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In Reply to: RE: Lovin my MMG's, except..... posted by Peter Gunn on February 17, 2012 at 08:49:46
"This guy and his post and actions are a microcosm of what goes on with many people when they come to this past time. Enthusiastic but without experience they are all over the map in their rush for instant gratification, trying and doing so many things without the understanding of why changes are happenening, and doing so many things at once it's impossible to know which change even had the effect. Despite that they still jump to premature conclusions that are usually wrong (as he did) and the worst part is it appeared he was already ready to write that incorrect assumption down as gospel. That's why I responded."
Ok...wait a second. I have clearly touched a nerve here...and certainly unwittingly so. Again, with all due respect Mr. Gunn (and I mean that with total sincerity) I have to take issue with your comments. I'll preface by saying I am absolutely, positively, in no way here to make waves or attempt to dispute the knowledge that you and many others here have commited much time and effort to acquiring. You said earlier you weren't looking for an argument. I don't know if that was directed at me (seems I've been relegated to third person status which makes it tricky at times to discern where your comments are being directed) or another inmate with which you may have had a prior debate.....no matter. Point is I don't want an agrument either. I want to solve my problem. And I don't see anywhere I have made absolute statements about my findings that prop them up as gospel. I shared my observations in an attempt to provide information so that others may take that information and use it to offer me recommendations or correct me when I'm mistaken. That's it. Nothing more. If I'm the two-hundred-and-thirty-second person to ask the same tired questions then please accept my apology if I've wasted anybody's time. I'm no virgin to discussion forums and every time I hear someone complain of this I can't help but think of the comment "if you don't like what's on the station, change the channel". I appreciate the input...but dammit please don't allow me to be an imposition. That's the LAST thing I want to be to anybody.
And about being enthusiastic and inexperienced....Christ man, we all have to start somewhere. Remember, you did to. And damn straight I might be all over the map for a period of time as I explore and experiment with this stuff. I'm on a quest for knowledge through my own hands on trial and error combined with the knowledge others are willing to share. I'll get there eventually, so cut us newbies some slack. And instant gratification? You know, I don't think I'm even gonna' go there.
Hell, if I have a good year at the shop I may be a future customer of yours. But I'm not going to want to do business with someone that's jaded and bitter. You may not give a rat's ass that I feel that way ...but there it is just the same. I still love this stuff... regardless of whether I upset one of the last people in this communty I would want to upset or not.
"Understanding that the room you use is one of the single biggest factors in determining how your system sounds has always been the hardest nut to drive home. People think they can just plunk the system down anywhere and it should work, and that simply isn't how it is at all. In fact the better the gear the more finnicky it will usually be about the room it is in, and in contrast rooms that are wonderful sounding can make rather ordiniary stuff sound simply magical."
Again, not sure if this is directed at me but, regardless....AMEN, BROTHER! You're preaching to your choir here. I'm a hardcore proponent of getting the room right before anything else and my room demostrates that. It's been measured with a nice flat response and good decay and I've done that with fundamental and slightly advanced treatments. I'm not bragging....just making sure it's understood I'm fully aware of the importance of having a room with a good response and have made that paramount in my listening environment. I knew I had problems when I acquired a set of Vandersteen 2ci's and they sounded like crap. But I put the time and effort into my room's acoustics and got the Vandersteens to singing through room treatments and nothing else. From that point on I've been a room treatment junkie. But as I said before, my room was treated for monopolar designs and I'm slowly figuring out what to do in MY ROOM to make it more accomodating and responsive to a dipolar design.
I may have very well blackballed myself here and if that's the case then so be it. Not my intention but sometimes you step in a pile of shit even when you're watching where you're going.
Follow Ups:
I wrote that before you replied to my original post correcting what you meant and where you yourself admitted it appeared you were using a shotgun approach. As I said, I only had your words to go by, I wasn't there, and a rapid shotgun approach that leads to confusion and premature conclusions is the norm, not the exception with people new to things.
If you knew me you'd know I have repeatedly said I was as stupid as anyone when I started. (almost a poster boy) Unfortunately it's practically a requirement when starting any new pastime. However, as I said your post very much mirrors the kind of things done and said by people teetering on the rails, I only pointed that out, I was not belittling you for it.
The comments about the room were meant in general for everyone, because a lot of people that should know better still seem to think they can get away with murder with their room, and they always blame room issues on anything but that. I don't know if it's because they don't know how to go about fixing it or they are just lazy, but far too many people do very little about the room the system goes in.
In fact when people post system pics the first thing I look at is the room, never the gear, and more often than not I'm shocked at what they consider to be acceptable... or even think it's good. If more time was spent here there'd be a lot more happy audiophiles. That is my only point.
Please note nothing I said was an attack against you, it only seemed like your method was ill considered so I noted it. I am not mad at you, trying to fight with you, or blackballing you. You pointed out the post was worded less than optimally. That's fine.
The only real fact at hand is that turning the speakers resulted in midrange droput which means you have a room issue. The speakers seemingly suddenly brighter or shill means you're fixing that issue, because stock I feel they are shrill. What I said before about resolving your entire dilemma still goes.
Wait... I decided I better read your other post... - Oh, and you suggested ceiling corner treatments...floor to ceiling superchunk broadband corner absorbers were the first acoustic treatments I did to my room.
That may account for why the room is too absorbing and why the midrange vanished. OK, my last bit of advice: Do not do anything before you know you need it.
I constantly see people adding RFI chokes, line filters, room absorbers etc.. before they even listen to the system. I ask them why and they say "Because everyone else does it." The fact is things like that can help IF you have the problem, however if you do not they often CAUSE a problem. Perfect audio is about minimalism - No more than we need, and no less than we need. You should not have treated the room before listening to it, and for a good month or more as well. You need to give your brain time to form enough files to make sound comparative judgements, and for countless reasons many sessions are needed.
Good luck with it. I am going to be very busy this week and likely won't be back here, so email me if you wish to discuss anything further.
It's all about the music...
And FWIW Mr. Gunn I do appreciate the recommendations you've shared to help me with my quest to improve my Maggies. There's little argument that your design is widely regarded as a success and I'd probably be wise to use it as a template for my future mods.
Oh, and you suggested ceiling corner treatments...floor to ceiling superchunk broadband corner absorbers were the first acoustic treatments I did to my room.
Having been around here for quite a while, I feel it's safe to say PG's comments were in reference to alot of the flack he took early on after he developed the Magnestand mod. In those days there were even poeple who'd never even heard a Gunned Maggie who said his ideas were wrong and improvements he heard were imagined!
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