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In Reply to: RE: Seeking Advice - 20,1s, 3.7s, subs posted by Green Lantern on December 16, 2016 at 05:04:40
My room is a bit larger than Muggsy's given the third dimension (22x22x20) and the 3.7i easily fills this listening environment without any strain supported with the ULS-15 providing solid bass underpinning. Having the right amplification matters, of course (Sanders Magtech amp is a gem), but there are a number of great amps recommended for Maggies each with their own distinctive flavor.Naturally the 20.1 will provide deeper bass extension without augmentation, but probably won't go quite as deep as a good sub that's integrated properly. Of course, with the 20.1 having more cohesive top to bottom performance without augmentation, the extra oomph in the bottom octave may not matter.
Dollar for dollar I'm persuaded that the 3 series Maggies provide the best bang for buck, but I'm assessing this based on my own experience in a specific listening environment with all the parameters matched to satisfy my personal listening tastes.
It all comes down to an individual's hearing and listening preferences.
Edits: 12/16/16Follow Ups:
I never felt my 3.6 could in any way substitute for my Tympani IV-A. In fact I felt it to be rather 'wimpy'. (20 X 20 X 9 feet room). Bi-amping (active; 2-way Marchand or passive Magnepan XO-1 (7 Bryston 7BSTs + 1 4BSST did bupkes to improve matters.)
I've never heard the Tympani IV-A, so there's no reference point. The 3.7i doesn't sound wimpy to my ears in the system I've set-up, but they probably would sound thinner without the Hsu Research subwoofer. I consider that lower octave underpinning integral to listening pleasure. No amount of amplification, bi-amping and room treatments can make Maggies go lower than their design parameters.
Of course, your experience may be entirely different. I'm sure that our listening rooms are different and there's no accounting for individual hearing (your hearing may be far better than mine).
Although there might be a germ of truth in your comment about bi-amping, owning a 3.7i which natively can't be bi-amped, you are unable to read Magnepan's comment regarding same as seen in their 3.6R and Tympani IV-A instruction manuals. It's Magnepan's opinion that the advantage of bi-amping is "increased dynamic range and lower distortion", so there now you have it.
Perhaps needless to add, no listener in their right mind could think that bi-amping either the 3.6R or Tympani IV-A could make them go lower than their "design parameters".
Most likely my hearing is far worse than yours, since it's likely that I'm older than you are and have listening to one Tympani or another for nearly 50 years. My Tympani 1-Cs were virtually indestructible and during my early listening years, I played them quite LOUD.
I have no desire to get into a debate over the benefits of bi-amping, but it seems clear that Magnepan's research team implimented design changes they considered advantageous to the sound of the 3.7 making bi-amping either perfunctory or undesirable.
While the manufacturer suggests that bi-amping may offer advantages to earlier lines that allowed for experimentation, the benefits have to be evaluated on a case by case basis, taking into account the possibility of introducing less desirable variations in top to bottom performance that would not occur with a single source of amplification. That said, implimentation of any modification will determine it's value based on a range of acoustical factors, not the least of which is the experimenter's listening environment and hearing.
I've owned many systems over the years, only moving to Magnepan the last few years. I'd auditioned Maggies back in the late 90's (1.6) and was not moved by their top to bottom presentation. Given the associated gear and listening room that demonstration left me with an impression of sterility rather than musicality. I ended up continuing my quest settling on early versions of Gallo Reference speakers augmented with a massive Velodyne sub.
Fast forward 16 years. I was motivated to audition Maggies again (this time 3.7i) as my then current Gallo Reference 3A speakers failed to achieve engaging musical experience after moving to a larger home and availing myself of a larger livelier listening room.
After thoroughly auditioning a key selling point of the 3.7i was the speaker 's smoother top to bottom integration. This speaker wasn't designed for bi-amplification. Could the 3.7i benefit from it? I have no idea, but once installed these speakers didn't leave me wanting more or curious about missing potential. They integrate well in my listening environment with a well designed no nonsense sub that disappears into the sound field. Top to bottom musicality is reward enough.
Keep in mind that I'm not opposed to experimentation with this fascinating speaker line. Maggies have a well earned reputation with the hobbiest as being infinitely adaptable and I'd never criticize those who are confident that they can draw more out of them performance-wise.
For me though, it's all about enjoyment of music, and when fiddling is desired, making those adjustments through front end gear (tube rolling). I have no concerns about the power driving these speakers. The Sanders Magtech amp is ideally suited to the 3.7i ...a heavenly marriage of sorts... And the Hsu Research ULS-15 sub integrates well, in fact, much better with the Maggies than their predecessors.
Your system is quite impressive. I'm very pleased with mine. It may not be the best out there, but it makes me happy. I'm not a DIY'er or technically proficient experimenter. Of the two of us, you may indeed be the elder statesman, but unless you entered the world prior to Ike's presidency as I did, we can quit measuring.
Even before Ike served as President of Columbia University. So shall we therefore return to measuring, I think not. All I ever said was that my 3.6R always sounded wimpy when compared to my T IV-A (and under the same exact conditions). I never listened to a 3.7/i.
No offense was intended. You've got a few years on me, but neither of us were born yesterday when it comes to appreciating good audio gear.
I've never auditioned the 3.6R, but if you say they sound wimpy compared to your Tympani IV-A I have no reason to doubt your informed opinion. All I can speak to are those speakers driven by the associated gear I've mentioned in the listening environment described within the context of my own hearing strengths and weaknesses.
Again, no offense was ever intended.
Regards,
AuPh
I started my Maggie adventure with a set of 3.3's and now have 20.1's. Ive had the same sub with both, a velodyne DD15, which blends perfectly with the Maggies. I have also advanced into the world of bi-amping with the 20.1's, I am using a Magtech for the bass and an ESL for the mid-high.
I can say for sure B-amping made a huge difference, and since doing so I view having the sub as an option, but it still does make a difference I like to use the term it adds the floor to the music.Even bi-amping doesn't give you that bottom end that comes from having a sub.
Spot on! :-))
A conductor in Texas who I corresponded with a few years ago was biamping his 20.1s but felt the need to add a pair of subs, so he could hear the sort of meaty orchestral music he heard on the podium.
Having recently added subs to my 3-way Maggies I am loving - as you say - the extra floor to the music! :-)) 16hz organ tones are a revelation!
Andy
I am not sure if my hearing goes down that low. Do you hear that or do you feel it?
So many items in the house to stop from vibrating! :)
Well, yes, that's an interesting question ... and I can't give you a definitive answer.
The first time I played the 16 / 12 and 8hz (filler) test tracks on this Bach organ LP, I heard nothing - even though I could see the stylus wobbling explosively from side to side.
With the new subs, I can now 'register' 16hz ... I think it is a combination of actually hearing something ... and feeling it.
But it is sensational! :-))
Andy
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