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In Reply to: RE: Quads and Cat posted by Satie on December 24, 2016 at 14:18:16
I think the comparison is just fine. I have had PK USA monitors still have PK ESLs and now Beveridge Electrostatics.
I'm very familiar with the Magnepan MMG, 3.7 and 20.1( another beast) .. I still prefer what quads can do especially considering the complexity and cost of amplification for Magnepans if done correctly.
Tedtag enjoy your Quads, PK does great work. I've got his latest thinking in materials on ESLs done a few months ago here--- and they are fabulous too. You can get off the train now. Not much better you can do in a PP tube amp than the CAT. Enjoy! The Maggie lovers outnumber us! :)
Follow Ups:
Depends on what you want to do, doesn't it? Satie is unlike most audiophiles in that he prefers to listen at natural levels. And I've personally gone with big Maggies because for me, they offer the best compromise between the impact of dynamics and the transparency of stats, with line source imaging and excellent power response and tonal balance. But it really depends on what kind of music you listen to, how loud you listen, budget, room size, etc. -- I don't think there's one solution that's best for all.
Hi AJ. Any idea what PK has done to improve his speakers even more? Thanks.
PK rebuilds the panels to better than new- better finish, better tolerances, etc; and he uses the original diaphragm coating material, which is rare stuff. To the best of my knowledge, Wayne is the only one using this special coating.
He also usually puts in a zener protection circuit, so you can feed your Quad with a real power amp. He rebuilds the high voltage bias circuit using modern, quality parts. He may replace some other parts, too, there are some capacitors etc in the circuit that he might replace with new / better ones.
His stuff is great- but it is STILL Quad ESL- which are some of the very best sounding speakers ever made, and his systems don't lose any of that.
Quite frankly, my perspective is from the disgruntled ESL lover who just never got his output requirements met. Had I a chance to get enough output out of a Beveridge that is what would be in my listening room, as it is the best imaging and tonal presentation I have ever heard. So what is missing in the bottom end can be filled with subwoofers.
The other thing, as you have obviously noted since you run beveridge ESLs is that the spatial presentation of a tall line source is different from a point source like the Quads or conventional boxes. .
Thanks again Satie and AJ! This is all great information and I really appreciate the chance to talk about it on this forum and get your thoughts. I love the trial and error part of the discovery process with switching components and I'll admit it...... I enjoy messing around with audio gear just about as much as listening to music. I'm sure that statement would be considered sacrilegious in some circles, but to me its just fun to swap gear and see what happens.
I will say that its highly unlikely that my 3.7i's will ever find their way back into this system. As the Quads have settled in during the last few days, everything has gotten much better, particularly the overall cohesiveness of the system. The Quads with the CAT electronics are just fantastic and I really doubt if I'd ever break them up again. The last few days when I've woken up in the morning, I feel like a kid and run down to turn the system on, then start flipping records. Every record sounds new and different with lots of information I just never heard before.
But I can see a day not too far down the road, where I find a pair of 20.?'s and shoe horn them into the sweet spot of this system; just to try them out. Then I'd even like to set up the 20.?'s in the Giya system when that comes together in a couple of months. That system will have CAT Statement amps that are being built now with either my CJ GAT2 with CJ Premier 15 or the CAT Legend depending on what sounds best. The front end will be a TechDas 3 with Graham Phantom Elite arm and the new TechDas cartridge or my Koetsu Blue Lace tracking the grooves. With all that gear I'll be able to have regular shoot outs between my Planar speakers and the Giyas (or other dynamic speakers) with all kinds of different electronic configurations, tube or solid state.
As crazy expensive as all of this is, I'm pretty convinced that the only way to really audition a piece of equipment is in my own system for several months at a time. I've been to many shows and several dealers who were kind and generous enough to allow me to hear their demo systems knowing the chances I would buy were pretty slim. Then, I've heard a few super systems set up in other kind and generous folks's own homes. Its rare to find a really good sounding system and impossible to sort out all the variables and think that system would sound just as good in my own house!
That is some pretty serious gear you are playing with; congratulations. The Giyas are one speaker that may sway me from 'stats. However, I have not yet gotten tired of the Beveridges that I restored.
Absolute ear crunching volume levels are not important to me. The perspective of , essentially floor to ceiling line source, is certainly compelling -impressive and can be quite life like. However, what the Quads do well will be hard to beat over the long term even with Magnepan 20.___'s
Any electrostat will be a compromise or an offering of a different perspective and I will include the Soundlabs in this as well. I like what Electrostatics do well. I wouldn't trade your Quad set up for Magnepans-my choice for the illusion- especially when you will have Giyas coming in.
It is all a compromise regardless of how much time and money you put into it. The illusion that pleases you is the correct one. I know what PKs work is capable of and no stock Quad can compete. His latest work includes some materials that at least on the ESL tweeter panels takes things to another level IMO.
You have killer amplification on that system that will bring the best out of your Quads.
Thanks AJ and I really appreciate your feedback! It was so amazing how natural it was to have the CAT JL7's matched with the Quads. This has changed my whole perspective on speaker / amp matching and how important it is to get right. Lots of amps can drive lots of speakers but a good (perfect!!!) match like the Quads and CATs just sounds so effortless and like I've said; like having no system at all. I've mixed and matched my Quads and Maggie's with CJ Prem 8's, Carver 305's, NuPrime R20's, CJ Classic 60, and the CAT JL7's. Nothing even comes close to the Quads and Cats.
Not to mention the CAT Legend preamp. Before I bought that wonderful piece, I had a CJ GAT2 in the system with great results. Phono preamp was a CJ Premier 15 that had been back to the factory for all CJ's latest phono preamp upgrades and I was told by their Tech that its about as good a phono preamp as they can make.
But IMHO the Legend clearly beat the GAT2 in lots of ways that really matter. These are both companies that have spent the better part of the last 30+ years fine tuning their preamps. Please don't take this the wrong way because the GAT2 sounds great, with excellent tonality, detail, dynamics, imaging, etc. If it wasn't for the CAT, I would be pretty happy with the GAT2 for a long time. But, where the CAT Legend really shines is in its overall presentation. There is a continuity to the soundstage that sounds like real life. Its rare to hear sounds from a recording through the Legend that seem like they are coming from one of the speakers. The CAT presents a 3D wall of sound where even the space between notes has musical meaning. The music is suspended in a silent, but energized background, where the notes are distinct from the background but also part of a natural whole. The CJ preamp just doesn't get this in the same way.
Anyway, with things sounding good, its probably about time to mess it up, but this round I'll just be toying with cartridges. Right now I've got a Koetsu Blue Lace that sounds fantastic. But next week I'm supposed to take delivery of a TechDas cartridge supposedly made by the same folks who build the Air Tight Opus1. This cart is earmarked for the TechDas table that is not set up yet, but it will be interesting to put it up against the Blue Lace even installed in my VPI Signature/ 3D arm. I talked to Bob Graham yesterday and he thinks the TechDas cart will be a good match for the VPI/ 3D so can't wait to try that out! And it should give that Blue Lace a little anxiety......Vinyl purists please stand by for that report.
I wrote up a longish post in part as a reply gone rogue about turntables and planars. It is not an appropriate reply any longer, and I don't know if I will get around to rewriting it for the planar or vinyl asylum as an independent post.
Anyway, the Techdas TTs (which one did you get?) and the VPI 3D arm have a fabulous reputation, as I am sure their cartridge will obtain if the buzz is justified. Do tell us
If you want to read my little write up PM me and I will email it to you.
Thanks Satie. The table I picked is the TechDas 3 with the Graham Phantom Elite arm. From what I've heard from reliable sources the TechDas folks did a pretty good job of engineering a lot of the features from the crazy expensive TechDas 1 into the 3 and at half the price. Plus there is the point of diminishing returns where I felt an extra $50K for the difference just wasn't worth it to me.I also figured that if I went for the best cartridge match possible and obsessed over setup, then the difference in tables would be even less. Then I read that some people who really know the TechDas tables believe that none of the 3 tables they make is any better, just different, and the 3 is supposedly a little "faster" in digging information out of the grooves (whatever that means???). Faster seems like a good quality for the type of sound and listening I enjoy. If more speed equals more detail then with Planars and/or hopefully the Giya's, the TechDas 3 should be a good choice. Guess I'll find out!!! When I heard the TechDas3 with the Graham arm and a top of the line van den Hul cartridge at Axpona with the Cat JL7's and Marten Coltrane 3's the sound was absolutely stunning. There was a wooden flute on a record that produced one of the most amazing sounds I've heard; ton's of air and texture and completely compelling in its delivery. It still haunts my memory to think about it.
Plus I liked the feature on the 3 of having multiple arms and will probably add at least a mono cartridge in a separate arm. There's something about the sound and textures of those 50's mono recordings that's just wonderful and I'd really like to buy a lot more mono recordings and explore that whole world. And of course to me, the TechDas 3 just looked really cool, being sort of a shallow person who cares about appearances...... Not that the 1 and 2 don't; they look pretty stunning as well.
I'd really like to read your post mentioned above and will send a PM a little later. Thanks and Happy New Year everybody!
Edits: 12/31/16
"Faster" would probably mean that it has good transient response and lacks overhang, good things for most of us. Definitely sounds like a great design. Just waiting to see them manage the price down. But I am curious for sure. So the VPI 3D stays on what looks like a VPI classic?
My setup can't quite do what you described with that wood flute recording. Still some things to do on the preamp and the mid/tweeter amp is going to be substituted with an 805 SET with the feedback loop removed, when it becomes possible.Also looking for the option of a non feedback parallel KT150 or KT120 SET - someone is making them in China and I am looking for Western reviews.
I get what you say about the critical role of a well executed preamp. My modster friend finally finished his non feedback preamp and it took replacing the Van Alstine Dyna PAS' power trannies with new Edcors ($500) taking up 4 times the space, and added choke and separate filament power supplies. He transitioned it to the basic Herran circuit with no feedback and a single gain stage - down from 3 he started with.Desite this, his power supply box can't contain all the giant film caps and the preamp section is full of foil caps so he had to hang the trannie and choke outside the chassis of both the PS and main box.
Right about the VPI Classic Signature with a 10.5 3D arm. This is a Fantastic table btw and to do any better I felt I really had to make a pretty big leap to the TechDas 3 price range. The VPI table stays in the current system with the JL7's and Quads. I'll probably end up with the GAT2 back in that system and put the Legend with the Giyas. At least I'll try that combination before anything else.
So its Quads, CAT JL7's, GAT2, Premier 15, VPI/3D arm, Koetsu Blue Lace in the Planar system and Giyas, CAT Statements, CAT Legend, TechDas 3, Graham Phantom Elite arm, TechDas cartridge (Air tight mod) in the dynamic system. I should have the dynamic system up and running in about 2 months. I have some more construction work to do with the new dedicated room all of this will be going in. Then I'll spend months dialing everything in all over again for the new system! In the mean time the Quad system just keeps getting better as it settles in. This will be one heck of a shoot out and could be sort of a revelatory experience about top of the line planars vs dynamics. Can't wait to get it all set up.
On another note...... With the Quad system, I have all my cables (power cords and interconnects) elevated on Shunyata cable lifts, except I didn't have enough lifts for the power cords to the Quads or the power cords to the JL7 amps. Well, I found some more older generation Shunyata lifts sitting in a closet and put them in the system and wow what an immediate difference that made.
An entire layer of glaze that I did not know was there just disappeared! This turned out to be a serious tweak in my system for whatever reason because I thought the system had already reached maximum transparency. With that glaze removed, a lot more detail is coming through, and it just draws you into the music even more. I'm hearing things on recordings that I had no idea were even there. The piano peddles, chairs moving, lip smacking, breathing, etc that I had not heard before. I did hear some of that before, but I'd say its more than doubled. And all of that means more music as the detail just draws you in. Totally compelling and who would have known if I didn't try those lifts.
Interesting work by your modster friend Satie! Sounds like some serious internal surgery on that preamp. Way past my entry level knowledge of this sport. Good luck with your preamp mods too and hope all that works out. Also, I'm still processing your post sent PM and will be back on that later this weekend. Take care.
From what little I understand of it, the lifts are supposed to do two things - restrict vibrations coming from the floor and remove the asymmetry of the dielectric field (air above, floor below) so that lifting the cables reduces dielectric losses and lets the cable designer's deliberate balancing of cable properties to work in reality. Most of us don't have the electronics and speakers that would reveal the effects. In my case the bass cables are long but the mid/tweeter cables are just short of 3 ft. and touch the floor for a short distance. Besides which, my room is too crowded for cables not to be a tripping hazard as the speakers are in the middle of the room. Put them on lifts and it is assured to be a disaster..
Maybe its a cumulative thing as well. I already had my speaker cables and power cords to my subs up on lifts with good results. But when I also lifted the power cords to the Quads and power cords to my CAT amps, there was a whole new level of improvement and it wasn't subtle or hard to hear. It was plain as day; as if a nasty layer of glaze had been wiped clean.
The only cables left to lift in the entire system are the 2m interconnects from my preamp to the amps and thats going to be a little tricky. These interconnects run through a space that's under my 450 lb equipment rack so I've got to get behind that beast and find a clear route around the sides where I can set them up on lifts. I've studied it and there's a way. Now I just have to find the inspiration to do it!
Maybe next weekend..... But I've got to hear what if any difference it makes to have every single power cord and interconnect off the floor. If this last change adds anything like the power cords to the Quads and amps, I just can't imagine how good it will sound. :^)
I cold not agree more regarding your comments about CAT. I have the kind of budget version of your system. I'm using an SL1 Renaissance to feed Acoustat servo-charge amps, which in turn drive my Acoustat Monitor 4's. You are absolutely correct when you say that the amp/speaker matching is crucial. Although I can't imagine the JL7's being a bad match for virtually any speaker. The Acoustat servos were, as you probably know, purpose designed and built to drive electrostatic panels and IMO it don't get much better in terms of amp/speaker matching. I'd love to hear your setup with the JL7's driving your Quads. I have a real soft spot for ESL's in general, but have always been very fond of Quads. I'll bet it sounds marvelous.
Thanks Sondek and appreciate your feedback. The first high end speakers I bought back in the 80's were Acoustat 2+2's but never had them set up right and was using a NAD amp to drive them. Not the best...... Wish I had those speakers back again!
Sounds like you've got a terrific set up and the CAT Renaissance is a great preamp. With the Legend a big plus is the built in phono section that takes up half the inside of the chassis. When I opened it up I could not believe the meticulous hand work to get all that in there in such a well organized fashion, but that's how all the CAT gear is built. I told my step son these CAT components are heirlooms that should never be sold, like a fine hand crafted watch.
Happy New Year tedtag,I have a client who is purchasing a pair of Soundlabs U-1Px Consummates from me. She may have a pair of Acoustat 2+2s for sale. I know they were recently repaired and they are working but I have not heard them. She is a very keen listener, trained on the violin like I am.
If you want them I can make recommendations for ancillary equipment for you. Or, you can hear the new SoundLabs in my appointment only Salon.
We are in New England. Contact me by email if you would like to like to take the next step or explore your choices and options.
I have returned to the Asylum after a long hiatus so if I breaking rules I don't intend to!
Thanks,
William Juch
Best Sound Only LLC
Edits: 01/01/17
Thanks William and I appreciate the info about those 2+2's. Right now I'll have to pass on the Acoustat's; although I do have very fond memories of my old pair! The Soundlabs however have always been fascinating to me and I'd love to hear them in a really good set up. If I happen to be in New England and you didn't mind a visitor to hear them, I'd be interested in stopping by. My step sons are in Boston so we get to be in your neighborhood a couple of times year. If you wanted to send me a PM with more specifics I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
Ted
"Its rare to find a really good sounding system"
Isn't that the case! The sad thing being that often the difference is just a bit of tuning. This can't be done effectively at shows (though I've seen some valiant attempts) and dealers aren't always much better. I admit too that I'm a dipole snob -- planar/ribbon, electrostatic, or even dynamic, they just have a level of realism that I've never heard from a box, no matter how good. I find that it takes quite a bit of experimentation and tuning before I get the kind of sound I want, but it's a pleasure to hear my old Tympanis sounding better and better as I tune the system and the room -- when the sound takes my breath away, I know I'm heading in the right direction.
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