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In Reply to: RE: Maggie's room vs other dipole posted by timm on April 01, 2017 at 19:44:24
The downside to full range dipoles is that they need plenty of distance to the front wall. Unlike box speakers, which are wall loaded to increase bass by placement near the front wall, planars cancel out more bass as you approach the front wall. Planar dipoles are wall loaded by placement by the sidewalls. With a hybrid the bass requires different wall distances than the planar section. This allows closer placement to the front wall and the planar section's performance can be maintained by wall treatments on the front wall.
The main problem we have in determining placement for a planar dipole is that we can't get the rules for box speaker placement out of our heads. So we keep planning out how the speakers should be placed as somewhere near the front wall and away from the sidewalls. While dipoles do best when far from the front wall and are friendly to the sidewalls where the output is nulled..
Follow Ups:
So I agree with the close to sides far from rear.
I also have 'tweeter in' (to the inner edge, rather than tweeters toward the outer edge)
I basically took the speakers and placed them with the 'tweeter in' so the tweets in the same place as if 'tweeter out' (placing the tweeter in the same exact position.. So my whole speakers are a few feet wider apart.)
Isn't it funny how the tweeters just need to be at the right distance to the sidewalls whether oriented in or out. and the rest of the speaker can be where it does best for bass mids and imaging. it is also fairly consistent at something like 32".
Satie. I know you have spoken ad nauseam on the topic , but I enjoy it every time.
Might I ask - what would anybody consider the appropriate distance a 20 series should be inside to inside? Tweets on the inside... My room is 17' wide - but regardless of that - if room wasn't an obstacle how far apart do you think... 9'?? They are so big it is tough to imagine.
After 18 months of experimenting with T-IVa in my new 24 x 17 room I am still astounded by their ability to provide center-fill in their current tweeter-out position with 12' 6" spacing between the ribbons. This leaves roughly 24 inches to the sidewalls. Panels are pulled almost 6 feet off the front wall and listening chair is about the same from the back wall.If you so choose Timm, the 20.7s should offer the same possibilities for that extra-wide soundstage and the 30' length will provide even more options for stage depth.
Enjoy the placement process when they arrive!
Edits: 04/02/17
Yep, I should have added that observation as well. On my TIV/Neo8 setup on the long wall I got the tweeters as far as 15 ft and change apart. The center image did not fall apart.
Truly part of the journey. :)
Generally the idea is that you first see how the central image holds as you pull the speakers farther away from each other. The farther out from the speakers you sit the farther the tweeters can be. In a 17' room the speakers and a minimal gap to the wall fill up nearly 6 feet, leaving you about 11 feet to play with, which in the common 10-13 ft listening distance comes out to you normally not having a limit on how far apart the speakers can go.
The next issue is how you like your soundstage presentation - wide vs deep - and thus the listening angle. The standard stereo placement is a 60deg listening angle on an equilateral triangle. I prefer getting a closer up presentation with a wider angle to favor a front of the hall perspective.
So - I know this is just me - getting anxious.... but I have an empty room and so what I did was put the couch in the seating spot .... and have my spots marked for the speakers etc.... and here is where I am at....
Room: 17x30 with a pesky pole.... pole located about 4" on the inside of one Maggie in the null zone.
Speaker placement - 10' from front wall... 18" from side walls.... 10' of space - inside to inside of speaker... tweeters in.
Rack: I'm thinking in between speakers in null zone as well.... just don't know if I can get speaker cable that long... or I should say 'pay for' speaker cable to put it to the side wall.... I'd probably need 15'.
My head: seated at the 21' mark of the room with 9' behind my head..... 11' from speaker plane.
I have a bit of flexibility.... but this will be the initial plopping down spot.... For the first time in my life - I have a rectangular room with speakers equidistant from walls etc...
It will be interesting....
Try this with your Logans.
1st place a chair at the back wall about so you are listening at about 2 ft from the wall, centered on the axis between the speakers. Leave the Couch where it is.
Then pull the speakers along the sidewalls forwards by small increments, away from the front wall. Keep the distance to the sidewalls constant. If at some point the soundstage "clicks together" mark that spot and continue with this till you hit the halfway mark or the enhanced soundstage effect breaks down. There is usually at least one narrow region where it works and if you are lucky you might find a second one with a somewhat different tonal balance.
Place the speakers back at the spot you marked where the soundstage was best, and start working out the tonal balance with the speaker controls and by wall loading of the bass; moving the speakers towards and away from the sidewalls.
Then work out the degree of toe in. Logans usually require some toe in while maggies often don't need any at all.
See how that compares with your current setup.
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