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In Reply to: RE: Tympani 1d ad posted by Zimmerman on August 01, 2012 at 21:05:47
I sent a note to the poster about the sensitivity and he responded with a friendly message, and amended his description on Audiogon. Thought I'd mention that since it gives me a positive sense of the seller.
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I have no doubt about the adv's legitimacy. However the description "new in the box" could possibly serve as a putoff. One could conclude from the title itself that these speakers have been sitting in their box for 30+ years, and no more. If I were in the seller's position, I would title them as being completely refurbished by its manufacturer, plus not presently being "socked". Currently the highest bid at Audiogon might cover the cost of his having shipped them to Magnepan, and not too much more. (At one time I was considering refurbishing my IV-As and the prices quoted to me were in that neighborhood, (using Magnepan's preferred shippers.) However I do find it odd that Magnepan is willing to warehouse them until an acceptable bid is placed. At this time Audiogon indicates the adv. has 10 more days until it expires. What happens at the end of the auction if no acceptable bid has been placed? Would Magnepan be willing to hold onto them for an additional period of time? Or would the seller have to inform Magnepan of how to cover them and then take delivery to himself? OTOH perhaps the seller is one of Magnepan's dealers and has some special clout. I seriously doubt that Magnepan would be willing to have this type of arrangement with me!
Yeah, agree that it should say "refurbished by Magnepan with completely new drivers" or something like that. Though from what I've seen of their repair operation, they do more than basic repairs -- they remanufacture them to the point at which they look (and presumably sound) new.
You'd have to ask Sheila what arrangements are available, I'm sure they'd be glad to ship to a different location (I may ask for this myself when I send my IVa's in, depending on when I move -- send them directly to my new address). And I imagine this guy isn't the first to make this arrangement, e.g., send them to Magnepan to be fixed then advertise them on Audiogon. Why pay for extra shipping, or, worse, take the risk that the company will fork lift them the way they did mine?
I doubt they're willing to act as a warehouse, though . . . if they don't sell, I imagine the seller will have to choose a sock color and take them back himself. But it's early in the auction for the bid price to mean anything, if it's like the auctions on Ebays the price will zoom up at the last moment.
Eons ago, being the original owner of a Tympani 1C, I had Magnepan refurbish these and they came back looking and sounding *better* than new. A UV resistant adhesive was used (the adhesive in my 1C went bad) and anything having even the smallest scratch on it, like the plate as well as screws for attaching the speaker wires was replaced. Them seemed better than new in every detail and I couldn't have been happier, even having sent their service department a letter expressing my sincere gratitude (for which they thanked me in a return letter).
I never saw any reason why Magnepan wouldn't or shouldn't ship to a different location (so please don't put any words in my mouth). However at the present time the highest bid is still only $578 and the buyer would have to tack onto that the cost of shipping. I feel it's unfair to ask Magnepan to hold onto these refurbished, and as of yet unsocked speakers, even if it be only for the length of the auction, whether or not they sell, so it would never have crossed my mind to ask them do that. Certainly they don't appear so desperate to do business to have to walk the extra mile, "good will" or not.
I don't know if an Audigon seller can indicate their reserve price by saying "bids start at $XXXX", as is the case for many eBay auctions. It would seem better than this beating around the bush, and if possible it still wouldn't prevent their selling price shooting up during the concluding minutes of the auction, and by *serious* bidders at that.
If Magnepan went back to making Tympanis, perhaps something similar to a IV-A, but with 20.7 fashioned drivers, and priced at $40K, might be a 'hit', but I can't, and could never have been able to afford that.
Sorry, it wasn't my intention to put words in anybody's mouth. If I say something that you didn't, it's either because I misunderstood you, or I'm just expressing my view dialectically, without meaning to imply that the OP holds it.
I think the purpose of a hidden reserve is to generate bidding action and excitement. Whether it actually serves that purpose in an online auction spread over many days, I don't know. But then I don't understand why people do bid early in the auction, since the price is established in the last minutes. I guess they figure it's a no-lose proposition -- if they offer a lowball price and for some strange reason nobody else bids, they have themselves a great deal, if not, it's just a click.
New Tympanis would definitely be pricier than the single-panel jobbies. I know that this is a concern for Wendell, and that in fact the increasing cost of making them is why they stopped (this per an old interview with Jim Winey). However, with expensive speakers selling well now, they could sell them -- I'm guessing for less than $40,000, though that's not out of line with what many high end speakers go for these days, indeed it would be a bargain compared to Magicos, YG's, etc.
Wendell doesn't want to lose their reputation as a value manufacturer, one which is central to the company's mission and identity. My own belief is that what's important here is that the speaker have high value relative to what it is, to the sound delivered. After all, we can already buy Maggies that cost only $600, and Maggies that cost more than $10,000. Every one is referred to as an amazing bargain in the reviews, and with good reason. So while a new Tympani would likely be out of my reach as well, it wouldn't harm Magnepan's reputation for affordability with me, as long as it had the high bang-for-the-buck of their other speakers.
I'd also remind Wendell that if they make the damn thing everybody and his brother will stop nagging him about it. :-)
But we'll have to see what they decide, there are other issues as well. The official word as of some months back was that no decision had been made, but they have been discussing the possibility. The guys there like Tympanis just as much as we do!
Meanwhile, Wendell is finding that he can get Tympani-like performance in large rooms with a modular approach using DWM's, and they've started sending them to dealers to demonstrate with the .7's. So that could be another route.
Why would a pair of Tympanis cost $40k? The drivers are just like any other Magnepan, just an additional bass driver and a push-pull tweeter than is far from the ribbon tweeter of later models. It seems that a 20.7 have about the same numbers of magnets as the Tympanis. Why should it be more expensive to build Tympanis than 20.7?
Roger Gustavsson
Well, it's definitely more expensive. I asked Jim Winey about that and he said it's a lot like making three pairs of Maggies. Not the materials so much I think as the labor, that's three panels to be routed and installed, four drivers to be built and installed. Plus bigger boxes, higher shipping, three socks, extra wood trim pieces, etc. So while the $40,000 figure sounds too high to me too, it would have to cost more than a 20.7. Escalating cost was the original reason they stopped making them (this also according to Jim Winey, in a magazine interview years ago).
Still sounds strange to me. A three-panel Tympani I-D is not more complicated than building three MG 1.7. Sure, it will be about three times more expensive but far from $40000! I think the MG-models are more complicate to build than those single driver Tympani-panels. I think, the main reason Magnepan stopped producing Tympanis may be the size of the speakers, they were BIG. Not everyone would accept such large speakers!
Roger Gustavsson
a level 3 difficulty convincing the wife to shoe horn those in the livingroom.
If you thought slippin' in a pair of 1.6's past her was difficult, try six 20.7s!
No doubt they'd sound fantastic I'm thinking...
may the bridges I burn light the way...
Yeah, they appeal mostly to people with dedicated sound rooms. Naturally, that limits the market.
Now, if they designed living rooms right, they'd have acoustically transparent projection screen fabric along one wall, with a few feet behind it. So you could put your speakers behind the screen, and no one would be the wiser, and also use it with a projector for home theater -- all without your wife ever catching on. (Of course, she'd want to know why she couldn't put a sofa against it, and hang pictures in the middle . . . )
Well, yeah, the $40,000 is too high. It would be more expensive than the 20.7, though.
I asked Jim Winey about it. I'd read an interview years ago in which he said that the Tympanis had gotten too expensive to make and when I asked him, he confirmed that.
If you're talking a new Tympani, say you're talking the same technology as in the 20.7, plus one extra driver. So you start with the cost of a 20.7, then add the driver, the extra frames, shipping, bigger boxes, driver testing, etc. In addition, as you said, they're big and either need a dedicated room, or something with which to blackmail your wife. The smaller the model the more they sell so as you say they wouldn't sell as many Tympanis as 20.7's. That means that R&D has to be amortized over fewer units and it would presumably be more expensive on that count too. Then they'd need some new tooling, CNC programming, etc. -- not sure what if anything they still have that they could reuse. All of that means it would have to be more expensive than the 20.7's, though not I think $40,000.
The market has changed -- expensive speakers are selling well, many much pricier -- so I don't think they'd have any trouble selling them today. Wendell's concern with the price has more to do with the company's reputation for value. He takes that very seriously and its integral to their philosophy, going back to Jim Winey who told me that he doesn't want to be a company that sells only a few ultra-high-priced speakers like most other high end speaker companies.
There are also some other arguments against, e.g., would dealers make room to show them. At this point, a lot of people can't even hear the 20.7's. They also have limited resources and other new products they're working on, so they have to decide if it's the best use of their resources. Still, as others have reported, it's been under consideration.
An 20.7 with an extra bass driver should not double the price of the 20.7. They can just build a 20.7 without the mid and tweeter section. Tooling and CNC-programming should not be necessary as I see it. I do not believe they would make a large number of speakers in this price categori... How many Tympanis were made? How many 20.1?
Roger Gustavsson
I assume a Tympani would be three panels, but of course that isn't certain, they could do something like you suggest, e.g., a double 20.7.
In any case, even a three panel Tympani probably wouldn't cost twice as much as a 20.7. But it would be more expensive.
According to Wendell, the smaller the speaker, the more they sell. I doubt very much they'd do this without tooling, doing everything by hand would drive the price into the stratosphere. They do have equipment in the repair department that can be used to repair models that are no longer in production but it isn't part of the regular factory workflow, where speakers are made in batches of a model at specialized stations.
Well Josh, you have been to the factory. Pictures of it show some jigs, a streching table for the Mylar, how they sort the plastic bonded magnets, the CNC milling machine etc. The production seems to rely on charing as many parts as possible. The magnets, the perforated sheet metal, the particle board etc. There seems to be a lot of manual work involved, like glueing the wire to the Mylar. The push-pull drivers need special jigs, the hinged ones. Most of these manufactoring steps can be replicated at home. What is difficult, it is to get the know-how that come by trial and error. Just look at the 3.7 and how it is different from the earlier designs. The tension/clamping of the diaphragm must have taken some time to optimise!Tympanis before the IV, had some panels requireing more work than later ones. Sure, nowdays, they buy the perforated sheet metal customised. The first years they used standard sheet metal. The drivers of I-C, IIIA, I-D and IIIB are very similar. 12x60" (bass) or 8x48" (tweeters) sheet metal, spacers of 1/8" particle board, magnets has the same dimensions etc.
Roger Gustavsson
Edits: 08/04/12
Yep. Their assembly line is optimized for small scale batch manufacturing, e.g., they can swap out a jig at a station and work on 3.7's while the other station is working on 1.7's. It's a very professional factory operation and over the years they've learned many tricks to improve efficiency and economy. The skill of the factory staff is impressive as well -- they work with impressive speed and have a great knowledge of what to check, pitfalls, etc.
There's lots of black art in the design and manufacturing. Every time I talk to Wendell I learn something else that I didn't know about why they do what they do.
I can't imagine where they find the time to do the R&D. But I know they've done an immense amount of it over the years, because whenever I suggest an idea or one of us mentions something here Wendell says "Oh, yeah, Jim Winey tried that a few decades ago." They're inveterate tinkerers and have tried lots of stuff that we don't always see, e.g., Wendell said a little while back that Jim has been experimenting with Maggie headphones for years.
They definitely standardize as much as possible. Mark Winey said that one of the requirements for the .7's was that they have the same form factor as the earlier models. That way, they could use many of the same jigs, as well as boxes, magnets, MDF, perforated metal, etc.
Right.
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