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In Reply to: RE: Lovin my MMG's, except..... posted by tinnitusintx on February 15, 2012 at 21:20:01
It's not my "recipe", it belongs to Magnepan because every speaker they made for the first 30 years had the mylar in the rear and it was a practice they defended in print religiously because in their own words "they sound best that way."
Why they changed in the 90's they never said, however my guess is because people no longer understand you can't drop maggies in any room and expect perfection, and the rear wave is the one most easily effected by bad rooms, so "todays" people are likely to hear an anomoly and blame the speaker (like you did) when the truth is the room is at fault.
You are never going to find happiness using this shotgun approach to modding, especially when you draw incorrect conclusions from the results you are given. I also don't understand why people think raising speakers improves bass, as the further any speaker gets from the floor bass almost always suffers most.
There is only 1 certainty here - your room has issues. This is a certainty because your speakers told you. Perhaps it would be prudent to slow your charge to the finish line and correct problems one at a time, completely, before moving on to the next alteration.
That being the case put them back the wrong (right) way and keep adjusting the room until the mids re-appear. It's not as if the speaker stopped making them. The difference is that way they are trying to provide them in a more ambient way thru room interaction rather than blowing them right at you, and something in the room is absorbing, deflecting or killing that missing wave spectrum. Regardless of what you eventually do, does it not make sense to isolate this issue and correct it?
It's all about the music...
Follow Ups:
First, thanks a million to all of you for taking the time from your schedules to help me work through this.
And to you Mr. Gunn....your reputation certaily precedes you so thank you very much for contributing your analysis and offering a bit of sage advice.
However, with all due respect Mr. Gunn I'm going to have to address your "shotgun approach" comment. Not that you're wrong for saying that... looking back over my posts I can see the manner in which I've described my methods certainly does make them come across as "shotgun". But the fact of the matter is my tweaks have been fairly systematic and empirical. At any rate, I've tried to perform my mods/tweaks one at a time when possible (some mods by nature address more than one issue simultaneously) and live with the result for a full listening session or two with my reference tracks before I determine which issue should be addressed next.
I agree, my room is one issue and still needs some fine tuning to optimize the dipolar radiation pattern and I'm getting there slowly but surely as it's a work in progress (and yes, I suppose I'm a little guilty of "racing to the finish" but I'm not one to "let the grass grow under my ass"...if you know what I mean :^]).
So, with that, please allow me to offer a chronologically accurate, step by step description of my methodology. My apologies for not starting out this way.
My room was intitially very well treated for monpolar cone/box speakers and when I first set the MMGs up I did'nt like them at all. First thing I did was remove the absorption panels from the front wall and this helped imaging and soundstage but fidelity was lacking. Next I located what I felt was optimum placement for my room and performance on all levels improved once again. I then built the diffusion panels and set them up as you see them behind the speakers and they made a considerable improvement in fidelity...almost profound, actually. After that I replaced the factory stands with the 90 degree bracket mod to get them upright. This helped with clarity as well but the overall presentation really took a turn for the better (bigger...in a good way) when I got them up off the ground and on top of the subs. Now, I won't argue with anyone that 16" off the ground and on top of subs is not optimum, but the improvement over ground level was undeniable and a second set of critical ears agreed enthusiastically. Next I bypassed the fuses and attenuators and realized yet another improvement in fidelity. At this point the improvement in SQ was so vastly improved over my first impression with them in my room that I decided to leave the room and speakers alone switched my focus to trying out the different amps and preamps I had sitting around (and even with that there is still no verdict but I've settled on the Emotiva USP-1 and Emotiva XPA-2 for several weeks now in attempt to stabilized that variable).
After living with that arrangment for the past several weeks and making note of what I felt were problem areas I moved forward with my latest tweaks to the front corners of the room (removing some absorption and creating additional diffusion) and the mounting/positioning of the speakers (prototype stands to get them off the subs, closer to the ground, and more rigid).
Generally speaking I think the speakers sound outstanding compared to what I've been exposed to. Now I'm getting down to really fine tuning them to the point that I minimize, or eliminate, those "acceptable compromises". Just about anyone that listens to them now thinks they sound incredible and only the most critical of ears understands how I can hear room for improvement. So here I am for help from all of you salty dogs.
So last night I set them back to vertical and realized an immediate improvement in clarity and, to some degree, dynamics. Next I pulled the sidewall first reflection absorption down. To my delight this widened the soundstage more than I've ever heard it before but unfortunately with a catch. The top end is a touch shrill now and can get uncomfortable on certain tracks. I'm still interested in trying diffusion on the sidewalls...perhaps in conjunction with absorption. I'm thinking of making up similar panels to the ones I have behind the speakers except drill lots of holes in them and place 703 panels behind the diffusion panel.
But ultimately I see I need to make a more serious effort with my stands and address the networks. Prepare to have your collective brains picked as I think I may pass on the 1.6's and move forward with (seriously) modding the MMGs.
"So last night I set them back to vertical and realized an immediate improvement in clarity and, to some degree, dynamics. Next I pulled the sidewall first reflection absorption down. To my delight this widened the soundstage more than I've ever heard it before but unfortunately with a catch. The top end is a touch shrill now and can get uncomfortable on certain tracks. I'm still interested in trying diffusion on the sidewalls...perhaps in conjunction with absorption. I'm thinking of making up similar panels to the ones I have behind the speakers except drill lots of holes in them and place 703 panels behind the diffusion panel."
This is all behaving as it's supposed to. I love it when that happens.
The trick now to taming the high end is to add more HF absorption to the room, but in a different place. Season to taste. It doesn't really matter where, as long as the application is symmetrical and not at the first reflection points, where you do want reflections because they make the sound more spacious.
Has the Emotiva amp improved the impact of your drum playback?
Do you still have subwoofers around, or at least box speakers with strong bass drivers and an etra amp?
If so, get yourself a cheap commercial active crossover, like the Behringer 3400 - or get a better Rane or Ashly unit if the budget alows - and you can integrate the subwoofers or the box speakers' bass into the system and get the extra bass impact you want.
PG's crossover upgrade is also worth pursuing.
Satie,
Prior to the Emotiva I was running a Soundcraftsmen MA5002....which sounded great through the Maggies. Warm and dynamic and I really liked it. It went into protection mode shortly after I got the MMGs and after that happened the XPA-2 crossed my path and I took it in. I didn't get a chance to do a back to back comparo against the 5002, but it seemed to offer more detail with perhaps slightly better dynamics. I do have a freshly recapped and modded Hafler 500 that I compared to the Emotiva and it just didn't have the presence of the Emotiva. I can say with certainty the Emotiva has detail almost to a fault....but I suspect as I improve the fidelity of the MMGs I'll come to better appreciate the Emotiva. However, the Soundcraftsmen went out for a complete refurb with new output transistors and upgraded, higher value caps. I should have it back next week and I'm pretty excited to hear it. It's a great amp.
Yes, I have dual DIY subs with 12" Dayton Titanic MkIII drivers in a slot ported box tuned to 35 hz but I'm gonna seal them and see how that sounds. They integrate with the Maggies pretty good, but could be better. Surprisingly fast for a ported box, though.
RickyM,
Nice to have someone familiar offer a little Asylum perspective so thanks for sharing the info. I don't want to ruffle feathers but, you know, us Texans have that pride thing.....for better or worse.
Yeah, I've been a little busy. The Maggies just compel me to want more. They're so good when you start to hear the deficiencies you just have to get on it and make them that much better. My stands were just an attempt to see how responsive the MMGs were to a few adjustments I felt were necessary. I'm all about a more concerted, serious effort to get the most out of them. BTW, the link to the pictures of your Quasi-Gunned project you PM'd me on AK wouldn't open. I'd sure like to see your build.
And are there pics anywhere of the 'sticks mod?
T-TX, here are some pics. They may make more sense if you check the link at the bottom. No rocket science here...fireworks give me a hard enough time.
1. Do note the black tape at the top of the oak stick (1"x2"). It allows the cloth to slide back over the top without snags or tears.
2. In some cases, the original cloth will not be able to fully reach the bottom of the MMGs after the mod. [It suits me well for access to the contacts, which I later cover with another cloth segment. New covers will be ordered later.]
3. These are original-design MMGs. The frame sides on the newer ones are wider, perhaps allowing for a slightly wider stick on each side.
4. When covered back, I also use the original wood trim. I would not advise to leave the edges soft...but you are welcome to experiment.
5. Re-tighten to torque or just check every 6 months during first year.
Here are a few "assembly stage" pics of my MMG's. Unfortunately, I never took any pics during construction.
Damn pretty sight, Rickey!
I am not envious...I am not envious...I am not envious...(97 more times and ten flogs should do it, i hope : - ))
Boy I'll tell ya' what. If I find someone selling the same "Edge-Glued Hardwood Panels" that I used for the MMG's in the size I need for my 2.5's, it's on!
Maybe I should mosey over to Lowes?
Search for them as custom-made online. Here at the bottom is one source I just found. They do have Poplar.
Also, if it works for you, check the Janka hardness index. Poplar is like 300 vs the oaks of various types > 1200. For enhanced Stixbees I am looking into either Hickory, Persimmon, or perhaps even Ipe. These 3 are probably overkill in the mode that you frame...and much harder to work on.
As none of us were there we only had your words... which did lend the impression of a bootlegger flying down a dirt road at midnight :^ )
Let's simplify it. It appears you believe some modding or alterations are needed to both your MMG and your room to fully enjoy them. I agree with that.
As we are not there we have to assume the room you'll resolve on your own in time. It does however sound like you could benefit from treating the ceiling corners. May not seem like it would matter but in some rooms it makes a huge difference.
As for the maggies, it seems you have 3 options.
1 - Keep trying every mod every jack, jim and charlie recommends until it magically comes together.
2 - Pick one of them, jack, jim or charlie and do what they reccommend and nothing else.
3 - Say to hell with everyone and work thru it on your own.
In my experience #1 does not work and leads to frustration. #3 is only viable (and in fact is required) if you feel nobody else solved the problem to your satisfaction. That means you should logically go with #2.
Choose wisely, and good luck. :^ )
BTW, since I don't spend time here like I used to if you have an important question for me, email me, I may not see it if you post. Also, I do not disagree that heaven can be found in MMG's. It can be if they are altered properly so you have not made an unwise choice.
It's all about the music...
This "shrill" may be turn out to be a common thing with raised MMGs. I am just speculating but I am researching it these days. It is hard for me to be sure because my MMGs are of the original design. These have somewhat different "stringing", with less tweeter runs (6 vs 8 in newr models).
For years, I left my MMGs on the floor and standing straight, 90 degress. Though I tested raising them early on, they were not yet as optimized as today. So, I did not catch the "shrill" thing earlier.
Last year, I started raising them (long story). The "shrill" started showing up. The measurements mainly indicate a peak at and around 3khz...smack in the area were the ear is very sensitive. (There's another peak further up close to the 6khz range, but less strong)
If this is related at all, for now, I can suggest what PG must have discovered very early on. A slight tilt backward. PG has always said that they sound better this way. I can only say that when raised, MINE stop displaying the peak as they are progressively tilted. At just around 4-5 degrees, it pretty much goes away.
There is a price for me to pay if I tilt. I am fighting to avoid it here with no tilt.
Peter! I am getting old for not betting that you would show up after such comments as were made. It is always good to see you around.
I hope we can agree to steer ourselves away from the debate on mylar front/back for now. As you well said, there's plenty of opportunity for improvement elsewhere.
Yes, we're both getting old...... :^ )
I don't post much anymore because too much of the "old crowd" here is gone, either because they finally got what they wanted or no longer care, and all the new people are starting at square one putting forth comments and ideas like what we went thru never happened... and I don't have the desire to go thru every discussion (and argument) all over again. I suppose that's a sign of getting old. Anyway, if you new people want to save time, go thru the archives... believe me, it's ALL been said and discussed.
Anyway, that's the rub with our hobby. Listening is a personal issue, and it's clear not everyone hears the same way, so that means it is a matter of taste and stating absolutes is a slippery slope. However that does not necessarily mean we cannot make some assumptions of truths, or at least generalizations. I think we have to if we want to make any kind of progress, individually or as a group.
This guy and his post and actions are a microcosm of what goes on with many people when they come to this past time. Enthusiastic but without experience they are all over the map in their rush for instant gratification, trying and doing so many things without the understanding of why changes are happenening, and doing so many things at once it's impossible to know which change even had the effect. Despite that they still jump to premature conclusions that are usually wrong (as he did) and the worst part is it appeared he was already ready to write that incorrect assumption down as gospel. That's why I responded.
Understanding that the room you use is one of the single biggest factors in determining how your system sounds has always been the hardest nut to drive home. People think they can just plunk the system down anywhere and it should work, and that simply isn't how it is at all. In fact the better the gear the more finnicky it will usually be about the room it is in, and in contrast rooms that are wonderful sounding can make rather ordiniary stuff sound simply magical.
Time for our meds....
It's all about the music...
"This guy and his post and actions are a microcosm of what goes on with many people when they come to this past time. Enthusiastic but without experience they are all over the map in their rush for instant gratification, trying and doing so many things without the understanding of why changes are happenening, and doing so many things at once it's impossible to know which change even had the effect. Despite that they still jump to premature conclusions that are usually wrong (as he did) and the worst part is it appeared he was already ready to write that incorrect assumption down as gospel. That's why I responded."
Ok...wait a second. I have clearly touched a nerve here...and certainly unwittingly so. Again, with all due respect Mr. Gunn (and I mean that with total sincerity) I have to take issue with your comments. I'll preface by saying I am absolutely, positively, in no way here to make waves or attempt to dispute the knowledge that you and many others here have commited much time and effort to acquiring. You said earlier you weren't looking for an argument. I don't know if that was directed at me (seems I've been relegated to third person status which makes it tricky at times to discern where your comments are being directed) or another inmate with which you may have had a prior debate.....no matter. Point is I don't want an agrument either. I want to solve my problem. And I don't see anywhere I have made absolute statements about my findings that prop them up as gospel. I shared my observations in an attempt to provide information so that others may take that information and use it to offer me recommendations or correct me when I'm mistaken. That's it. Nothing more. If I'm the two-hundred-and-thirty-second person to ask the same tired questions then please accept my apology if I've wasted anybody's time. I'm no virgin to discussion forums and every time I hear someone complain of this I can't help but think of the comment "if you don't like what's on the station, change the channel". I appreciate the input...but dammit please don't allow me to be an imposition. That's the LAST thing I want to be to anybody.
And about being enthusiastic and inexperienced....Christ man, we all have to start somewhere. Remember, you did to. And damn straight I might be all over the map for a period of time as I explore and experiment with this stuff. I'm on a quest for knowledge through my own hands on trial and error combined with the knowledge others are willing to share. I'll get there eventually, so cut us newbies some slack. And instant gratification? You know, I don't think I'm even gonna' go there.
Hell, if I have a good year at the shop I may be a future customer of yours. But I'm not going to want to do business with someone that's jaded and bitter. You may not give a rat's ass that I feel that way ...but there it is just the same. I still love this stuff... regardless of whether I upset one of the last people in this communty I would want to upset or not.
"Understanding that the room you use is one of the single biggest factors in determining how your system sounds has always been the hardest nut to drive home. People think they can just plunk the system down anywhere and it should work, and that simply isn't how it is at all. In fact the better the gear the more finnicky it will usually be about the room it is in, and in contrast rooms that are wonderful sounding can make rather ordiniary stuff sound simply magical."
Again, not sure if this is directed at me but, regardless....AMEN, BROTHER! You're preaching to your choir here. I'm a hardcore proponent of getting the room right before anything else and my room demostrates that. It's been measured with a nice flat response and good decay and I've done that with fundamental and slightly advanced treatments. I'm not bragging....just making sure it's understood I'm fully aware of the importance of having a room with a good response and have made that paramount in my listening environment. I knew I had problems when I acquired a set of Vandersteen 2ci's and they sounded like crap. But I put the time and effort into my room's acoustics and got the Vandersteens to singing through room treatments and nothing else. From that point on I've been a room treatment junkie. But as I said before, my room was treated for monopolar designs and I'm slowly figuring out what to do in MY ROOM to make it more accomodating and responsive to a dipolar design.
I may have very well blackballed myself here and if that's the case then so be it. Not my intention but sometimes you step in a pile of shit even when you're watching where you're going.
I wrote that before you replied to my original post correcting what you meant and where you yourself admitted it appeared you were using a shotgun approach. As I said, I only had your words to go by, I wasn't there, and a rapid shotgun approach that leads to confusion and premature conclusions is the norm, not the exception with people new to things.
If you knew me you'd know I have repeatedly said I was as stupid as anyone when I started. (almost a poster boy) Unfortunately it's practically a requirement when starting any new pastime. However, as I said your post very much mirrors the kind of things done and said by people teetering on the rails, I only pointed that out, I was not belittling you for it.
The comments about the room were meant in general for everyone, because a lot of people that should know better still seem to think they can get away with murder with their room, and they always blame room issues on anything but that. I don't know if it's because they don't know how to go about fixing it or they are just lazy, but far too many people do very little about the room the system goes in.
In fact when people post system pics the first thing I look at is the room, never the gear, and more often than not I'm shocked at what they consider to be acceptable... or even think it's good. If more time was spent here there'd be a lot more happy audiophiles. That is my only point.
Please note nothing I said was an attack against you, it only seemed like your method was ill considered so I noted it. I am not mad at you, trying to fight with you, or blackballing you. You pointed out the post was worded less than optimally. That's fine.
The only real fact at hand is that turning the speakers resulted in midrange droput which means you have a room issue. The speakers seemingly suddenly brighter or shill means you're fixing that issue, because stock I feel they are shrill. What I said before about resolving your entire dilemma still goes.
Wait... I decided I better read your other post... - Oh, and you suggested ceiling corner treatments...floor to ceiling superchunk broadband corner absorbers were the first acoustic treatments I did to my room.
That may account for why the room is too absorbing and why the midrange vanished. OK, my last bit of advice: Do not do anything before you know you need it.
I constantly see people adding RFI chokes, line filters, room absorbers etc.. before they even listen to the system. I ask them why and they say "Because everyone else does it." The fact is things like that can help IF you have the problem, however if you do not they often CAUSE a problem. Perfect audio is about minimalism - No more than we need, and no less than we need. You should not have treated the room before listening to it, and for a good month or more as well. You need to give your brain time to form enough files to make sound comparative judgements, and for countless reasons many sessions are needed.
Good luck with it. I am going to be very busy this week and likely won't be back here, so email me if you wish to discuss anything further.
It's all about the music...
And FWIW Mr. Gunn I do appreciate the recommendations you've shared to help me with my quest to improve my Maggies. There's little argument that your design is widely regarded as a success and I'd probably be wise to use it as a template for my future mods.
Oh, and you suggested ceiling corner treatments...floor to ceiling superchunk broadband corner absorbers were the first acoustic treatments I did to my room.
Having been around here for quite a while, I feel it's safe to say PG's comments were in reference to alot of the flack he took early on after he developed the Magnestand mod. In those days there were even poeple who'd never even heard a Gunned Maggie who said his ideas were wrong and improvements he heard were imagined!
[We both must have been posting at the same time. When I checked mine about the "shrill", yours showed up.]
I know what you mean about the newer crop. And it does feel a bit frustrating at times if the same stuff has to be rehashed. Still, it is nice to see so many new people. Which, in a sense, makes it all "new stuff". So, stay positive. I know you still enjoy it.
Anyway, you may be able to throw some perspective on the "shrill" mentioned earlier.
This may come as a shock to some people but I dislike arguing. I get no satisfaction from it at all. Because of that I really have no desire to rehash old ones.So while yes, it's always good to see new blood... I currently don't have the time or inclination to go thru it all over again, at least not right now. What also seems to effect my feelings is the first time it was the "first time", it was over new ground. I had broken a lot of walls and taken the conversation to places it hadn't been. Now it's just repetition.
So no, I don't think I enjoy it. I don't mind helping people because I appreciate help when I need it and helping was my goal. I did what I did in an effort to resolve the bickering and disagreement that went on here, to see if a real solution existed and then present it so people could get on with what matters.
Only too many would rather still argue, and they stand on their street corners demanding the world do as they say and that all the others are wrong. I myself stood on such a corner once. However as I dislike that and as I hope the work speaks for itself I got off my corner once my point was made.
All of that is why I post rarely anymore. However that may change... in time.
ANYWAY, I was so busy standing on my soapbox about not standing on a soapbox I didn't answer your question. I feel all maggies with QR tweeters are shrill. His room is also obviously absorbing if it's making whole regions vanish simply by turning the speaker. So he must have improved it enough that he's finally hearing the "real them". He should ideally install a better XO but failing that at the very least insert a 1.5 ohm resistor on the tweeter. (a duelund is best but a mills will work)
It's all about the music...
Edits: 02/17/12
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