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136.1.1.170
Hi all....
So I will be having two systems in the near future.... I have Martin Logan Odysseys - which I just can't sell.... because my wife says they are 'her speakers' now.... and will be getting a pair of 20.7s for 'my speakers'.... I have created a dedicated listening room (as you are all probably aware of as I have droned on about it for quite a bit) for the Mags....
So this gets me to my question... I currently have a sunfire cinema grand signature which I use on my Logans.... The plan was to use it on the 20.7s..it doubles down @ 4ohm and it has an initial power rating of 425/8ohm load... I have heard it is an A/AB amp with a power supply that essentially moves with the signal request..... Just as background...
So - I will need another amp.... and I will wait till they get here - and I can test it out... but wondering what you do in the 2500-3K range... I have seen PrimaLuna Dialogue 7 monos for decent used prices... but don't know if they would do it with the Maggies.... I think they might for the Logans - the secondary system.... but I hesitate as I would like flexibility - and want my money to go towards the best system possible (the Maggie system).... My mind justifies things in an odd way... because I start thinking... Well, lets suppose I looked for some used Pass amps .... uhhh - that would be like a 3K discount on them.... if I chose them as my primary amps and let the sunfire sit with the logans....
Opinions are very welcome.... thanks... tim
Follow Ups:
In that price range are unfortunately are out of the question running 20.7 if you listen at realistic levels.You could however easily run tubes with 20.1s bi-amp'd. I run a pair of Quicksilvers (200 watt monos, $3k used per pair) and a pair of Emotivas (1K watt monos $2K used).
But even at 200 watts per side the Quicksilvers are pumped keeping up with the mid/tweeters. Throwing in the bass panels within that mix isn't something I'd want to do.
Edits: 05/11/17
Is the Quicksilver the V4?
Yes, V4s; the base is simply a ironwood cutting board I found on Amazon.
IKEA sells a number of kitchen cutting boards, made of bamboo. Really cheap!
Thanks GL. By base I meant of the amp itself---the V4 has a beautiful chrome plated metal one, the RM-200 a light wood one.
Man, that is one beautiful looking amp! Rather similar to my Music Reference RM200, but with a chromed metal base instead of a wood one. GL, do you know the model number? 200 watts out of four (what appear to be) KT88's?! Roger Modjeski supplies tubes to Mike, and speaks highly of his designs and products, a rare endorsement from Roger :-).
The Rogue Apollo is somewhat successful in driving 3.x in conjunction with a subwoofer.
But to power a big maggie in single amp with tubes you need more like 400 watts min. Which brings you to the really big VTL Siegfried and Wotan and large Audio Research double decker amps. Or older Manley power houses. The biggest new Carver amps too are possible options. But there are other very large power amps from smaller manufacturers.
the VTL MB-450 provides that kind of power. An early version like mine can be found for around $4k.
Yes, that is a good option, though still outside the OP's budget.
It did occur to me to look into thing like the early 90s triode switchable giant amps from Melos. Backed up by a good tube repair/mod shop these are great deals for high power tube amplification.
This "savings" model has sent many of us into penury. All very familiar.
The Sunfire is a strong performer so beating it requires an investment of some size. The Sunfire 600
and the Magtech shootout point to the Magtech being a better choice but at a steep premium. Sorry I didn't keep the URL and didn't find it in my quick Gsearch.
Power wise, the A21 is not stronger than the big Sunfire, but it is somewhat more refined.
There are quite a few options we went over earlier but they come down to you going to something very old or to a value brand (another we didn't mention is the W4S 1000 monos that many planar owners like). The Gilmore Raptors are another value priced class D with a good reputation driving planars, I think Al Sekala was a fan-boy for them.
Thanks Satie. I appreciate the input. And I got a good laugh out of the 'savings model'
pen·u·ry
ˈpenyərē/
noun
extreme poverty; destitution.
"he died in a state of virtual penury"
synonyms: extreme poverty, destitution, pennilessness, impecuniousness, impoverishment, indigence, pauperism, privation, beggary
"Dylan was oblivious to his brother's wretched state of penury"
Why not buy an Odyssey Khartago for your son, recover the amp you gave him for the MLs, and use your Sunfire on the Maggies? Total cost maybe $1000. Penury avoided.
Hahaha. Now that is not a bad idea!! I think there is going to be some synergy with the sunfire amp and the Maggie's. Just a hunch.
My response was as much for your edification as his.
My pair drives the heck out of Sound Lab U-1s!
Well. Let me explain a bit more. The scenario is really do I keep the sunfire for the Maggie's and get something cheaper for the secondary system. Or get something better for the Maggie's leaving the sunfire in the secondary system ?
With this audioholic mentality I could consider the delta between the cheaper amp and more expensive. So as an example... I need an amp. If I bought a better amp for the mags I could justify a 2-3k savings by not buying the cheaper amp for the secondary system Hence if I bought a 5k amp the delta is 2-3k.- and that is my real cost as I need to buy an amp anyway. :). Am I the only one here that uses this logic?? Haha. If you follow !!
Hi Timm -
In my recent Q&A with Roger Sanders He touched upon two subjects which maybe helpful in your search :
My Tube Preamp @ 600oh compatibility with the Magtech Stereo Amp : Quote:
roger@sanderssoundsystems.com
Feb 21
Hi Will,
I designed my amplifiers so that they are compatible with all preamps. Tube preamps often present a problem when driving solid state amplifiers because tubes are inherently high impedance devices. The laws of physics dictate that the impedance of the source (the preamp in this case) must be lower than the load impedance (the amplifier). Ideally, there should be at least a 1:10 ratio between the two, so the amp should have an input resistance that is at least 10x higher than the preamp.
Transistors typically have low impedance while tubes have high impedance. As a result, there is often an impedance mismatch between tube preamps and solid state amps.
To solve this problem, I use FETs (Field Effect Transistors) at the input of my amps. FETs have very high input impedance similar to tubes (about 10 megohm). I stabilize the input impedance with a precision resistor to 100 Kohm. That way, even a very high output impedance tube preamp will have no trouble driving my amp.
I make this high input impedance available through the unbalanced RCA input in my amps. The balanced input has a much lower input impedance of only 1 Kohm, which would be unsuitable for most tube preamps. The balanced input will still work with the 600 ohm output impedance of your ARC preamp, but it is not ideal. You would get much better results using the unbalanced input with its 100 Kohm input impedance.
- Question, Magtech driving my 3.7i and, 2 each DWM :
Hi Will,
Based on the schematic drawings you provided, I would expect that the first configuration would be the best for am amplifier. This is because the impedance will be higher than in the second configuration where you have the two speakers wired in parallel.
Maggie speakers are 4 ohm (actually closer to 3 ohms). When you wire them in parallel, the impedance is halved to slightly less than 2 ohms. That will require a huge amount of current from the amplifier and will stress its output transistors and power supply quite severely.
My Magtech amplifier is able to drive a 2 ohm load. In fact, it can drive a 1/2 ohm load. But it would prefer a higher impedance if that is an option.
In short, you can wire your DWM panels either way. I suggest you try it both ways and see what sounds best to you. If there is no significant difference between the two, I would recommend using the first configuration. But if you like the sound of the second configuration the best, then you can use it as the Magtech will be able to handle the more difficult load this presents.
Great listening,
-Roger
I finally have a system that yes, it's true , I/C choices and Speaker cables do in fact dramatically change the presentation owning to it being neutral rather than warm (which I previously thought I prefered ), starting with the Magtech - Oh the lovely, finer , entertaining details within the arrangements.
Thin sounding - Look to the associated gear or choose wisely down to the wires - I enjoy and could be satisfied with this Aurender A-10 alone as source / pre , and not for once think the system sounds thin without this ARC preamp available .
I would readily recommend the Magtech based on the many great reviews and so many happy users on our forum. But it does not fit the budget even used.
I used to own one, and it worked spectacularly with everything I threw at it - from Maggies, to Genesis box speakers, to Soundlab electrostatics. Oh, they did really well with Gallo Nuc Reference 3s too! :)
Certainly should be available well below the stated price range.
At that budget on the used market there are the Parasound Halo A21 and the Sunfire grand, the large multichannel amps from Lexicon and Theta (Dreadnaught) particularly if you are looking to biamp in the future, the big classe mono amps, a pair of bridged Classe DR9. The old Threshold and Krell mono class A amps. The Emotiva monos also fit the bill and leave you some change.
If you want power to be a non-issue then a Crown Macrotech 5000HD or a predecessor will always have power on hand, sounds better that the linear ones. Should be available used within your budget. If you are a mezzoforte player, then you would be better off with something less powerful and more refined sounding.
The Pass amps that are sufficiently large are also too big for your budget. Of the class AB pass amps I think you could do with the 250 models. But you will tax them when playing loud.
I will tell you the way the sunfire is designed - makes adding any bass panels .... DMW... Tympani - whatever .... a piece of cake....
I just might find this amp to be 'dreamy' with the mags.... It seems to have all of the attributes that people mention... high power... high current.... I can hook up multiple ways to either give a warmer presentation or not....
It will be a fun ride....
My conundrum comes in because I will have these two systems - and it would be 'nice' .... if they were both great... yet different..... and then it becomes ... Do I want to go the extra mile - and get a BETTER amp for the Mags.... as opposed to spending my money on an amp for the Logans..... But - then the cash will be severely limited when I purchase the big boys.... I 'gave' an amp to my son .... which would have worked for me on the logans.... but he wanted to start a system with MMGs ..... and well... you know how that goes.... :)
I know what I would get, and actually may: Sanders Magtech.
You know re: the Magtech.... it reminds me a bit of the Sunfire I guess... I have heard real conflicting reports on it.... 1) the Magtech made my speakers come alive....bass was great... 2) I thought the Magtech was a bit thin sounding.... I have seen both of those comments multiple times on it... which I find odd...Maybe its a preamp matching issue.... and I have seen someone mention that Roger built his with 100K ohm impedance....to help match up with his tube pre.
They could both be right -- or neither -- since there's no reference! All we can say is that one amp has more bass than the other.
This is driving me crazy in my current amp comparison, an A-21 vs. a Benchmark AHB2. They both sound different -- but which, if either, is right? :-|
I've read many great reviews of the Magtech, though.
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