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In Reply to: RE: Building a room for my Magnepans posted by TwoTurntables on February 08, 2015 at 17:05:14
Fortunately you did not do a 1:1 1:1.5 or 1:2 proportion so you will have less of a one note bass problem and can probably do a "Limage" setup if you wanted to.1.6 is a good proportion
I would put carpet on the concrete and not raise the floor on wood unless it is way too uneven. You want to have your racks spiked to the concrete and not have the wood flooring in the way. If you spike your racks don't spike the speakers or subs in order to avoid feedback - yes even on a concrete slab you can short circuit vibrations.Not a happy situation for turntables.
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Follow Ups:
I would put in the carpet, and you should definitely try the "Limage" setup; Satie got me and another inmate to try in when I had my listening room built--there's no looking back once everything is dialed in correctly.
Here's the view from my listening chair of the Limage setup.
Thanks Snapshot. I like your speakers.
I notice you also have plants/trees behind your Maggies as well........
Yes, fake trees...probably help acoustically, but I like the forest look as well.
Once again SS, I just really like your room...
Thanks
Mark
Thanks, Mark. It's been great, and I'm indebted to Satie for suggesting the Limage setup--would never have believed it could work the way it does.
In case you wondering...here is Uncle "Big Pimp-in" Sparky, from his listening position...this is my FB profile pick...Check out my package...
See the size of those Golden Ears...I can here moss growing...
Thanks
Mark
Ps. Hunter S. Thompson...Fear and Loathing in Coon Rapids, MN...
I clearly need more bling!
Thank you all for your input on this thread....
First off, What is the Limage setup?
Does anybody else agree with Russ69 that I should run my speakers on the long wall instead of the short wall??? This has me very surprised
No one seems to be in favor of the false floor/Wood floor?. this would be to help enhance lower bass frequencies..... Even my contact at Cardas said concrete floor then heavy pad then carpet and I should be fine.
So if I am understanding this correctly that I may be hindering my acoustic performance by using Roxull on all 5 sides of my room. So maybe roxull in the ceiling and just regular fiberglass in the 4 walls? I assume I would need to fill the walls with something or wouldn't they act of almost an echo chamber if hollow??
and to reconfirm guys, the only thing that will be in this room is my two speakers and a listening chair. All of my equipment will be on the other side of the wall. so my equipment rack will be on carpet/concrete not the false wood floor. and my TT will be mounted to a 2x6 studded load bearing wall.
There are a few threads about the Limage setup, much of them from one to two years ago. The setup relies on sidewall reinforcement for bass and a balance of reflections and direct radiation for enhanced imaging and was developed by a Maggie expert in Hong Kong.Mr. Lee who got the nickname and forum handle "Limage".
Generally the setup is on the short wall - and I believe that in all cases but for the largest rooms that is what you would want. The speakers are pulled 1-2 ft short of halfway into the room (40% of its length is a good start) tweeters in and facing dead forward. The speakers go 1 ft or less from the sidewalls and the seat goes near the back of the room (about 1-2 ft from the back wall).
There are detailed discussions of this setup. but the main thing is that when it works then you get a very wide and deep soundstage and significantly deeper and more powerful bass.
If your rooom is essentially empty then you don't need to worry about over absorption and overdamping the room's walls. My walls are just plain fiberglass insulation pressed behind wainscoting. Do use Roxull on the sidewalls but remember that planars have less "punch" since the backwave will cancel out at the sides so there is less concussive impact to the wall than you would have with a box speaker and higher absorption acoustic materials will not have as much benefit. If you intend to use subwoofers, the more efficient damping will come in handy. In any case you want to have SOME insulation in the wall space.
The wood floor is not going to make much of a difference so I just fail to see the audio reasoning for the expense. It may be less effective for coupling the racks and speakers to a large mass.
Since you have all this concrete are you sure you want to go with a low mass approach for mounting the TT?. The 1200 series do better with mass and damping below them. My 1600 mk2 is a suspended version which I modified so as to suspend the plinth (and thus the transformer) from the body (instead of having the body suspended from the plinth) and balance the body on the central point below the spindle over a slate tile and used small hardwood boards to keep the table from wobbling on the central support. This sits on a concrete slab on top of concrete pillars with a layer of automotive damping material in between.
Satie- Thanks for your input. I must say I am very surprised you knew I run a 1200 TT. You have quite a good memory my friend.
Interesting you mentioned the mounting of my TT….. I have pondered using the concrete to my advantage….. although I am not quite following you with your description. What if I poured a square platform off of my concrete floor perhaps 4-4.5' tall to mount my TT on??? Or if I had a steel platform fabricated that bolted to the concrete floor to give it more ridgity?? You have my attn on this I look forward to your reply.
Hey no magic memory, just needed to see if you are on a low mass (eg Rega) or high mass TT so I looked up your posts on the Vinyl asylum.
The damping is in between the pillars and the concrete slab which is the platform. The slate tile is on top of the concrete slab.
I don;t think you want just a volume of concrete. You can cast pillars in cardboard tubes - use a fiber reinforced concrete with gravel. You can build a concrete rack with this construction method using thick concrete 2X2 ft pavers and your own cast pillars or commercial concrete blocks. I cast my own pillars since I did not like the material in he commercial concrete shapes I could use at the local HD.
Attached is a link that explains it quite well...
When you have a shoe box room, it works exceptionally well...basically room coupling...
Slapshot, Wazoo, I believe Alan H. and myself have all tried it and do not see any of us going back...
My room is 12'-8" X 22', my speakers are 8'-8" into the room and 13" from side wall with the tweeters in, zero toe-in...sounds crazy, but it WORKS...it is room filling sound, with a soundstage I can walk around in...
As far as your room goes, my job is in the Precast Concrete industry and I have done several schools and performing arts centers...the combination of diffusion and absorption, with the majority emphasis on diffusion...we have done heavy stone textures out of Concrete on the interior walls for the diffusion element...
Yasuhisa Toyota, has done the Disney Performing Arts in LA and Kauffman Center in KC...I was fortunate enough to work on the Kauffman in KC, truly amazing acoustics, mostly achieved by diffusion...
I envy your project, as I am sure many on here do...have fun, keep us posted and enjoy the process...
Thanks
Mark
This works...
Thanks
Mark
Markman- Thanks for the pic. I wanted to confirm what I thought I was reading. I am definitely game for that setup of the speakers… I thought you all were talking about me putting my speakers on the long wall and frankly that wasn't exactly making me happy considering I started with a clean slate on this project and I decided on this size of room and then I was wondering if I messed up on the size of it……
Now I notice you have subs, I will not be running any subwoofers. Also I am putting all of my equipment outside of the room. I am doing this because it is my understanding that if there are items in the room it can throw off sound waves and alter soundstage. Even putting stuff behind my speakers can cause this, again this is my belief. I may a bit over the top with this approach? Or will I benefit from it in the long run??
Thanks again
Jim
Jim...
I have many posts on here about those damn subs...they worked on about 20% of music played, but for 80% they just did not blend with the 3.7's...
I currently do not miss them...
I have a pair of very expensive 6 meter interconnects to get my rack out from in-between the speakers. I did originally have this set-up this way...
As I transitioned to the Limage set-up, my rack ended up in the dining room of my very small condo...this was not ideal as far as flow in the living space. So I tried the rack in-between my speakers, much to my surprise, I did NOT notice a sonic difference...questioning my own ears, I had a good friend of mine come over and we tried it in both configurations. He confirmed what I was hearing, that there was no significant sonic change...he too could not believe there was NO change...This happens to work in my current Condo...I would not say this will be the results every where I set-up my rig...
As you can see, my front wall sucks...sliding glass door and a fireplace...I currently have 4 silk fichus trees behind each Maggie at different heights...along with 3" X 12" X 4' Sonnex foam panels in the corners and 3" X 2' X 4' behind the rack on the floor...IMHO, these silly fichus trees, make my terrible front wall work, added with the Limage set-up...
The top picture is of the .7 Newport Beach Audio show, notice the greenery?? Historically you look at Maggie show pics, they always have plants of some kind behind and in-between the speakers...diffusion once again...IMHO
Hope this helps...
Thanks
Mark
Markman can you please post a pic of your sound room so I can confirm what you are saying? That would be very much appreciated if you could. Thanks in advance
Jim
Yes, those are Mye Audio stands in a custom color, silver vein...
This set-up is something I would have never tried on my own, thanks to Sadie, I took a leap of faith and it paid great benefits...I will be relocating to in the near future...my current Condo/Townhome search is being based on a living room that this Limage set-up will work...how is that for drinking the Kool-Aid...
Thanks
Mark
This is a heads-up for those Maggie owners living in dry winter climates, eg. the Canadian Prairies and U.S. Great Plains. Last weekend I replaced my Tympanis with my MG 12's. After packing and moving the Tympani boxes around I connected the 12's. The music was sounding good but of course I had my tape-measure and was tweaking their position as we Maggie owners love to do. I had the end of the tape close to my metal rack and Wham!!
The preamp ramped the volume to Max with the expected distortion. I finally recovered and hit the power button but it was too late.The damage was limited to 2 blown fuses. Needless to say any thoughts of fuse bypass have disappeared. After talking to my local dealer I learned that this is quite common in our climate. He has seen it happen with Bryston, and Boulder pre-amps and now we can add my Bel Canto to the list. Apparently a spark of static is all it takes with some of digital volume controls.
While not on the damage scale of his washing machine escapade, Sparky's tape-measure picture reminded me to post this caution. Be careful with that measuring tape Mark!!!
Edits: 02/10/15
DES
I have major Static issues, when it gets cold and dry my Preamp, a CJ CT-5, will kick itself into the stand-by all by itself...I have to re-select the input and then it is just fine...
When I go to shut it off, I ground myself 3-times...once on the rack, once on the wood plinth and once on the side of the Preamp, then push the power button...
I had a post on Amp/Preamp board on this site all bout static...many CJ owners have had similar issues with their tube preamps...
As I am typing this, it just kicked out, when I pushed the source...the speakers just popped big time...that has only happened a couple of times...but I hate it...
I have never had anything happen when I touch my speakers...BUT I have not touched them with anything Metal...so thank you for that great safety tip...
Nice to hear nothing serious happened to yours...add CJ to your list, too...
thanks again
Mark
This is Helga...she passed away 5 years ago this week...I still miss her still...
She was much smarter than her owner...When I would visit my family members, they were much more excited to see her than me...
Static in cold DRY Minnesoooota, has always been an issue...especially with CJ's I have owned...If I did not like the CT-5 as much as I do...it would be gone on the static issue...
6N30P tube is definitely not a 6922...the 6N30P has much more of "clinical clean" sound than the more romantic 6922...
Thanks for sharing your Sparky...
Mark
Yes and your Helga looks like it.
I was not too happy with the 6N23 either. It isn't as if they can't make good sounding tubes, the reissue tungsol gold lion and mullard label tubes are rather good if not quite to the standards of the best NOS Amperex Mullard and Siemens or Teles. They are all made at the same place.
My dearly departed Beagle Dachshund was also called by that name. Unlike you she never managed to make a flammable situation out of everything.
You give me an idea.
Drill holes in the current slab for REBAR. Build Forming Boxes where the speakers and gear need to go and POUR / FINISH. The rebar ties Old to New.
Make the boxes about 5" tall, and than make a raised floor for the REMAINDER of the room using the idea from the OP.
Some kind of insulation UNDER the floor would be nice, or you might end up with a boomy sound when you walk and potential sound interactions.
Too much is never enough
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