post.
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 13:29:32 07/01/17 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Wendell posted by Davey on July 01, 2017 at 12:09:07
        
        I got your point, I was replying to Norman's post which seemed to raise other issues. As you know, I'm very much in the camp that says they should release some specifics when possible (e.g., not proprietary info), because this seems to me an unnecessary sticking point between Magnepan and some of its most loyal customers.
        
        One thing I can tell you knowing Wendell as I do, this isn't just a marketing gimmick. He personally despises the kind of wet dream advertising that sells products on the basis of technology and specs and believes that the only thing that really counts is how the product sounds in a blind test. This is very much a part of their corporate philosophy -- they won't ship anything that doesn't improve sound in a blind AB test. It's I think one of the reasons they have such a good price/performance ratio -- rather than just throwing tech in, they use it only if it makes a significant improvement in the sound of the speaker.
        
        Still, I'm not enough of a purist to claim that I'm not interested in what's under the hood. :-) Hell, I just got an AHB2 because I was fascinated by the design approach -- feedforward technology used in an attempt to get Class A-level performance from a low-bias AB/Class H design. (I'd say they've been partially successful -- it's probably the cleanest amplifier I've ever heard, it makes the A21 which is already high bias AB and has a great distortion spectrum, sound coarse and thick by comparison, but it seems to have some dynamic problems on piano -- still ABing it with the A21. One thing it's taught me -- those low-level distortion products really are audible as I'd suspected and despite the hoary experiments that say they shouldn't be.)
        
        RE: Here you go - Davey 21:24:02 07/01/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 01, 2017 at 13:29:32
        
        Josh,
        
        Yeah, I got you. I don't think it's a marketing gimmick either....but it looks that way in certain aspects.
        
        Once again Wendell has responded with an answer to a question that wasn't asked. Oh well.
        
        Don't let any firecrackers set the house on fire.
        
        Cheers,
        
        Dave.
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 09:27:46 07/08/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Davey on July 01, 2017 at 21:24:02
        
        LOL, didn't happen. I try to keep the windows closed on the fourth, that being one of the reasons. :-)
        
        RE: Here you go - Green Lantern 17:36:45 07/01/17 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by josh358 on July 01, 2017 at 13:29:32
        
        Isn't it a bit misleading representing them as 'ribbon speakers' when in fact they're quasi-ribbon?
        
        And if it's a "hey relax; it's no big deal, get over it" -why not call the entire line of Maggies ribbon speakers?
        
        RE: Here you go - josh358 18:16:39 07/01/17 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Here you go posted by Green Lantern on July 01, 2017 at 17:36:45
        
        Magnepan is usually scrupulous about that, so I'd guess it's an oversight.
idk, but for some reason Magnepan is calling them 'ribbon' speakers - Green Lantern 20:40:20 06/25/17 (0)
not 'quasi-ribbon' as they're known to be but 'ribbon'..in fact twice on their website no less.

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