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In Reply to: RE: Shifting instruments and room layout posted by Satie on March 02, 2012 at 13:49:42
Thanks for the great feedback all! Unfortunately (I use that word loosely) I got the Marantz today and swapped out the Onkyo. BIG, BIG difference. The short story is it will take some time for my ears to calibrate before I go tinkering. I plan on getting my placement down before I bi-amp the speakers.
The long story:
I hooked up the Marantz and was very pleased immediately. I turned it up pretty loud and noticed the bass was completely out-of-control loud: I had to turn the bass down 5db on the receiver to be reasonable. My rule of thumb is if something sounds bad enough to adjust treble or bass, or a graphic equalizer, then something else is wrong (I don't think I have terribly acute ears for minor EQ changes).
Luckily I quickly identified the issue: the big ol' "bass traps" in the corners. They were absorbing bass, sure enough, but they were absorbing a heck of a lot more higher frequency. With the poor Onkyo barely able to move the woofers, that helped. The Marantz amps actually have some push, so it was not helpful.
I pulled out the TV and laid one of the panels on it's side against the wall behind it, and put the other under the left-hand side window, right next to the woofer. Bingo!
Anyways as I said it'll be some time before I can effectively tinker. Once I have it set up nicely, to the saudering iron for the bi-amp job!
Follow Ups:
OK it's been a while but now it's time. Some BIG changes since I last posted this. First is the whole new setup: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=mug&m=186815I took the big panels down from the corners. I placed one sideways under the window, at an angle to hopefully get bass bouncing out from the corner. I did the same with the other panel behind the TV.
I pulled the TV out to match the speakers. I moved the speakers wider.
Still had some issues. Then the big one (thanks Satie! (I think it was Satie in another thread)):
I unplugged the subwoofer and the woofers. I took a track with just a violin and a piano and, using audacity, deleted one of the tracks. The image was perfectly centered. Then I plugged the woofers back in and unplugged the tweeters. The image was WAAY left. I bumped up the gain on the right woofer until it was centered.
It was like wearing someone else's prescription and then putting your own glasses back on. I didn't realize how smeared the imaging really was. I could tell a little bit, but now I can't believe I was able to stand it. It also explains perfectly why Peter Gabriel would pace back and forth while singing - the image depended on what notes he was singing... the lower he sang, the more he strolled off to the left. Also, ear fatigue went from moderate-low to near-non existent at loud levels. (Neighbors probably won't appreciate this tweak). Last, the background seems a lot "blacker."
So the only issue now, is I'm noticing a lot of the imaging is up above the TV. I don't know if the TV is blocking the reflection at ear level, or if it's the panels at the same height, a combination, or something else entirely. It's mildly bothersome.
Big thanks to you all!
Edits: 03/08/12
Also fixed - the extremely loud bass I complained about in another thread. The drivers on my sound card were sorely out of date. Not only fixed the bass, but it also fixed a lot of artifacts I was hearing on my highly-compressed death metal albums. I had just assumed it was a problem on the album end. I'm excited now that I know some of my favorite albums aren't unlistenable.
Funny thing: I can pop a CD into my bluray player, and then play the same song (lossless wma) from my computer. Both optical into the receiver. The computer sounds approximate 1E6 times better (like it has life). How to explain? both digital all the way into the receiver. I doubt it's the reader on the bluray - no problems with picture by any stretch. Maybe it's whatever device converts the bits into light for the optical?
I've been far busier than I expected this week and anyway was waiting for your new hardware to get in place. I can see you are having quite some fun!
I need to read your other related postings elsewhere in the forum this weekend and see what to suggest in view of your changes and findings. While I do this, here is something to try on the CD vs PC issue.
1. The sound card software may be processing the audio in any of various effects. Ordinarily, we don't want any of it. OTOH, it may be that you like them, which is just fine. I am pretty sure that Metal music will not necessarily suffer if this is the case. In any event, you may want to make sure that you know where it can be turned off if it is on by default. Most cards do use the effects by default.
2. I don't know which BR/CD player you have but unless it is a well -configured PC (not easy), most good CD players will best a PC. When the time comes that you do want to max-out the PC sound, ask Dawnrazor, Play-mate and the rest of the gang over at the Digital-PC Audio asylum. Done right, many players start loosing the battle vs PC.
3. Assuming you have a decent BR/CD player, I would try these easy things:
- swap optical cables and compare
- swap optical inputs and compare
- get a decent coax cable for the player (it may have been optimized for this, plus it is usually the best choice anyway, though HDMI is getting there)
- if HDMI transfer is available, try it.
- check the player's setup options. You would be surprised at the stuff that may be "off" (or "on") in some models.
- check the player's power cord, if removable. If it is not factory or better, you may have inadvertently used a PC cord (bad thing in most cases). BTW, the same goes for your other audio hardware, mind those power cords.
- borrow another good player to compare
Have fun!
All the effects for the sound card are turned off (which isn't to say it isn't coloring the sound otherwise).
I am 99% certain the issue is the bluray. All the CDs I put through it recently (heavy metal, live country, and a flogging molly album) sound dead and lifeless. I can't say I've experienced an overly compressed album, but that's exactly what I imagine an overly compressed album to feel like. I have to turn up the volume to uncomfortable levels before it starts feeling life-like.
The other reason I'm sure it's the bluray player is, if it isn't, there is SOMETHING else wrong with my system and the soundcard is masking it. And I'm not ready for that emotionally :-)
I'll try what you suggest when I'm ready to accept the consequences of knowing the results.
What did you do about the odd angle in your room? I think the issue is the room with the bass being pulled left. I'd think I'd have even better results if I could balance the room and even out the gains.
What brand/model is the player?
Anyway, later I'll have to annotate this old drawing with comments that may apply in your case but some of it is obvious. You may have seen the drawing elsewhere in the forum.
Notice how I had to even out the corners. I had structural truncation of one. I had to match it with wood at the other end. It doesn't need to be exact but it helps to match the angle. In your case, it is a little more challenging. You can test it with some cheap wood planks and, if it works, make it a pretty-looking design fixture that can be removed later.
Regarding your comment earlier of too high a center image: Not shown here is that my equipment rack has a black burlap double layer cover/smoothed curtain. It was an accidental discovery at first, intended to make the hanging cables and equipment less obvious. It turned out to have a few key advantages. One of them was that the rear imaging became far more level.
I also use clear burlap behind the TV as sound enhancement (& decoration*). I did this after the late Al Sekela told me that he used cotton sheets behind his large TV. In my case, it further improves layering of the image behind the TV to match imaging behind the speakers. It also helped a little to lower the image at the back.
There's more detail to cover but these items above may be useful in your case.
One thing that we need to address in your room is what happens in front of the speakers. The point is, what happens behind the Maggies is always key but what happens in front of them can still be very important.
*When the blinds are open, the sliding glass door behind the equipment makes it all visible to people in the nearby park.
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